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Home: Non-League Football Discussion: General Discussion:
Haringey Borough v Yeovil Town

 

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mick
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Oct 21, 2019, 11:54 PM

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Post #76 of 125 (6086 views)
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Re: [Cris] Haringey Borough v Yeovil Town [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately


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. there’s no “good reason” to generalise about a group of people based on the actions of some of them.


You seem happy enough to generalise about groups. To quote "black people were not made welcome in pubs by white people" - no caveats on either side.


Cris
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Oct 21, 2019, 11:55 PM

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Post #77 of 125 (6081 views)
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Re: [mick] Haringey Borough v Yeovil Town [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately


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You were not the victim of racism.


As you know that youngster was not subject to racial abuse in Ipswich in the 1970s, even though you were not there, no doubt you are also equally certain that my friends and I were not subject to such abuse when also attempting to enter a pub (in Birmingham) in the same decade ... .
... but, there again, referring to a group of people as "honkys" is apparently not racist according to you as "racism works one way". Presumably you believe the people at that pub threateniing us "honkys" with serious violence if we did not leave immediately would have made the same threats against non-whiite persons trying to enter i.e they were not racist, just violent.


Here’s the reality for you, black people were not made welcome in pubs by white people, they were victims of abuse, discrimination and violence. As a response they set up their own pubs, given the attitude of many white people to black people at the time it’s hardly surprising they wouldn’t be particularly welcoming. Only someone with an overinflated sense of entitlement and arrogance would expect to be welcomed in such circumstances.


So it is perfectly acceptable for black people to be "not particularly welcoming" (a.k.a. abusive and violent) towards white people and any white person who attempts to enter a pub close to where they live is arrogant.

By your argument, white people who have been abused and threatened with violence in such a manner would be fully justified in behaving the same towards black people ....... in "reaiity", a number of black people were regular patrons of other pubs we frequented in the city and none of us ever felt the need to be unwelcoming to them even after the incident I described.


There is a difference between a minority group wanting a safe place for their community to feel safe in the face of rampant racism and majority community excluding minorities. You are trying to create an equivalence where none exists. The only racism you were a victim of was the racism that made black only pubs necessary in the first place.


Cris
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Oct 22, 2019, 12:02 AM

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Post #78 of 125 (6059 views)
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Re: [mick] Haringey Borough v Yeovil Town [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately


In Reply To

In Reply To
. there’s no “good reason” to generalise about a group of people based on the actions of some of them.


You seem happy enough to generalise about groups. To quote "black people were not made welcome in pubs by white people" - no caveats on either side.


I’m going to stand by my view that more than one white person was unwelcoming to more than one black person, unless you have evidence to the contrary.


Doobs
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Oct 22, 2019, 8:01 AM

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Post #79 of 125 (5758 views)
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Re: [Isaac] Haringey Borough v Yeovil Town [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately


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Maybe Haringey should have had sufficient (and suitably burly) stewards & police to be able to eject the preparators but even if they had and the thugs had been removes &/or arrested the damage had already been done.
I saw the faces of the players who had been abused and they were clearly seriously affected, as were several innocent spectators closer to the incident than I was. Whether the players were in a fit mental state to continue, even if the match had gone ahead without further problems is questionable. For what it is worth, in my opinion, to force or even expect them to do so would have been unfair.
I heard no criticism of the stewarding, Haringey Borough, Yeovil, (or their fans in general) or the decision to abandon the game. The only people I heard anyone blaming for the events were the handful of people acting in an abusive, racist fashion, who were universally condemned by all those who I spoke to regardless of their allegiances (i.e. those who were actually there).
Personally I think a replay is probably the right decision and I can see no justification in imposing sanctions against either club. Holding either club responsible for the actions of a few idiots which could not have reasonably been forseen seems both unfair and vindictive.
The home club is well known for being friendly and inclusive. They may have been naïve not to anticipate this sort of behaviour but the friendly atmosphere & the lack of abuse to opponents which is all too common at many if not most other grounds is totally absent at White Hart Lane. Remember they had similar high profile games last season (v Orient & Wimbledon) without problems, why should they expect anything different this time?


I think you've answered your own question as to why HB didn't have enough stewards or police and if perpetrators were ejected then what? Are they just going to toddle off home or are they going to cause more problems outside the ground? And if the police arrest them it takes officers away from the game and something more serious might occur in their absence.

I don't accept that HB players were too traumatised to continue and I don't see why the game couldn't have been played to a finish once some sort of order was restored. For the HB manager to ask the referee if he could gaurntee the safety of his players was ridiculous, how can any referee at any game possibly gaurntee that?

