Home: Non Football Related: General Chat:
EU Withdrawal Negotiations



Ronsdog
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EU Withdrawal Negotiations or Reply Privately

 
Is it any wonder that the current negotiations regarding the UKs withdrawal have reached a position of deadlock?

The EU need our money and we require their markets to trade freely in; but whilst the EU continue to refuse to discuss future trading arrangements why should this country
bow to their demand to settle the bill, so to speak.

The UK, as the second biggest contributor to the clubs coffers would be foolish to discuss the financial settlement while the future trading arrangements remain unclear.
The latest available figures show that after Germany we are the second biggest net contributor....

European Commission figures for 2015
Germany 17.1bn euros
UK 14.0bn euros
France 6.1bn euros
Netherlands. 5.6bn euros

Germany, France and the Netherlands will have to dig deep into their pockets to cover the shortfall when we finally exit if there is no movement, which looks increasingly likely.

I was always pessimistic about a settlement being arrived at because of the financial stumbling block. So its likely we will revert back to our pre 1975 arrangements with the EU Bloc. In short WTO trading arrangements.

Is it realistic that the UK would or should offer concessions to move the EU from their current implacable position?


007Dale
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Oct 12, 2017, 1:38 PM

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Re: [Ronsdog] EU Withdrawal Negotiations or Reply Privately


In Reply To
Is it realistic that the UK would or should offer concessions to move the EU from their current implacable position?


No, we shouldn't. Indeed, we should probably walk away from the talks now until they agree to discuss trade.

I was always of the opinion that talks would fail. The argument about the ECJ is a prime example - they want to have jurisdictions over another sovereign country - who would ever agree to that?

The only area of concern for me is the NI border.


derekn
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Re: [Ronsdog] EU Withdrawal Negotiations or Reply Privately

Correct me if I'm wrong, but we're the ones who want to leave. If you try to get out of any contract early, you have to pay the consequences. The principles are all in the treaties we signed up to, it's only a question of detail about the amount payable. We can't just walk away with no repercussions.


Richard Rundle
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Re: [Ronsdog] EU Withdrawal Negotiations or Reply Privately


In Reply To
Is it realistic that the UK would or should offer concessions to move the EU from their current implacable position?


Of course it is. It is also realistic for the EU to offer concessions to move the UK from their current stubborn position.

That's how negotiations work.


Chris1963
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Re: [Richard Rundle] EU Withdrawal Negotiations or Reply Privately

Can't we have another referendum on leaving the EU - or at least a vote in the Commons - once the talks are over?


Tykeoldboy
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Re: [Chris1963] EU Withdrawal Negotiations or Reply Privately


In Reply To
Can't we have another referendum on leaving the EU - or at least a vote in the Commons - once the talks are over?


Once the negotiations are complete and the British people know what the deal is then there should be a second referendum.


windydcfc
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Re: [derekn] EU Withdrawal Negotiations or Reply Privately


In Reply To
Correct me if I'm wrong, but we're the ones who want to leave. If you try to get out of any contract early, you have to pay the consequences. The principles are all in the treaties we signed up to, it's only a question of detail about the amount payable. We can't just walk away with no repercussions.



The PM was asked several times a PMQ's, what legal advice she's received on leaving the EU & the reports she's received on the economic outcome for the U.K. on leaving the EU. She just refused to answer. Has she actually given a straight answer to anything on TV interviews or PMQ's since the General Election?Crazy


007Dale
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Re: [windydcfc] EU Withdrawal Negotiations or Reply Privately

The PM is being pulled in two directions, one way by Philip Hammond and one by Boris Johnson.

There is absolutely no way things are going to end well.

All because she called that General Election.

The trouble is, a Tory Leadership battle will tear the Tories further apart. Whoever is leader will have the same issue, no majority and pandering to both sides.

I think she'll have to stay until the end of negotiations. But that is far from ideal. Quite frankly had she any power left, she should Have sacked Boris and Hammond.


(This post was edited by 007Dale on Oct 12, 2017, 4:56 PM)


PaulC
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Re: [Tykeoldboy] EU Withdrawal Negotiations or Reply Privately


In Reply To

In Reply To
Can't we have another referendum on leaving the EU - or at least a vote in the Commons - once the talks are over?


