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EU Withdrawal Negotiations

 

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Isaac
Man City Transfer Target!

Apr 11, 2019, 8:17 AM

Posts: 9628
Location: Kent
Team(s): ABMU

Post #3451 of 3854 (1519 views)
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Re: [TroubleAtMill] EU Withdrawal Negotiations [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately


In Reply To
To me a further referendum is the only possible way out of this mess.

Whether that's no deal v remain or the negotiated deal v remain, I guess is up for grabs.

This is because I can't see parliament sorting it, not because I particularly like referenda, I don't, or want one because I've change my mind, I don't, it's because I can see no other option that will allow us to move forward to Brexit or to revoking article 50.

If it has to be a legally binding referendum to do the above, binding parliament, rather than an advisory one, so be it.


EDIT: I say this very much expecting a Brexit option to win such a refernda, whatever the opinion polls currently say.


It was a one off referendum, we leave or we don't. There was no mention of any second referendum at a later date just in case anybody has changed their minds. What you're basically saying is that you didn't get the outcome that you wanted so you're trying to retrospectively rewrite the rules.


essexian
Youth Team Regular

Apr 11, 2019, 8:42 AM

Posts: 192
Location: Stafford
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Post #3452 of 3854 (1486 views)
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Re: [Isaac] EU Withdrawal Negotiations [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately


In Reply To

In Reply To

It was a one off referendum, we leave or we don't. There was no mention of any second referendum at a later date just in case anybody has changed their minds. What you're basically saying is that you didn't get the outcome that you wanted so you're trying to retrospectively rewrite the rules.


Wrong.

See the Twitter post re printed by Rees Mogg on the post dated 7th April.

https://twitter.com/bydonkeys?lang=en

You may like to read some of the other posts by Led by Donkey's who show what a pup you have been sold.


(This post was edited by leohoenig on Apr 11, 2019, 9:06 AM)


Isaac
Man City Transfer Target!

Apr 11, 2019, 8:49 AM

Posts: 9628
Location: Kent
Team(s): ABMU

Post #3453 of 3854 (1472 views)
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Re: [essexian] EU Withdrawal Negotiations [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately


In Reply To

In Reply To

In Reply To

It was a one off referendum, we leave or we don't. There was no mention of any second referendum at a later date just in case anybody has changed their minds. What you're basically saying is that you didn't get the outcome that you wanted so you're trying to retrospectively rewrite the rules.


Wrong.

See the Twitter post re printed by Rees Mogg on the post dated 7th April.

https://twitter.com/bydonkeys?lang=en

You may like to read some of the other posts by Led by Donkey's who show what a pup you have been sold.


I have neither the time nor the inclination to read through that twitter feed, what point are you trying to make here?


Part-Timer
Chelsea Transfer Target

Apr 11, 2019, 9:48 AM

Posts: 4413
Location: Huntingdonshire
Team(s): Brentford, Bradford City, Peterborough United, Yaxley

Post #3454 of 3854 (1428 views)
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Re: [Isaac] EU Withdrawal Negotiations [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately

Excellent news all round overnight. A delay until October 31.

For politicians: they can kick the can down the road for a little longer and have their three-month summer holiday before returning for another last minute panic in October.

For journalists: they can prepare all their 'nightmare scenario' headlines for a Halloween exit date.

For those of us manning polling stations: a bonus payment for May 23.


TroubleAtMill
Reserve Team Sub

Apr 11, 2019, 9:48 AM

Posts: 391
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Post #3455 of 3854 (1425 views)
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Re: [Isaac] EU Withdrawal Negotiations [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately


In Reply To

In Reply To
To me a further referendum is the only possible way out of this mess.

Whether that's no deal v remain or the negotiated deal v remain, I guess is up for grabs.

This is because I can't see parliament sorting it, not because I particularly like referenda, I don't, or want one because I've change my mind, I don't, it's because I can see no other option that will allow us to move forward to Brexit or to revoking article 50.