I suppose replaying the game was the only option, I just feel sorry for the fans. In the interests of fair play I think the game should start with a walk in goal for Yeovil.[/reply]

I don't think it's up to HBFC to decide whether a crime is serious enough to warrant calling the police. Especially as they deemed it serious enough to abandon the game. A point was raised yesterday that there aren't enough police available, yet Mrs Doobs was watching some tripe on TV last night where the Met Police were involved in a far dodging sting. I reckon they could've spared a couple of officers if HBFC (and Yeovil, of course) were willing to pay.

But, as you correctly note, they've successfully got that goal ruled out.


Dingo
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Oct 22, 2019, 8:48 AM

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Re: [Doobs] Haringey Borough v Yeovil Town [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately

HB have successfully requested to have tonight's league game at Bowers & Pitsea postponed ''due to the events of the last few days''.


(This post was edited by Dingo on Oct 22, 2019, 8:49 AM)


El_Hugh
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Oct 22, 2019, 8:56 AM

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Post #81 of 125 (5565 views)
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Re: [Doobs] Haringey Borough v Yeovil Town [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately

The accusation that could be inferred from your last sentence is quite something; as is most of the rest of this thread. Considering the united front that HBFC & YTFC have presented the unwillingness to take reports of the incident at face value and the descent into pedantry and whataboutery are distinctly depressing. Thankfully, incidents of this type do seem to be rare but that rarity doesn't excuse dismissing them or dressing them up as 'playing the race card'. It is one thing not to be a card carryingm, knuckle dragging racist and I don't think there are any of those on this forum (if there are they hide it well) but most people need to progress beyond that that bare minimum & start to engage with the concepts of structural racism and institutional racism.


SuperKev!
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Oct 22, 2019, 10:30 AM

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Post #82 of 125 (5335 views)
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Re: [Isaac] Haringey Borough v Yeovil Town [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately


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In the interests of fair play I think the game should start with a walk in goal for Yeovil.

In what way would that be fair play in this circumstance? The first bottle was thrown and the spitting occurred after the penalty was awarded but before the kick was taken so it was still 0-0 at the time. Then, as the penalty was being taken, further objects were thrown at Haringey’s goalkeeper to try and put him off as he tried to save the penalty. A number of Haringey players approached the referee suggesting that the penalty should be retaken because of the outside interference. Whilst this was happening, the Haringey Manager came on and ordered his team off so the referee didn’t get to make a clear decision as to whether the goal stood or if he was going to order a retake and the match never restarted with a Haringey kick off. Therefore, nobody can really say for sure whether the scoreline was 0-1 or 0-0 at the time of abandonment and it would be inappropriate for Haringey to start the rematch (it isn’t a replay, regardless of the fact that the FA used that description) by gifting Yeovil a goal.


chienmort
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Oct 22, 2019, 10:34 AM

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Post #83 of 125 (5325 views)
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Re: [Isaac] Haringey Borough v Yeovil Town [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately


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"Certainly at non-league level, I believe few clubs would invent a raciest incident to get a game abandoned. Even if it did happen it is, perhaps, a price worth paying. There are things more important than a game of football, maybe this is one of them. "

I'd say that inventing racism where there isn't any is as bad as racist abuse itself. It completely undermines attempts to stop it happening.

I do think allowing teams to decide the game is being abandoned is setting a dangerous precedent. I can't see why the game was restarted when the crowd had been cleared.

If the group of offenders was as small as is being reported I'm at a loss why they couldn't be ejected. Do people now have to agree to be ejected?


If, and I say if, a club have invented racist incidents for their own benefit it is disgusting beyond belief and they should be heavily punished.

Like you I cannot understand why the game didn't resume once trouble makers had been removed from the ground, call the police if necessary.

Presumably there was only a small number of stewards on duty and they were fearful of making things worse if they tried to forcibly remove anybody.

Having watched Poole Town play Haringey Borough at the same stage last season, I can say that that there were not enough stewards at that match but of course I cannot comment on Saturday's game except to say that the match I attended (Hayes and Yeading v Poole ) had a lot of mouthy supporters of London EFL teams present. Although I have to say I heard no racist comments.

There was an incident at the end of the Hayes and Yeading V Poole Town match where the players all milled around and the H & Y goalkeeping coach was jumping up and down in a frenzy. It appeared to stem from an incident where our player (white)was on the ground and his body was in the way of the ball, he was kicked repeatedly by a H&Y player (black). After the final whistle there were words and one of our players (black) supported his teammate. He was the supposedly abused by one of the H&Y players for sticking up for a white player.

As this was told to me by a third party I cannot confirm that is happened this way. However I did see our (black) player pushed and his bag knocked out of his grip in the bar after the match by a (black) H&Y player. At that point our captain took the players away to the Coach without eating the after match food to avoid further trouble.

I suppose I have a few point here. Racism is not acceptable in any form, and many clubs have insufficient stewarding for bigger games.