Once the negotiations are complete and the British people know what the deal is then there should be a second referendum.


Of course there should. We voted for a pig in a poke. When we eventually discover what was inside that poke we should decide whether or not we want to keep it.

Have we ever had a PM, Deputy, Chancellor and Home Secretary trying to impose on this country something they don't believe in - and in fact believe will be harmful to this country.

Succumbing to populism is a total abrogation of their responsibilities.


(This post was edited by PaulC on Oct 12, 2017, 6:31 PM)


Ronsdog
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Re: [PaulC] EU Withdrawal Negotiations or Reply Privately

An interesting range of diverse opinions to a simple question, which just goes to show how divided we are as a nation.

From walk away now to re-running the whole debate and vote.
That's a huge gap in national thinking if this forum is in any way reflective of the general mood in the country.

The impasse that faces both us and the EU could end in tears for both if diplomacy and goodwill, which is clearly sadly lacking on both sides, doesn't come into play soon.

Could it be in true EU fashion that nothing will be settled until it's all settled, which is still on the table. A last minute fudge of monumental proportions or no deal and what that could potentially bring?


northstandexile
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Re: [Ronsdog] EU Withdrawal Negotiations or Reply Privately

Anybody with any sense knew that coming out of the EU would be impossible without disasterous consequences.

Just can’t believe the nation voted for it, but then I suppose I can with many folk not liking foreigners and being lied to by millionaires.

My major worry is what happens on the NI border, unless everybody just does nothing about the border and leave it at it is.


jon b
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Re: [PaulC] EU Withdrawal Negotiations or Reply Privately


In Reply To
Have we ever had a PM, Deputy, Chancellor and Home Secretary trying to impose on this country something they don't believe in - and in fact believe will be harmful to this country.

Succumbing to populism is a total abrogation of their responsibilities.


It's this hypocrisy of May/Hammond/Green that I find staggering.

I'm personally not in favour of leaving the EU but if the Conservatives are definitely leading us out of it then surely it has to be Brexiteers, people who actually believe in leaving it, who lead, not those who obviously think it's a stupid mistake but are clinging on to power nevertheless.


leohoenig
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Re: [jon b] EU Withdrawal Negotiations or Reply Privately

I thought the lead Brexiteer (aka Boris the Spider), did not actually believe in anything - other than furthering his career
Do we want another Prime Minister who is more interesting in being Prime Minister than what he can achieve from the podium?



Fat AND Pompous.
The proof that you can have too much of a good thing
Now blogging at http://www.leohoenig.com



jon b
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Re: [leohoenig] EU Withdrawal Negotiations or Reply Privately

Apparently billionaire inventor/businessman James Dyson, who wants to walk away from negotiations, sees Brexit as the chance to make it easier to hire and fire people. Though, given his track record, I suspect in reality it's the idea of easier firing that actually appeals to him.

http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/...336fe4b01d21c83eff64

Oddly enough, I don't remember "doing away with workers rights" being put on the side of that Vote Leave Battle Bus during the Referendum campaign.


Tykeoldboy
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Re: [jon b] EU Withdrawal Negotiations or Reply Privately

MP's will be given a final vote once the final deal is put on the table. The final deal might be a lot different to what was voted for in the referendum and maybe there should be a second referendum once everyone knows what they will be getting.


kirby knitters
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Re: [Tykeoldboy] EU Withdrawal Negotiations or Reply Privately

It will certainly not be what i voted for but a second referendum cannot be allowed to take place under any circumstances.

LEAVE MEANS LEAVE!!


Towlawtom
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Re: [jon b] EU Withdrawal Negotiations or Reply Privately


In Reply To
Apparently billionaire inventor/businessman James Dyson, who wants to walk away from negotiations, sees Brexit as the chance to make it easier to hire and fire people. Though, given his track record, I suspect in reality it's the idea of easier firing that actually appeals to him.

http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/...336fe4b01d21c83eff64

Oddly enough, I don't remember "doing away with workers rights" being put on the side of that Vote Leave Battle Bus during the Referendum campaign.