If it has to be a legally binding referendum to do the above, binding parliament, rather than an advisory one, so be it.


EDIT: I say this very much expecting a Brexit option to win such a refernda, whatever the opinion polls currently say.


It was a one off referendum, we leave or we don't. There was no mention of any second referendum at a later date just in case anybody has changed their minds. What you're basically saying is that you didn't get the outcome that you wanted so you're trying to retrospectively rewrite the rules.


No I voted leave, therefore in 2016 I got the result I wanted.

I still think orderly brexit was possible but that that chance has been blown.

My opinion about having another referenda is not based on changing my mind due to the fact the option I sought has been blown, It is based on the fact I cannot see parliament in the next 3 years coming to any conclusion on this matter, and therefore the only way out of the mess is a binding referendum.

Do you want 3 more years of this?

I don't, so that is why I now reluctantly support another referendum, a binding referendum to sort things out once and for all.

I repeat, I expect Brexit to win such a referenda.


Isaac
Man City Transfer Target!

Apr 11, 2019, 10:06 AM

Posts: 9628
Location: Kent
Team(s): ABMU

Post #3456 of 3854 (1401 views)
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Re: [TroubleAtMill] EU Withdrawal Negotiations [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately


In Reply To

In Reply To

In Reply To
To me a further referendum is the only possible way out of this mess.

Whether that's no deal v remain or the negotiated deal v remain, I guess is up for grabs.

This is because I can't see parliament sorting it, not because I particularly like referenda, I don't, or want one because I've change my mind, I don't, it's because I can see no other option that will allow us to move forward to Brexit or to revoking article 50.

If it has to be a legally binding referendum to do the above, binding parliament, rather than an advisory one, so be it.


EDIT: I say this very much expecting a Brexit option to win such a refernda, whatever the opinion polls currently say.


It was a one off referendum, we leave or we don't. There was no mention of any second referendum at a later date just in case anybody has changed their minds. What you're basically saying is that you didn't get the outcome that you wanted so you're trying to retrospectively rewrite the rules.


No I voted leave, therefore in 2016 I got the result I wanted.

I still think orderly brexit was possible but that that chance has been blown.

My opinion about having another referenda is not based on changing my mind due to the fact the option I sought has been blown, It is based on the fact I cannot see parliament in the next 3 years coming to any conclusion on this matter, and therefore the only way out of the mess is a binding referendum.

Do you want 3 more years of this?

I don't, so that is why I now reluctantly support another referendum, a binding referendum to sort things out once and for all.

I repeat, I expect Brexit to win such a referenda.


You might well be right about a Brexit win in any second referendum, I just don't see any logic in having one.


colpic
Chelsea Transfer Target


Apr 11, 2019, 12:35 PM

Posts: 3316
Location: North West Lincolnshire
Team(s): Scotter United (Scunthorpe League), AFC Telford(home town club),

Post #3457 of 3854 (1332 views)
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Re: [Isaac] EU Withdrawal Negotiations [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately


In Reply To

In Reply To

In Reply To

In Reply To
To me a further referendum is the only possible way out of this mess.

Whether that's no deal v remain or the negotiated deal v remain, I guess is up for grabs.

This is because I can't see parliament sorting it, not because I particularly like referenda, I don't, or want one because I've change my mind, I don't, it's because I can see no other option that will allow us to move forward to Brexit or to revoking article 50.

If it has to be a legally binding referendum to do the above, binding parliament, rather than an advisory one, so be it.


EDIT: I say this very much expecting a Brexit option to win such a refernda, whatever the opinion polls currently say.


It was a one off referendum, we leave or we don't. There was no mention of any second referendum at a later date just in case anybody has changed their minds. What you're basically saying is that you didn't get the outcome that you wanted so you're trying to retrospectively rewrite the rules.


No I voted leave, therefore in 2016 I got the result I wanted.

