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Home: Non-League Football Discussion: General Discussion:
National League Promotion

 

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007Dale
First Team Sub

Sep 26, 2017, 10:18 AM

Posts: 1065
Location:
Team(s): St Albans City, Leicester City

Post #51 of 65 (1380 views)
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Re: [DaveU] National League Promotion [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately


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I thought you said this rule was brought in as a consequence of the request of 3G clubs to allow them to be promoted to the NL?

I can understand the NL not wanting 3G pitches if it puts at risk their ability to promote two clubs. It feels like they've compromised to allow you (& others) in, but now you're complaining about the deal that was made.

For the record, I think it's a silly rule, but the NL doesn't want to be stuffed full of teams that can't be promoted.


Why is it that any club that lobbies for change is accused of whining or complaining? Should we go back to playing with no nets and only a rope for a crossbar, or even to when it was just an indeterminate
number of people playing kick and rush with an inflated pig's bladder through the village, the only rule being that you had to get it through your opponent's end of the village before they got it through yours.


Lobbying is one thing, threatening is another. Quote from Sutton United Manager:

"This will go legal because there's some people with quite serious money behind them who will invest in QC's and barristers to take the fight all the way"


ictoan
First Team Sub


Sep 26, 2017, 11:04 AM

Posts: 1134
Location: By the Sea, Sussex
Team(s):

Post #52 of 65 (1340 views)
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Re: [007Dale] National League Promotion [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately

Why shouldn't restrictions that seem unfair be tested in the courts. George Eastham won a transfer by going to court and so did Jean-Marc Bosman. If the EFL are confident their rules are fair then they will not fear to justify them before a judge.
BTW, I should think that the National League's threat to use this issue to demote teams could also end up in court.



There 'Ant no place like Sussex, until you goes above, 'Cause Sussex will will Sussex and Sussex wont be druv.

The North begins at Gatwick.

(This post was edited by ictoan on Sep 26, 2017, 11:09 AM)


KnowYourMarket
Man City Transfer Target!


Sep 26, 2017, 1:42 PM

Posts: 10514
Location: Longton, Stoke-on-Trent - Ar Bay a Brummie
Team(s): WBA, FC Saarbruecken, Brierley Hill Alliance (RIP)

Post #53 of 65 (1219 views)
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Re: [DaveU] National League Promotion [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately

So you could win the play off and refuse to rip up the pitch and get relegated? Maybe it could reprieve a team from relegation with a 3G pitch. So you finish 2nd with a 3G pitch and get relegated and finish 20th with a 3G and stay up... Laugh



Last ground visited: Rochester United. Avg Goal 15/16: 4.43 Avg att 15/16: 392. New grounds 15/16: 37


Richard Rundle
Man City Transfer Target!

Sep 26, 2017, 1:46 PM

Posts: 7336
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Post #54 of 65 (1215 views)
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Re: [DaveU] National League Promotion [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately

It's not the campaigning for change that's a problem, it's wanting to change rules all clubs signed up for this season. Putting forward a change for the 2018 AGM to take effect from 2018-19 would be a "proper" way to do it, but to want to change the rules that apply to this season, 2017-18 is what rubs people up the wrong way.

The ban on artificial pitches in the EFL and the seemingly arbritrary threat of a double-relegation if a club with an artificial pitch ends up in a promotion pitch both strike me as bad rules (particularly the latter) but that's what has been approved for this season.


bmavfc
Reserve Team Sub

Sep 26, 2017, 2:28 PM

Posts: 389
Location: Peterborough
Team(s): Aston Villa

Post #55 of 65 (1187 views)
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Re: [Richard Rundle] National League Promotion [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately

Exactly I don't agree with no 3G in FL but take them to court now not in June,next seasons leagues could well start in October.


In Reply To
It's not the campaigning for change that's a problem, it's wanting to change rules all clubs signed up for this season. Putting forward a change for the 2018 AGM to take effect from 2018-19 would be a "proper" way to do it, but to want to change the rules that apply to this season, 2017-18 is what rubs people up the wrong way.