Then you were bring very naive. Workers rights in the UK were always going to be better protected whilst remaining in the EU



I need to have the last word, as it always looks as if I am right !


jrev61
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Re: [kirby knitters] EU Withdrawal Negotiations or Reply Privately


In Reply To
It will certainly not be what i voted for but a second referendum cannot be allowed to take place under any circumstances.

LEAVE MEANS LEAVE!!


So once the British people have been conned they must stay conned!



jrev61


kirby knitters
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Re: [jrev61] EU Withdrawal Negotiations or Reply Privately


In Reply To

In Reply To
It will certainly not be what i voted for but a second referendum cannot be allowed to take place under any circumstances.

LEAVE MEANS LEAVE!!


So once the British people have been conned they must stay conned!

I voted leave and nothing that is potentially around the corner would give me the feeling of being conned whatsoever!

LEAVE MEANS LEAVE!!


Part-Timer
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Re: [Towlawtom] EU Withdrawal Negotiations or Reply Privately


In Reply To

In Reply To
Apparently billionaire inventor/businessman James Dyson, who wants to walk away from negotiations, sees Brexit as the chance to make it easier to hire and fire people. Though, given his track record, I suspect in reality it's the idea of easier firing that actually appeals to him.

http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/...336fe4b01d21c83eff64

Oddly enough, I don't remember "doing away with workers rights" being put on the side of that Vote Leave Battle Bus during the Referendum campaign.


Then you were bring very naive. Workers rights in the UK were always going to be better protected whilst remaining in the EU

It was the greatest failing of the Remain campaign that it failed to get this message across, or even try to. The Labour leadership's lukewarm campaigning for Remain was principally to blame as no Remain supporting Tory was likely to get much of a hearing if they were to start campaigning in favour of workers' rights.


steveking
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Re: [kirby knitters] EU Withdrawal Negotiations or Reply Privately


In Reply To

In Reply To

In Reply To
It will certainly not be what i voted for but a second referendum cannot be allowed to take place under any circumstances.

LEAVE MEANS LEAVE!!


So once the British people have been conned they must stay conned!

I voted leave and nothing that is potentially around the corner would give me the feeling of being conned whatsoever!

So surely no problem with a second referendum if all other Brexiters feel the same as you once the terms of exit are clear.


jon b
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Re: [kirby knitters] EU Withdrawal Negotiations or Reply Privately


In Reply To
It will certainly not be what i voted for but a second referendum cannot be allowed to take place under any circumstances.


Really? Not under any circumstances?!

Personally, I'm not bothered about another Referendum and can cope with the idea of us leaving the EU. But the idea that we can't have second thoughts if extreme pain and problems arise seems a bit far-fetched.

Fortunately, we're led by a PM who doesn't really believe in Brexit backed up by high calibre, competent people such as Bojo, Dr Fox, Pritti and Rees-Mogg so what can possibly go wrong?


kirby knitters
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Re: [jon b] EU Withdrawal Negotiations or Reply Privately

Before departure was my meaning of any as it seems we still have certain individuals who are hell bent on ignoring the will of the people and remaining within the EU.


Impossible to predict what the future holds for us outside or even for the EU but agree with you on PM and others you name as I am beginning to trust them less and less by the day.


jon b
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Re: [kirby knitters] EU Withdrawal Negotiations or Reply Privately

The Remainers seem no more impressive. I suspect that their cause is fatally undermined by Jezza and allies not actually wanting to stay in the European Union.

Just like Dyson and the far right see opportunities for their brand of politics outside the EU, so do the far left.

The problem for the Tories is that whilst Jezza isn't bothered about remaining in the EU he is bothered about using any available stick, including Brexit, to beat May and co and bring about an election.


PaulC
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Re: [kirby knitters] EU Withdrawal Negotiations or Reply Privately


In Reply To
It will certainly not be what i voted for but a second referendum cannot be allowed to take place under any circumstances.

LEAVE MEANS LEAVE!!



BWAHAHAHA! So if we are worse off as a result of no deal or a bad deal we should just act like lemmings and run over the cliff anyway.

Crazy!


007Dale
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Re: [PaulC] EU Withdrawal Negotiations or Reply Privately


In Reply To

In Reply To
It will certainly not be what i voted for but a second referendum cannot be allowed to take place under any circumstances.