I still think orderly brexit was possible but that that chance has been blown.

My opinion about having another referenda is not based on changing my mind due to the fact the option I sought has been blown, It is based on the fact I cannot see parliament in the next 3 years coming to any conclusion on this matter, and therefore the only way out of the mess is a binding referendum.

Do you want 3 more years of this?

I don't, so that is why I now reluctantly support another referendum, a binding referendum to sort things out once and for all.

I repeat, I expect Brexit to win such a referenda.


You might well be right about a Brexit win in any second referendum, I just don't see any logic in having one.


Maybe you would if you bothered to actually look at opposing views but you don't have 'the time or the inclination' to look at anything that doesn't agree with your entrenched position.

I don't expect Brexit to survive another vote, and we will continue to be members of the EU in the longer term because the younger generation are disgusted by what they have witnessed and will be out to vote in force. It would be nice however if we sent some decent quality MEPs over there so that we could play a positive role in shaping the future of the EU instead of continually embarrassing us on the international stages like Farage and his like have been doing for years.



Where's the 'ignore this poster' button?


paulh66
Qatar World Cup bid member!


Apr 11, 2019, 1:00 PM

Posts: 18578
Location: Surrey
Team(s): Tranmere Rovers, South Liverpool (the South will rise again), Cammell Laird

Post #3458 of 3854 (1310 views)
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Re: [Isaac] EU Withdrawal Negotiations [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately

 
You might well be right about a Brexit win in any second referendum, I just don't see any logic in having one.


Although conceptually flawed, a second referendum is on the agenda purely because of the inability of politicians to reach a consensus on what Brexit should actually look like. Compounded by the fact that their efforts to do so keep on hitting against a series of stark options. Verging on an inability to govern. All of which, of course, doesn't really bode well for if/when we do 'get our independence back'.


(This post was edited by paulh66 on Apr 11, 2019, 1:05 PM)


Yatesman
First Team Regular

Apr 11, 2019, 2:15 PM

Posts: 1194
Location: A Wee Toon in the Scottish Borders
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Post #3459 of 3854 (1232 views)
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Re: [paulh66] EU Withdrawal Negotiations [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately


In Reply To
You might well be right about a Brexit win in any second referendum, I just don't see any logic in having one.


Although conceptually flawed, a second referendum is on the agenda purely because of the inability of politicians to reach a consensus on what Brexit should actually look like. Compounded by the fact that their efforts to do so keep on hitting against a series of stark options. Verging on an inability to govern. All of which, of course, doesn't really bode well for if/when we do 'get our independence back'.



Conceptually flawed means no credibility.

I have no idea what a 2nd referendum is supposed to achieve.

If our politicians can't deliver Brexit based on the mandate of the 1st referendum a 2nd one by definition is pointless.....and divisive!

The 'I changed my mind so I want another vote' concept is pathetic.

We can't run the country based on the whims of gutless flip-floppers.

Honour the 2016 referendum result before anything else.


paulh66
Qatar World Cup bid member!


Apr 11, 2019, 2:21 PM

Posts: 18578
Location: Surrey
Team(s): Tranmere Rovers, South Liverpool (the South will rise again), Cammell Laird

Post #3460 of 3854 (1228 views)
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Re: [Yatesman] EU Withdrawal Negotiations [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately

The fact is a second referendum remains a possibility, even if you or anyone else still can't understand why. Whether you agree it should take place is a different question altogether.


TroubleAtMill
Reserve Team Sub

Apr 11, 2019, 5:21 PM

Posts: 391
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Post #3461 of 3854 (1098 views)
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Re: [Yatesman] EU Withdrawal Negotiations [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately


In Reply To

In Reply To
You might well be right about a Brexit win in any second referendum, I just don't see any logic in having one.