The ban on artificial pitches in the EFL and the seemingly arbritrary threat of a double-relegation if a club with an artificial pitch ends up in a promotion pitch both strike me as bad rules (particularly the latter) but that's what has been approved for this season.



garethwrexy
Man City Transfer Target!

Sep 26, 2017, 6:06 PM

Posts: 8440
Location: whitford near holywell north wales
Team(s): wrexham and dulwich

Post #56 of 65 (1079 views)
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Re: [KnowYourMarket] National League Promotion [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately

Rather rip pitch up than miss out on promotion,



wrexham fc fa trophy winners 2013 !


TonyD
Reserve Team Regular

Sep 26, 2017, 6:41 PM

Posts: 638
Location: Purley
Team(s): Sutton United, Crystal Palace

Post #57 of 65 (1048 views)
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Re: [Richard Rundle] National League Promotion [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately


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It's not the campaigning for change that's a problem, it's wanting to change rules all clubs signed up for this season. Putting forward a change for the 2018 AGM to take effect from 2018-19 would be a "proper" way to do it, but to want to change the rules that apply to this season, 2017-18 is what rubs people up the wrong way.

The ban on artificial pitches in the EFL and the seemingly arbritrary threat of a double-relegation if a club with an artificial pitch ends up in a promotion pitch both strike me as bad rules (particularly the latter) but that's what has been approved for this season.


This confuses two different issues. The National League clubs have signed up to National League rules, one of which is a club that refuses promotion to the EFL gets relegated to the regional divison. The threat of legal action is against the EFL for not allowing FIFA approved pitches; no National League club has signed up for that rule because it is an EFL rule.

It wouldn't be necessary if the FA grew a pair and told the EFL that they have to accept FIFA approved pitches. You only have to see the plethora of youth teams, community teams, ladies teams, school teams and walking football teams using the Sutton United 3G to realise that these pitches are to the benefit of English football and the community in general. Which you would hope the FA would be encouraging.


genesimmons
Youth Team Sub

Sep 27, 2017, 1:13 PM

Posts: 123
Location: Chesterfield
Team(s): Gateshead

Post #58 of 65 (845 views)
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Re: [TonyD] National League Promotion [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately

The fact that Sutton are top and dover are in the mix despite loosing some key players along with Halifax's run of form shows how crazy the league is this season. How the hell do those teams do it, especially Dover like a cat with nine lives. Whilst clubs are arguing about 3g pitches they may be denied promotion on other aspects of the ground, not enough seating etc



You wanted the best, you got the best


ladderman
Man City Transfer Target!

Sep 27, 2017, 1:40 PM

Posts: 6792
Location: Bishop's Stortford
Team(s): Bishop's Stortford & Cambridge United

Post #59 of 65 (815 views)
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Re: [genesimmons] National League Promotion [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately

Any club that is in (at least ) their second season in conference prem has a grading that will allow them entry to the FL. They may then have to do work to stay there


broodleyhoo
Reserve Team Regular

Sep 27, 2017, 2:04 PM

Posts: 653
Location:
Team(s): Birmingham City, Selby Town, Keighley Cougars, Alvechurch CC

Post #60 of 65 (800 views)
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Re: [TonyD] National League Promotion [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately

Your 2nd para has it spot on.

Yes, in the early QPR/Luton days of artificial pitches the bounce etc was ludicrous.

But now artificial pitches allow players to express their skills on a truer surface, allow greater usage of the pitch, so more folk can play, require less grounds maintenance and are more resistant to weather-linked cancellations. What's not to like?

If we don't like 'plastic' well, are we going back going back to leather boots, leather balls with laces and square wooden goalposts.......

I appreciate as the rules stand, there's a problem re promotion - but what is it that's at the heart of the FAs problems with 3G surfaces?


007Dale
First Team Sub

Sep 27, 2017, 2:23 PM

Posts: 1065
Location:
Team(s): St Albans City, Leicester City

Post #61 of 65 (785 views)
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Re: [broodleyhoo] National League Promotion [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately


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Your 2nd para has it spot on.

Yes, in the early QPR/Luton days of artificial pitches the bounce etc was ludicrous.