LEAVE MEANS LEAVE!!



BWAHAHAHA! So if we are worse off as a result of no deal or a bad deal we should just act like lemmings and run over the cliff anyway.

Crazy!


If there is to be another vote, it should be 5-10 years after we've left. Giving time for things to settle down and see if it's working for us. Equally, it gives Germany and France the free reign to turn the EU into the super-state they want without the UK constantly fighting them.

After that decent period, we can vote knowing the genuine facts of what life is like outside the EU and what going back into the EU would do for us. Anyone that thinks we'll know the implications of leaving, even when or if a deal is agreed, is deluded: it will take years to bed-in.

I strongly suspect that when the dust settles, we'll all be very grateful we left.


(This post was edited by 007Dale on Nov 15, 2017, 10:55 PM)


kirby knitters
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Re: [PaulC] EU Withdrawal Negotiations or Reply Privately


In Reply To

In Reply To
It will certainly not be what i voted for but a second referendum cannot be allowed to take place under any circumstances.

LEAVE MEANS LEAVE!!



BWAHAHAHA! So if we are worse off as a result of no deal or a bad deal we should just act like lemmings and run over the cliff anyway.

Crazy!


------------------

I doubt it will concern you anyway so makes it even better.!!



PaulC
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Re: [kirby knitters] EU Withdrawal Negotiations or Reply Privately


In Reply To

I doubt it will concern you anyway so makes it even better.!!



Do you know something I don't?


PaulC
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Re: [PaulC] EU Withdrawal Negotiations or Reply Privately

It's hard not to laugh at some Leave voters:

"The seaside town of Grimsby voted overwhelmingly to leave the European Union, but now faced with the prospect of hefty tariffs and import duties, it’s now asking for special dispensation for its vital seafood industry."



"Crops in Cornwall are said to be "rotting in the fields" due to a lack of migrant workers to harvest them in the wake of Britain's decision to leave the European Union.

The county council has approached the Government to request it implement area-specific migration laws after Brexit, will help to deliver skills to the area.

Cornwall voted to leave the European Union in last year's referendum by more than 56 per cent,"



You do wonder why Cameron thought it a good idea to offer a referendum on Brexit. At least MPs are semi-intelligent at worst - it should have been their decision and theirs alone.


paulh66
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Re: [PaulC] EU Withdrawal Negotiations or Reply Privately

There'll be all sorts of transitional difficulty and uncertainty such as these examples. What nobody really knows is whether things will be better or worse once we're through the transition. It'll probably be a few years before we can properly assess that.


kirby knitters
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Re: [PaulC] EU Withdrawal Negotiations or Reply Privately


In Reply To

In Reply To

I doubt it will concern you anyway so makes it even better.!!



Do you know something I don't?

Scotland will become an independent nation leaving Holyrood to go poncing of Brussels rather than the rest of us.Laugh


PaulC
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Re: [kirby knitters] EU Withdrawal Negotiations or Reply Privately


In Reply To

In Reply To

In Reply To

I doubt it will concern you anyway so makes it even better.!!



Do you know something I don't?

Scotland will become an independent nation leaving Holyrood to go poncing of Brussels rather than the rest of us.Laugh


When's the referendum? I missed the announcement.

Hard to work out how Scotland can ponce off rUK when rUK operates at a deficit. Perhaps you can enlighten me (you're allowed to refer to the Daily Mail).


(This post was edited by PaulC on Nov 16, 2017, 3:11 PM)


Ronsdog
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Re: [PaulC] EU Withdrawal Negotiations or Reply Privately

 

I don't know about the poncing aspects of Scotland but as this recent study shows the British....that includes the Welsh, those in the North of Ireland and the English....are becoming more EU sceptical by the day.

Could it be that many now realise what a good deal the Europeans have received from us over the past four decades or so?

The Italians, who haven't got a pot to piss in, and the French who truly believe in the project, will have to dig deep to fund the shortfall of cash when we leave.