Although conceptually flawed, a second referendum is on the agenda purely because of the inability of politicians to reach a consensus on what Brexit should actually look like. Compounded by the fact that their efforts to do so keep on hitting against a series of stark options. Verging on an inability to govern. All of which, of course, doesn't really bode well for if/when we do 'get our independence back'.



Conceptually flawed means no credibility.

I have no idea what a 2nd referendum is supposed to achieve.

If our politicians can't deliver Brexit based on the mandate of the 1st referendum a 2nd one by definition is pointless.....and divisive!

The 'I changed my mind so I want another vote' concept is pathetic.

We can't run the country based on the whims of gutless flip-floppers.

Honour the 2016 referendum result before anything else.


I have said before, a second referendum may be the only way out of the mess parliament has got us into. A legally binding referendum may be the only way forward. Is it the best way forward, probably. Should we even have had to consider it, no, parliament shouldn't have let us down in the way it has, but they have so it may be, I think it is becoming, the only way forward out of this mess. Make it legally binding then parliament can't go against whatever result it produces. Personally I don't think you need to worry as I think it will back brexit again.

If the whims of people changing their minds are never allowed, we would never have a change in governments, changing governments what an awful way to run a country!

You sound as if you'd prefer to live in a dictatorship, which makes me wonder ; who do you want as our dictator?

Theresa May?
Boris Johnson?
Nigel Farage?
Jeremy Corbyn?
Nicola Sturgeon?
The Queen?


(This post was edited by TroubleAtMill on Apr 11, 2019, 5:30 PM)


leohoenig
Administrator

Apr 11, 2019, 6:03 PM

Posts: 13200
Location: Outer Cheltenhamshire
Team(s): Cheltenham Town

Post #3462 of 3854 (1079 views)
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Re: [TroubleAtMill] EU Withdrawal Negotiations [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately

I can only think of one candidate who would run the country the way I want it run
(and some on here say he does not even do a good job as site moderator)



Fat AND Pompous.
The proof that you can have too much of a good thing
Now blogging at http://www.leohoenig.com



Isaac
Man City Transfer Target!

Apr 11, 2019, 6:32 PM

Posts: 9628
Location: Kent
Team(s): ABMU

Post #3463 of 3854 (1045 views)
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Re: [colpic] EU Withdrawal Negotiations [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately


In Reply To

In Reply To

In Reply To

In Reply To

In Reply To
To me a further referendum is the only possible way out of this mess.

Whether that's no deal v remain or the negotiated deal v remain, I guess is up for grabs.

This is because I can't see parliament sorting it, not because I particularly like referenda, I don't, or want one because I've change my mind, I don't, it's because I can see no other option that will allow us to move forward to Brexit or to revoking article 50.

If it has to be a legally binding referendum to do the above, binding parliament, rather than an advisory one, so be it.


EDIT: I say this very much expecting a Brexit option to win such a refernda, whatever the opinion polls currently say.


It was a one off referendum, we leave or we don't. There was no mention of any second referendum at a later date just in case anybody has changed their minds. What you're basically saying is that you didn't get the outcome that you wanted so you're trying to retrospectively rewrite the rules.


No I voted leave, therefore in 2016 I got the result I wanted.

I still think orderly brexit was possible but that that chance has been blown.

My opinion about having another referenda is not based on changing my mind due to the fact the option I sought has been blown, It is based on the fact I cannot see parliament in the next 3 years coming to any conclusion on this matter, and therefore the only way out of the mess is a binding referendum.

Do you want 3 more years of this?

I don't, so that is why I now reluctantly support another referendum, a binding referendum to sort things out once and for all.

I repeat, I expect Brexit to win such a referenda.


You might well be right about a Brexit win in any second referendum, I just don't see any logic in having one.


Maybe you would if you bothered to actually look at opposing views but you don't have 'the time or the inclination' to look at anything that doesn't agree with your entrenched position.