Poole Town FC - les couilles du chien

(This post was edited by chienmort on Oct 22, 2019, 10:36 AM)


Isaac
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Oct 22, 2019, 3:03 PM

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Post #84 of 125 (4700 views)
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Re: [SuperKev!] Haringey Borough v Yeovil Town [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately


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In Reply To
In the interests of fair play I think the game should start with a walk in goal for Yeovil.

In what way would that be fair play in this circumstance? The first bottle was thrown and the spitting occurred after the penalty was awarded but before the kick was taken so it was still 0-0 at the time. Then, as the penalty was being taken, further objects were thrown at Haringey’s goalkeeper to try and put him off as he tried to save the penalty. A number of Haringey players approached the referee suggesting that the penalty should be retaken because of the outside interference. Whilst this was happening, the Haringey Manager came on and ordered his team off so the referee didn’t get to make a clear decision as to whether the goal stood or if he was going to order a retake and the match never restarted with a Haringey kick off. Therefore, nobody can really say for sure whether the scoreline was 0-1 or 0-0 at the time of abandonment and it would be inappropriate for Haringey to start the rematch (it isn’t a replay, regardless of the fact that the FA used that description) by gifting Yeovil a goal.


I was under the impression that the penalty had been converted and I didn't know about any possible retake. I guess only the referee knows?


foreststag
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Oct 22, 2019, 3:57 PM

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Re: [Isaac] Haringey Borough v Yeovil Town [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately

I have been offsite for a week but just want to make a this observation. The FA have put themselves in an awkward position by having a rule saying that if a manager takes his team off the field of play, thus causing the game to be abandoned, he is to be suspended (can't remember for how long) while at the same time encouraging players to leave the field of play if racially abused. Thankfully in this instance I believe the FA have acted, for once, sensibly in just ordering the game to be replayed.


mwy na chlwb
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Oct 22, 2019, 5:41 PM

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Post #86 of 125 (4228 views)
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Re: [foreststag] Haringey Borough v Yeovil Town [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately


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I have been offsite for a week but just want to make a this observation. The FA have put themselves in an awkward position by having a rule saying that if a manager takes his team off the field of play, thus causing the game to be abandoned, he is to be suspended (can't remember for how long) while at the same time encouraging players to leave the field of play if racially abused. Thankfully in this instance I believe the FA have acted, for once, sensibly in just ordering the game to be replayed.


The FA Cup Committee had their hands tied. They couldn't expel either club without a proper investigation but had, for the interests of the competition, to make a decision about a replay. Presumably there'll be a disciplinary case in due course?

The decision feels a bit dismal for Boro - even if only one or two fans shouted explicitly racist stuff, the level of hate and hostility and hate aimed at the keeper and other Boro players from Yeovil Yoof was a different level to pretty much anything I've seen in football before.

Can't imagine having to play in front of that, especially since some of them have been convincing one another that Coby Rowe made the allegations up.


paulh66
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Oct 22, 2019, 6:29 PM

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Post #87 of 125 (4067 views)
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Re: [mwy na chlwb] Haringey Borough v Yeovil Town [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately

 
The FA Cup Committee had their hands tied. They couldn't expel either club without a proper investigation but had, for the interests of the competition, to make a decision about a replay. Presumably there'll be a disciplinary case in due course?


I'd assume (or a least hope) that, in reaching this decision before the investigation is finished, the FA are sufficiently satisfied that any culpability that might be found on behalf of the clubs couldn't tip into an outcome that'd warrant an expulsion under their rules.

Presumably the outcome of the investigation will determine whether a disciplinary case is brought against either club.


MiddxSaint
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Oct 24, 2019, 9:08 AM

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Re: [paulh66] Haringey Borough v Yeovil Town [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately

When St Albans City played at Huish in the Isthmian League in December 1987, Yeovil supporters in the 6,079 crowd shouted "Hippo" when our physio ran onto the pitch. He did lose a bit of weight after that experience.


Isaac
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Oct 24, 2019, 9:12 AM

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Re: [MiddxSaint] Haringey Borough v Yeovil Town [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately


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When St Albans City played at Huish in the Isthmian League in December 1987, Yeovil supporters in the 6,079 crowd shouted "Hippo" when our physio ran onto the pitch. He did lose a bit of weight after that experience.


That would probably be deemed a hate crime nowadays.


Doobs
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Oct 24, 2019, 11:01 AM

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Re: [Isaac] Haringey Borough v Yeovil Town [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately

Hippos have feelings too


GRIFFON
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Re: [Doobs] Haringey Borough v Yeovil Town [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately

Not getting involved in the Yeovil arguement but just to balance it all up a little bit. A few years ago we had a mixed race player, mother black and father white and when we played a team who were all black the abuse he suffered from them all through the game was awful. We played the same team in a cup final at the County ground and during the warm up several of the players had a right go at our committee who were just walking round, thankfully they did not respond.