The Germans will not be enthused at having to fund their European partners wanton spending when the reality of losing British contributions kicks in, and all that that means for the financial position of the Bloc.

http://www.bsa.natcen.ac.uk/...XEAAYAiAAEgLr9fD_BwE


(This post was edited by Ronsdog on Nov 16, 2017, 6:38 PM)


PaulC
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Re: [Ronsdog] EU Withdrawal Negotiations or Reply Privately

Correct me if I am wrong but the document takes us up to the referendun but not beyond.

As the chaos of post-Brexit unfolds and staunch pro-Brexit areas now appeal to be saved from what they have plunged the UK into I think you will find the anti-EU mood peaked in June 2016.


Ronsdog
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Re: [PaulC] EU Withdrawal Negotiations or Reply Privately

 


In 1975 I voted to Remain a member of the European Economic Community, not the EU.

Then as now the political project was disguised and sold as an economic one.

The difference between 1975 and 2016 is that the majority of voters can see the reality.

I voted Leave but would be willing to countenance a Leave/Remain vote on membership of the Single Market via EFTA/EEA, provided it had provision for automatic referendums on leaving EEA if the EU starts eroding sovereignty of non-EU EEA members or using Single Market legislation to inflict social measures on EEA members.


garethwrexy
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Re: [PaulC] EU Withdrawal Negotiations or Reply Privately

Uk will get a good deal



wrexham fc fa trophy winners 2013 !


PaulC
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Re: [garethwrexy] EU Withdrawal Negotiations or Reply Privately


In Reply To
Uk will get a good deal


Of what?


Ronsdog
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Re: [PaulC] EU Withdrawal Negotiations or Reply Privately

The Brexit negotiations are based on emotive reasoning and perception, not a rational basis. It can’t be rational given everything from immigration figures to trade data was proven to be out of whack by proportions rendering them meaningless altogether.

More importantly, the simple truth is that both sides interests are perfectly aligned in a rational world. But the following simple truths are completely lost in the Brexit negotiations, because with them the whole facade would fall:

Free trade is good for both parties, otherwise they wouldn’t trade. Any restriction on free trade makes the parties that would’ve traded worse off because they have to find the next best trading partner, or none at all.

Restricting free trade also interferes with basic property rights. People who own something should be able to sell it to whomever they want. Any restriction is a violation.

A free trade agreement between the UK and EU will really be an agreement restricting trade in a long list of ways. Again, a violation of the right of individuals to trade. The more details in the agreement, the less trade.

The threat of a no-deal scenario is only real because the EU treats countries outside the EU like villains under the World Trade Organisation (WTO) rules. The EU’s trade and other barriers are horrific.

The argument that “no deal is better than a bad deal” is a simple calculation, even if it’s been turned into a political tactic. Compare the EU’s WTO rules with the proposed deal from the EU. None of this “divorce payment” nonsense. Simply sit and wait to discover to what extent the EU is willing to violate the rights and economic prosperity of some chunk of its citizens. If the deal is worse than the WTO rules, then don’t agree. Obviously, no deal would be better than a deal worse than the WTO rules we’d revert to.

The EU cannot be vindictive towards the UK without breaching WTO rules. It must treat Britain equally badly as other nations. Pointing that out will make Remainers realise the nature of the EU and how it harms others. Remaining inside the EU is a selfish motivation – what’s best for Britain in a static world. Brexit, pursued properly, is an opening of Britain to the dynamic world. An abandoning of the EU’s anti-trade “us and them” mindset.

The stories of border control are a total joke. The media is in a furore over the lack of border infrastructure in a no-deal scenario. There’s even news of the army getting involved.

This would be a terrible development. Our borders would begin to look something like the other ones inside the EU thanks to the immigration crisis. There’s military at borders all over the place.

The debate about the border, especially with Ireland, also misses something called a tourism visa. Presumably, Britain won’t prevent people from visiting the country.

This morning on the German news, a victim of Brexit was complaining about what would happen to his business without a deal. The logistics business owner from Dover supposedly said he needed certainty to prepare his business. A no-deal Brexit would mean having to invest in vast amounts of new equipment, pushing up costs.

Consider how nonsensical this argument is. The biggest beneficiaries of Brexit would be precisely this type of business. Border logistics is what they make money from. A no-deal Brexit would mean demand for such services surge as the border is clogged up with companies struggling with the new logistics rules. It’s the business’ customers who would see their costs go up.