I don't expect Brexit to survive another vote, and we will continue to be members of the EU in the longer term because the younger generation are disgusted by what they have witnessed and will be out to vote in force. It would be nice however if we sent some decent quality MEPs over there so that we could play a positive role in shaping the future of the EU instead of continually embarrassing us on the international stages like Farage and his like have been doing for years.


Your hypocrisy is breathtaking, entrenched position? Not looking at opposing views? That's a pretty good description of yourself!

I've no problem with remainers, they're entitled to their opinion but remoaners are a different matter. These are the ones who just cannot accept the result of a democratic referendum because it didn't produce the outcome that they wanted.


Ropemaker
Man City Transfer Target!

Apr 11, 2019, 10:00 PM

Posts: 7335
Location: Surrey
Team(s): Hailsham Town

Post #3464 of 3854 (950 views)
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Re: [Isaac] EU Withdrawal Negotiations [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately

More referendum issues. The supreme court in Switzerland has overturned a referendum result saying voters were poorly informed

https://www.theguardian.com/...were-poorly-informed



Just because you're paranoid, it doesn't mean they're not out to get you.


Yatesman
First Team Regular

Apr 11, 2019, 10:16 PM

Posts: 1194
Location: A Wee Toon in the Scottish Borders
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Post #3465 of 3854 (931 views)
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Re: [Ropemaker] EU Withdrawal Negotiations [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately


In Reply To
More referendum issues. The supreme court in Switzerland has overturned a referendum result saying voters were poorly informed

https://www.theguardian.com/...were-poorly-informed


Different issue and it was about a definitive issue and the laws are different 're referenda.
Not overly comparable then......as you know!

The Govt issued a 9million leaflet outlining the advantages of staying.
All the major parties and the whole of Academia and the CBI and most of the media , the Establishment and there was an Official Leave and an Official Remain campaign.
It would be hard to make the case we didn't have plenty of information prior to the vote.


Yatesman
First Team Regular

Apr 11, 2019, 10:21 PM

Posts: 1194
Location: A Wee Toon in the Scottish Borders
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Post #3466 of 3854 (919 views)
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Re: [TroubleAtMill] EU Withdrawal Negotiations [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately


In Reply To

In Reply To

In Reply To
You might well be right about a Brexit win in any second referendum, I just don't see any logic in having one.


Although conceptually flawed, a second referendum is on the agenda purely because of the inability of politicians to reach a consensus on what Brexit should actually look like. Compounded by the fact that their efforts to do so keep on hitting against a series of stark options. Verging on an inability to govern. All of which, of course, doesn't really bode well for if/when we do 'get our independence back'.



Conceptually flawed means no credibility.

I have no idea what a 2nd referendum is supposed to achieve.

If our politicians can't deliver Brexit based on the mandate of the 1st referendum a 2nd one by definition is pointless.....and divisive!

The 'I changed my mind so I want another vote' concept is pathetic.

We can't run the country based on the whims of gutless flip-floppers.

Honour the 2016 referendum result before anything else.


I have said before, a second referendum may be the only way out of the mess parliament has got us into. A legally binding referendum may be the only way forward. Is it the best way forward, probably. Should we even have had to consider it, no, parliament shouldn't have let us down in the way it has, but they have so it may be, I think it is becoming, the only way forward out of this mess. Make it legally binding then parliament can't go against whatever result it produces. Personally I don't think you need to worry as I think it will back brexit again.

If the whims of people changing their minds are never allowed, we would never have a change in governments, changing governments what an awful way to run a country!

You sound as if you'd prefer to live in a dictatorship, which makes me wonder ; who do you want as our dictator?

Theresa May?
Boris Johnson?
Nigel Farage?
Jeremy Corbyn?
Nicola Sturgeon?
The Queen?


That's a bit of a puerile question.
If your take on my posts is that I want a dictator its hardly surprising that you are struggling with the complexities of Brexit and are flip-flopping between Leave and Remain.


paulh66
Qatar World Cup bid member!