But now artificial pitches allow players to express their skills on a truer surface, allow greater usage of the pitch, so more folk can play, require less grounds maintenance and are more resistant to weather-linked cancellations. What's not to like?

If we don't like 'plastic' well, are we going back going back to leather boots, leather balls with laces and square wooden goalposts.......

I appreciate as the rules stand, there's a problem re promotion - but what is it that's at the heart of the FAs problems with 3G surfaces?


The debate about pros and cons of 3G is one thing, clearly clubs see a benefit to installing it and it works fine for them. I personally have no strong opinion on it.

However, the point is that rules exist and all 3G clubs were aware of them when they installed the pitches. You can't force the FL to accept 3G pitches if they don't want them. I don't know the reason why they don't want them, but it is up to them to agree to.

Until that time, 3G pitches are banned from the FL. I would also point out that the ground has to be ready for FL inspection in March - there is no opportunity for any of those clubs to change the pitch if promoted as they will have already failed the ground grading - That's my reading of the FL regulations.

The separate debate about how the NL deals with a non-promoted team then rages. On the face of it, the 'double relegation' rule seems odd. However, I can partially sympathise with it - if more NL clubs lay a 3G pitch, the NL could end up regularly not being able to promote teams.


Richard Rundle
Man City Transfer Target!

Sep 27, 2017, 3:08 PM

Posts: 7336
Location:
Team(s):

Post #62 of 65 (761 views)
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Re: [007Dale] National League Promotion [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately


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You can't force the FL to accept 3G pitches if they don't want them. I don't know the reason why they don't want them, but it is up to them to agree to.



Why not? Every other league (at least those from Steps 3-7) was forced to accept them. Why should the EFL be different?


007Dale
First Team Sub

Sep 27, 2017, 3:51 PM

Posts: 1065
Location:
Team(s): St Albans City, Leicester City

Post #63 of 65 (747 views)
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Re: [Richard Rundle] National League Promotion [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately


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In Reply To
You can't force the FL to accept 3G pitches if they don't want them. I don't know the reason why they don't want them, but it is up to them to agree to.



Why not? Every other league (at least those from Steps 3-7) was forced to accept them. Why should the EFL be different?


Who forced them?

The national league wasn't forced - they voted to allow it.

Steps 3 onwards, maybe different to ensure all regions are aligned.


(This post was edited by 007Dale on Sep 27, 2017, 3:56 PM)


broodleyhoo
Reserve Team Regular

Sep 27, 2017, 4:16 PM

Posts: 653
Location:
Team(s): Birmingham City, Selby Town, Keighley Cougars, Alvechurch CC

Post #64 of 65 (732 views)
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Re: [007Dale] National League Promotion [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately

Yes, I understand the rules, and yes, as I've stated on a cricket thread, clubs accepted the rules at the start of a season so shouldn't start trying to change them mid season.

But my point is this.

Modern 3G pitches give a truer surface, so players can exhibit more skill. They can be used more often, allowing more teams to participate on a greater number of occasions, require less maintenance and are less subject to weather-related problems. So what is it that the EFL has against them?


shimtoan
Reserve Team Star


Sep 27, 2017, 5:13 PM

Posts: 844
Location: Dunkirk, Nottingham
Team(s): Dunkirk

Post #65 of 65 (712 views)
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Re: [broodleyhoo] National League Promotion [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately


In Reply To
Yes, I understand the rules, and yes, as I've stated on a cricket thread, clubs accepted the rules at the start of a season so shouldn't start trying to change them mid season.

But my point is this.

Modern 3G pitches give a truer surface, so players can exhibit more skill. They can be used more often, allowing more teams to participate on a greater number of occasions, require less maintenance and are less subject to weather-related problems. So what is it that the EFL has against them?

It doesn't make them any money, unlike the B-teams in the League Trophy and Carabao sponsoring the League Cup.

I think they're still a bit hung up over the plastic pitches of the 80s. I've been to a couple of 3G pitches and I used to be against them, but they do seem to be better when worn in a bit and the crumb isn't as thick



Dec's gon' bring kit to ya

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