Imagine a chocolate manufacturer going on TV to complain about the extra machines they would have to buy to produce more chocolate thanks to growing demand. It’d impose costs. What a ridiculous argument. But it’s on the German news. And that shapes European perceptions of Brexit.

The reason negotiations look so much like Deal or No Deal was best illustrated by home secretary Amber Rudd and Brexit minister David Davis. One said a no-deal scenario is “unthinkable” while the other said it was possible. The EU is reportedly sick of such confusion.

The politicians are doing nothing more than playing Deal or No Deal – a game of emotions. It’s to distract from the basic principles. Both sides’ welfare is perfectly aligned to produce a deal.

Unfortunately, politicians care more about their re-election than their country. (Hence our prime minister’s support of Brexit despite believing it’s a bad idea.) And Brexit is a fantastic political opportunity. It’s like a war with without the costs. Framed correctly, it’ll unify the population behind their leader against their new enemy.

Funnily enough, the electorate in Europe isn’t buying it though. In election after election, euroscepticism is exposing itself on the continent now that it’s more respectable in the wake of Brexit. And the bigger Brexit’s wake, the more will surf the wave of anti-EU sentiment.


mick
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Re: [PaulC] EU Withdrawal Negotiations or Reply Privately


In Reply To
"The seaside town of Grimsby voted overwhelmingly to leave the European Union, but now faced with the prospect of hefty tariffs and import duties, it’s now asking for special dispensation for its vital seafood industry."


"Crops in Cornwall are said to be "rotting in the fields" due to a lack of migrant workers to harvest them in the wake of Britain's decision to leave the European Union.
The county council has approached the Government to request it implement area-specific migration laws after Brexit, will help to deliver skills to the area.
Cornwall voted to leave the European Union in last year's referendum by more than 56 per cent,"


What is the matter with these people.

Surely they know BREXIT MEANS BREXIT (capitals compulsory, apparently).


Part-Timer
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Re: [Ronsdog] EU Withdrawal Negotiations or Reply Privately


In Reply To
Restricting free trade also interferes with basic property rights. People who own something should be able to sell it to whomever they want. Any restriction is a violation.

And border controls interfere with a person's basic right to live anywhere they please and sell their talents to whomsoever wishes to purchase them. Why should we be restricted by an arbitrary line drawn on a map?


kirby knitters
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Re: [kirby knitters] EU Withdrawal Negotiations or Reply Privately

What is all the fuss concerning the border situation with RoI/NI ?


No such problem exists with travelling from France/Italy and Germany into Switzerland and of course there is Sweden/Norway.


Purely a customs thing or does the Good Friday peace agreement deal play a part?


(This post was edited by kirby knitters on Nov 17, 2017, 10:55 AM)


Part-Timer
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Re: [kirby knitters] EU Withdrawal Negotiations or Reply Privately


In Reply To
What is all the fuss concerning the border situation with RoI/NI ?


No such problem exists with travelling from France/Italy and Germany into Switzerland and of course there is Denmark/Norway.


Purely a customs thing or does the Good Friday peace agreement deal play a part?

Travelling is not the problem, it's trade. France, Italy, Germany and Denmark are in the EU. Switzerland and Norway are members of EFTA. Consequently there are no barriers. Unless an agreement is reached, on withdrawal from the EU, the UK will not be members of either and so barriers will exist between the two parts of Ireland so some form of border control will be required.


PaulC
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Re: [Part-Timer] EU Withdrawal Negotiations or Reply Privately


In Reply To

In Reply To
What is all the fuss concerning the border situation with RoI/NI ?


No such problem exists with travelling from France/Italy and Germany into Switzerland and of course there is Denmark/Norway.


Purely a customs thing or does the Good Friday peace agreement deal play a part?

Travelling is not the problem, it's trade. France, Italy, Germany and Denmark are in the EU. Switzerland and Norway are members of EFTA. Consequently there are no barriers. Unless an agreement is reached, on withdrawal from the EU, the UK will not be members of either and so barriers will exist between the two parts of Ireland so some form of border control will be required.