Apr 11, 2019, 10:22 PM

Posts: 18578
Location: Surrey
Team(s): Tranmere Rovers, South Liverpool (the South will rise again), Cammell Laird

Post #3467 of 3854 (914 views)
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Re: [Yatesman] EU Withdrawal Negotiations [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately

Apart from the fact that Parliament itself still can't seem to agree what leave (per the ballot paper) really meant. If they don't know, what chance the rest of us?


colpic
Chelsea Transfer Target


Apr 12, 2019, 1:17 AM

Posts: 3316
Location: North West Lincolnshire
Team(s): Scotter United (Scunthorpe League), AFC Telford(home town club),

Post #3468 of 3854 (845 views)
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Re: [Isaac] EU Withdrawal Negotiations [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately

 

You might well be right about a Brexit win in any second referendum, I just don't see any logic in having one.


Maybe you would if you bothered to actually look at opposing views but you don't have 'the time or the inclination' to look at anything that doesn't agree with your entrenched position.

I don't expect Brexit to survive another vote, and we will continue to be members of the EU in the longer term because the younger generation are disgusted by what they have witnessed and will be out to vote in force. It would be nice however if we sent some decent quality MEPs over there so that we could play a positive role in shaping the future of the EU instead of continually embarrassing us on the international stages like Farage and his like have been doing for years.


Your hypocrisy is breathtaking, entrenched position? Not looking at opposing views? That's a pretty good description of yourself!

I've no problem with remainers, they're entitled to their opinion but remoaners are a different matter. These are the ones who just cannot accept the result of a democratic referendum because it didn't produce the outcome that they wanted.


I'm really in to online personal insults, tempting though it is, so I'll just say that I hope that you've still got some breath left because you'll need it as you will have to get down to the polling station to vote in the EU ELECTIONS and the (possible) Second Referendum.

Anyway, that aside, I'd be interested in your views on my comments about the quality of representation that the UK has had/will have in Brussels. Are you happy with the way our MEPs have performed or are they part of the reason why people feel that we don't get a fair deal?



Where's the 'ignore this poster' button?


TroubleAtMill
Reserve Team Sub

Apr 12, 2019, 7:26 AM

Posts: 391
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Post #3469 of 3854 (808 views)
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Re: [Yatesman] EU Withdrawal Negotiations [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately


In Reply To

In Reply To

In Reply To

In Reply To
You might well be right about a Brexit win in any second referendum, I just don't see any logic in having one.


Although conceptually flawed, a second referendum is on the agenda purely because of the inability of politicians to reach a consensus on what Brexit should actually look like. Compounded by the fact that their efforts to do so keep on hitting against a series of stark options. Verging on an inability to govern. All of which, of course, doesn't really bode well for if/when we do 'get our independence back'.



Conceptually flawed means no credibility.

I have no idea what a 2nd referendum is supposed to achieve.

If our politicians can't deliver Brexit based on the mandate of the 1st referendum a 2nd one by definition is pointless.....and divisive!

The 'I changed my mind so I want another vote' concept is pathetic.

We can't run the country based on the whims of gutless flip-floppers.

Honour the 2016 referendum result before anything else.


I have said before, a second referendum may be the only way out of the mess parliament has got us into. A legally binding referendum may be the only way forward. Is it the best way forward, probably. Should we even have had to consider it, no, parliament shouldn't have let us down in the way it has, but they have so it may be, I think it is becoming, the only way forward out of this mess. Make it legally binding then parliament can't go against whatever result it produces. Personally I don't think you need to worry as I think it will back brexit again.

If the whims of people changing their minds are never allowed, we would never have a change in governments, changing governments what an awful way to run a country!

You sound as if you'd prefer to live in a dictatorship, which makes me wonder ; who do you want as our dictator?

Theresa May?
Boris Johnson?
Nigel Farage?
Jeremy Corbyn?
Nicola Sturgeon?
The Queen?