Incidents like that have been very few and on the whole I believe our local non-league sides are to be congratulated on the way they have integrated all colours and creeds over the years.


Isaac
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Oct 24, 2019, 12:02 PM

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Re: [GRIFFON] Haringey Borough v Yeovil Town [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately


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Not getting involved in the Yeovil arguement but just to balance it all up a little bit. A few years ago we had a mixed race player, mother black and father white and when we played a team who were all black the abuse he suffered from them all through the game was awful. We played the same team in a cup final at the County ground and during the warm up several of the players had a right go at our committee who were just walking round, thankfully they did not respond.

Incidents like that have been very few and on the whole I believe our local non-league sides are to be congratulated on the way they have integrated all colours and creeds over the years.


Not football related but I know somebody of mixed race who suffered abuse from some black people so much so that he went to the police about it. Racism isn't a one way thing by any means.


frychip67
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Oct 24, 2019, 12:31 PM

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Re: [Bigaitch] Haringey Borough v Yeovil Town [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately


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Spot on, I was at the Stadium of Light that night ticking it for the 93.


93? Are you counting Berwick?



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frychip67
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Oct 24, 2019, 12:33 PM

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Re: [Chris1963] Haringey Borough v Yeovil Town [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately


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Match to be replayed on Tuesday 29 October. No details yet as to who will be allowed to attend, sanctions against either club, etc.

Replayed from scratch I take it?


Why wouldn't it be? No abandoned match in the UK has ever been re-started from the minute it was abandoned. That sort of thing only happens in a few countries.


Sheffield Wednesday v Aston Villa, November 1898, abandoned after 79.5 minutes. The remaining 10.5 minutes were played on 13 March 1899.



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DaveU
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Oct 24, 2019, 12:58 PM

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Re: [footiemug] Haringey Borough v Yeovil Town [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately


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Having been to games totalling in the thousands, I seem to be oblivious to this epidemic of racist abuse.
I have only once witnessed an encounter of a fan screaming racist abuse at a black player,and that was at a Dundee v Forfar fixture in the early 90..
I have of course witnessed loads of non racist abuse ,mainly at refs and linesmen.And a lot of that from the bench.

Same here. More likely to hear homophobic abuse than racist, especially if you count the word pansy as applied to players who go down rather too readily by supporters of a more mature vintage.



There are 10 types of people in this world. Those who understand binary and those who don't.


bomaya
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Oct 24, 2019, 2:57 PM

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Re: [mick] Haringey Borough v Yeovil Town [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately

Hilarious but also pretty sad that some posters think one incident that happened to them 40 years ago is proof that racism towards white people is exactly the same as that which people of colour can experience every single day.


Bigaitch
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Oct 24, 2019, 5:02 PM

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Re: [frychip67] Haringey Borough v Yeovil Town [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately


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In Reply To
Spot on, I was at the Stadium of Light that night ticking it for the 93.


93? Are you counting Berwick?


No, it was another case of CFS - Chunky Finger Syndrone...good job I am not an accountant...


Isaac
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Oct 24, 2019, 5:22 PM

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Hilarious but also pretty sad that some posters think one incident that happened to them 40 years ago is proof that racism towards white people is exactly the same as that which people of colour can experience every single day.


It's you that's hilarious, I can't remember the last time I witnessed any racism at a football match or anywhere else and I haven't heard any friends or work colleagues complain about it recently.

I run the risk of being struck by lightning every single day.


paulh66
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Re: [Isaac] Haringey Borough v Yeovil Town [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately

I've seen and heard a couple of things in recent seasons. Nothing that'd ever hit the back pages but still noticeable and, in at least one case, led to an investigation by one of the competing clubs.


Steveb
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Oct 24, 2019, 8:28 PM

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Re: [Isaac] Haringey Borough v Yeovil Town [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately


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Hilarious but also pretty sad that some posters think one incident that happened to them 40 years ago is proof that racism towards white people is exactly the same as that which people of colour can experience every single day.


It's you that's hilarious, I can't remember the last time I witnessed any racism at a football match or anywhere else and I haven't heard any friends or work colleagues complain about it recently.

I run the risk of being struck by lightning every single day.


I don’t know you so can only make an assumption that you’re white (apologies if it’s a wrong assumption).

If you were BAME I think you’re likely to have experienced racism more recently. It might have been not being offered a job you were qualified for, or being stopped by the police for no reason, or simply not having the opportunities in life that many of us take for granted.

Not sure what the likelihood of you being struck by lightning has to do with anything.




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