]

I'd have thought travelling is very much a problem. Brexiteers want to pull up the drawbridge. They don't want pesky foreigners entering the UK unhindered, from Ireland.


kirby knitters
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Re: [PaulC] EU Withdrawal Negotiations or Reply Privately


In Reply To

In Reply To

In Reply To
What is all the fuss concerning the border situation with RoI/NI ?


No such problem exists with travelling from France/Italy and Germany into Switzerland and of course there is Denmark/Norway.


Purely a customs thing or does the Good Friday peace agreement deal play a part?

Travelling is not the problem, it's trade. France, Italy, Germany and Denmark are in the EU. Switzerland and Norway are members of EFTA. Consequently there are no barriers. Unless an agreement is reached, on withdrawal from the EU, the UK will not be members of either and so barriers will exist between the two parts of Ireland so some form of border control will be required.

]

I'd have thought travelling is very much a problem. Brexiteers want to pull up the drawbridge. They don't want pesky foreigners entering the UK unhindered, from Ireland.

And there are the people based in NI flying into Dublin from Spain etc with 1000s of EU duty paid fags. Nah, best have an open border!


Richard Rundle
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Re: [kirby knitters] EU Withdrawal Negotiations or Reply Privately


In Reply To
What is all the fuss concerning the border situation with RoI/NI ?


No such problem exists with travelling from France/Italy and Germany into Switzerland and of course there is Sweden/Norway.


Norway and Switzerland are also part of the Schengen area enabling cross-border travel.


PaulC
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Re: [PaulC] EU Withdrawal Negotiations or Reply Privately

Given the complete idiocy of Brexit, I think the most likely scenario is free movement between NI and IRL and border posts at the ports for movement between NI and GB.


007Dale
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Re: [PaulC] EU Withdrawal Negotiations or Reply Privately


In Reply To
Given the complete idiocy of Brexit, I think the most likely scenario is free movement between NI and IRL and border posts at the ports for movement between NI and GB.


Highly unlikely the DUP or British Government will go for internal border.

However, if we could re-point Hadrian's wall, then at least we keep the pesky Scots out!


Ronsdog
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Re: [007Dale] EU Withdrawal Negotiations or Reply Privately


In Reply To

In Reply To

However, if we could re-point Hadrian's wall, then at least we keep the pesky Scots out!


Pesky? Surely you mean querulous?Laugh


PaulC
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Re: [007Dale] EU Withdrawal Negotiations or Reply Privately


In Reply To

In Reply To
Given the complete idiocy of Brexit, I think the most likely scenario is free movement between NI and IRL and border posts at the ports for movement between NI and GB.


Highly unlikely the DUP or British Government will go for internal border.

However, if we could re-point Hadrian's wall, then at least we keep the pesky Scots out!


If you did, you'd be keeping lots of English out too.


PaulC
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Re: [PaulC] EU Withdrawal Negotiations or Reply Privately

 Taoiseach on May's Merry Brexiteers

"It's 10 years since people who wanted a referendum started agitating for one. Sometimes it doesn't seem like they thought all this through."


(This post was edited by PaulC on Nov 17, 2017, 3:58 PM)


Ronsdog
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Re: [PaulC] EU Withdrawal Negotiations or Reply Privately


In Reply To

In Reply To

In Reply To
If you did, you'd be keeping lots of English out too.


I'm sure the English booze runners will find a way across the border when Unit Pricing of Alcohol is enacted.....Wink


(This post was edited by Ronsdog on Nov 17, 2017, 5:53 PM)


Richard Rundle
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Re: [Ronsdog] EU Withdrawal Negotiations or Reply Privately


In Reply To

In Reply To

In Reply To

However, if we could re-point Hadrian's wall, then at least we keep the pesky Scots out!


Pesky? Surely you mean querulous?Laugh


Rebellious Scots to crush?


PaulC
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Re: [Ronsdog] EU Withdrawal Negotiations or Reply Privately


In Reply To

In Reply To

In Reply To

In Reply To
If you did, you'd be keeping lots of English out too.


I'm sure the English booze runners will find a way across the border when Unit Pricing of Alcohol is enacted.....Wink


I suspect the profit on a vanload on cheap 2L bottles of cider won't be great.