That's a bit of a puerile question.
If your take on my posts is that I want a dictator its hardly surprising that you are struggling with the complexities of Brexit and are flip-flopping between Leave and Remain.


Maybe you don't want a dictator, fine.

But

1: You do not seem to allow people to change their mind either!

2: You do seem to insult people's intelligence because they don't agree with you.

And

3: You don't actually seem to read what is written, I have repeatedly said is see another referendum as the only way forward. I would prefer not to have any refernda!

My change of opinion is irrelevant in this.

This is my final post on the matter, I'm not going to get drawn into insults, against forum policy.


Richard Rundle
Man City Transfer Target!

Apr 12, 2019, 8:14 AM

Posts: 8297
Location:
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Post #3470 of 3854 (785 views)
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Re: [Yatesman] EU Withdrawal Negotiations [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately


In Reply To
Different issue and it was about a definitive issue and the laws are different 're referenda.
Not overly comparable then......as you know!

The Govt issued a 9million leaflet outlining the advantages of staying.
All the major parties and the whole of Academia and the CBI and most of the media , the Establishment and there was an Official Leave and an Official Remain campaign.
It would be hard to make the case we didn't have plenty of information prior to the vote.



Yes we had plenty of information. How much of it would have passed the Advertising Standards Authority mantra of "Decent, Honest & Truthful" though? On both sides.


Part-Timer
Chelsea Transfer Target

Apr 12, 2019, 9:23 AM

Posts: 4413
Location: Huntingdonshire
Team(s): Brentford, Bradford City, Peterborough United, Yaxley

Post #3471 of 3854 (758 views)
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Re: [TroubleAtMill] EU Withdrawal Negotiations [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately


In Reply To
I have said before, a second referendum may be the only way out of the mess parliament has got us into. A legally binding referendum may be the only way forward. Is it the best way forward, probably. Should we even have had to consider it, no, parliament shouldn't have let us down in the way it has, but they have so it may be, I think it is becoming, the only way forward out of this mess. Make it legally binding then parliament can't go against whatever result it produces. Personally I don't think you need to worry as I think it will back brexit again.

In order for a legally binding referendum to work (or to have worked if it had been done the first time round) it would be necessary to define exactly what is meant by Brexit. Since the politicians can't agree on even that, the necessary legislation wouldn't get through parliament. This is why what seemed such a simple referendum question was actually hopelessly vague and has marched us into the current mess. The only way a second referendum will enable any progress to be made is if it is to confirm whether we are happy with any deal that is proposed.


Yatesman
First Team Regular

Apr 12, 2019, 12:38 PM

Posts: 1194
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Post #3472 of 3854 (675 views)
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Re: [Part-Timer] EU Withdrawal Negotiations [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately


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I have said before, a second referendum may be the only way out of the mess parliament has got us into. A legally binding referendum may be the only way forward. Is it the best way forward, probably. Should we even have had to consider it, no, parliament shouldn't have let us down in the way it has, but they have so it may be, I think it is becoming, the only way forward out of this mess. Make it legally binding then parliament can't go against whatever result it produces. Personally I don't think you need to worry as I think it will back brexit again.

In order for a legally binding referendum to work (or to have worked if it had been done the first time round) it would be necessary to define exactly what is meant by Brexit. Since the politicians can't agree on even that, the necessary legislation wouldn't get through parliament. This is why what seemed such a simple referendum question was actually hopelessly vague and has marched us into the current mess. The only way a second referendum will enable any progress to be made is if it is to confirm whether we are happy with any deal that is proposed.

Ok....but......

The referendum in 2016 was NOT charged with defining the future relationship with Europe.
That wasn't it's remit.
The purpose of the 2016 was to define the direction of travel, which was Leave, the details of which, we were all fully aware, was TO BE NEGOTIATED.

Both sides bought in to that.

It was only when the unthinkable happened the Remainers started creating issues.
Nobody would have questioned the validity of the vote had Remain won.


(This post was edited by Yatesman on Apr 12, 2019, 12:39 PM)


Tykeoldboy
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Apr 12, 2019, 2:04 PM

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Post #3473 of 3854 (614 views)
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Re: [Yatesman] EU Withdrawal Negotiations [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately

Today is groundhog day, the day the UK leaves the EU, or was that suppose to be March 29 or October 31 or whatever new date will be pulled out of the bag.


Part-Timer
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Apr 12, 2019, 2:32 PM

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Post #3474 of 3854 (594 views)
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Re: [Yatesman] EU Withdrawal Negotiations [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately


In Reply To

In Reply To

In Reply To
I have said before, a second referendum may be the only way out of the mess parliament has got us into. A legally binding referendum may be the only way forward. Is it the best way forward, probably. Should we even have had to consider it, no, parliament shouldn't have let us down in the way it has, but they have so it may be, I think it is becoming, the only way forward out of this mess. Make it legally binding then parliament can't go against whatever result it produces. Personally I don't think you need to worry as I think it will back brexit again.

In order for a legally binding referendum to work (or to have worked if it had been done the first time round) it would be necessary to define exactly what is meant by Brexit. Since the politicians can't agree on even that, the necessary legislation wouldn't get through parliament. This is why what seemed such a simple referendum question was actually hopelessly vague and has marched us into the current mess. The only way a second referendum will enable any progress to be made is if it is to confirm whether we are happy with any deal that is proposed.

Ok....but......

The referendum in 2016 was NOT charged with defining the future relationship with Europe.
That wasn't it's remit.
The purpose of the 2016 was to define the direction of travel, which was Leave, the details of which, we were all fully aware, was TO BE NEGOTIATED.

Both sides bought in to that.

It was only when the unthinkable happened the Remainers started creating issues.
Nobody would have questioned the validity of the vote had Remain won.

So if the direction of travel was determined as Leave and everyone knew that the detail was to be negotiated why was there all the complaining from leavers that the deal negotiated wasn't Brexity enough? As I said, the problem was with the initial, ill-defined, referendum which, after all, was only called as a desperate attempt by David Cameron to hold his fracturing party together. A disgraceful case of putting party before country.


prorege
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Apr 12, 2019, 2:51 PM

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Post #3475 of 3854 (565 views)
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Re: [Yatesman] EU Withdrawal Negotiations [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately


In Reply To

In Reply To

In Reply To
I have said before, a second referendum may be the only way out of the mess parliament has got us into. A legally binding referendum may be the only way forward. Is it the best way forward, probably. Should we even have had to consider it, no, parliament shouldn't have let us down in the way it has, but they have so it may be, I think it is becoming, the only way forward out of this mess. Make it legally binding then parliament can't go against whatever result it produces. Personally I don't think you need to worry as I think it will back brexit again.

In order for a legally binding referendum to work (or to have worked if it had been done the first time round) it would be necessary to define exactly what is meant by Brexit. Since the politicians can't agree on even that, the necessary legislation wouldn't get through parliament. This is why what seemed such a simple referendum question was actually hopelessly vague and has marched us into the current mess. The only way a second referendum will enable any progress to be made is if it is to confirm whether we are happy with any deal that is proposed.

Ok....but......

The referendum in 2016 was NOT charged with defining the future relationship with Europe.
That wasn't it's remit.
The purpose of the 2016 was to define the direction of travel, which was Leave, the details of which, we were all fully aware, was TO BE NEGOTIATED.

Both sides bought in to that. - The ERG and the DUP obviously didn't. They've continuously voted down the agreement that was negotiated.

It was only when the unthinkable happened the Remainers started creating issues.
Nobody would have questioned the validity of the vote had Remain won. - it's been mentioned numerous times on here how Farage said that a narrow defeat would not be the end of the matter. Here's the link:
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-eu-referendum-36306681



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