(This post was edited by PaulC on Nov 17, 2017, 7:43 PM)


garethwrexy
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Re: [PaulC] EU Withdrawal Negotiations or Reply Privately

David Davis won't let us down he will get good deal



wrexham fc fa trophy winners 2013 !


Ronsdog
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Re: [PaulC] EU Withdrawal Negotiations or Reply Privately


In Reply To

In Reply To

In Reply To

In Reply To

In Reply To
If you did, you'd be keeping lots of English out too.


I'm sure the English booze runners will find a way across the border when Unit Pricing of Alcohol is enacted.....Wink


I suspect the profit on a vanload on cheap 2L bottles of cider won't be great.


I suspect you're not a businessman Mr C.

A 3l bottle of Frosty Jack's cider containing 22.5 units, which currently costs £3.59 in Iceland (the supermarket), will go up to a minimum of £11.25.
(Source STV)

You do the maths.....


(This post was edited by Ronsdog on Nov 17, 2017, 8:59 PM)


garethwrexy
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Re: [Ronsdog] EU Withdrawal Negotiations or Reply Privately

Do you think uk will get good deal yes or no



wrexham fc fa trophy winners 2013 !


leohoenig
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Re: [garethwrexy] EU Withdrawal Negotiations or Reply Privately


In Reply To
Do you think uk will get good deal yes or no


No



Fat AND Pompous.
The proof that you can have too much of a good thing
Now blogging at http://www.leohoenig.com



Climate Change
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Re: [leohoenig] EU Withdrawal Negotiations or Reply Privately


In Reply To

In Reply To
Do you think uk will get good deal yes or no


No


Yes.



I don't need Google. I have a Hoddy.


garethwrexy
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Re: [leohoenig] EU Withdrawal Negotiations or Reply Privately

Tories will deliver a deal that take the uk to the promised land aka better future



wrexham fc fa trophy winners 2013 !


jrev61
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Re: [garethwrexy] EU Withdrawal Negotiations or Reply Privately


In Reply To
Tories will deliver a deal that take the uk to the promised land aka better future



It will be just like a fairy tale. Grimm!



jrev61


Richard Rundle
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Re: [garethwrexy] EU Withdrawal Negotiations or Reply Privately


In Reply To
Tories will deliver a deal that take the uk to the promised land aka better future


You believe that if you want to. I've seen no evidence to this point that the Government have a clue how to get a good deal for the UK


jon b
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Re: [Richard Rundle] EU Withdrawal Negotiations or Reply Privately


In Reply To

In Reply To
Tories will deliver a deal that take the uk to the promised land aka better future


You believe that if you want to. I've seen no evidence to this point that the Government have a clue how to get a good deal for the UK


Or get a deal of any sort.

I thought David Davis looked like a rabbit caught in the headlights on the news tonight.


buncranaboy
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Re: [garethwrexy] EU Withdrawal Negotiations or Reply Privately


In Reply To
Do you think uk will get good deal yes or no


What do you think a good deal would be ?


garethwrexy
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Re: [buncranaboy] EU Withdrawal Negotiations or Reply Privately

Trade deals



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Tykeoldboy
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Re: [garethwrexy] EU Withdrawal Negotiations or Reply Privately

Another issue which just raised it's head is that the EU wants no border between Rep of Ireland and N.I. as part of any trade deal. The UK wants a border between the 2 Irelands. One between N'I' and GB was suggested and Mrs May said that there will never be internal borders in the UK.


garethwrexy
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Re: [Tykeoldboy] EU Withdrawal Negotiations or Reply Privately

Southern Ireland need not worry



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buncranaboy
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Re: [garethwrexy] EU Withdrawal Negotiations or Reply Privately


In Reply To
Southern Ireland need not worry


Why's that then exactly. I'll be very interested in your response.


Mike S
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Re: [buncranaboy] EU Withdrawal Negotiations or Reply Privately

Just as an example, for those who think people will be unaffected, I visited a property south of Newry when working there last year
I missed the turning so took the next one, which meant I crossed the border. I then turned left and approached the house from the other direction, crossing back. Only the speed limit signs suggested I had crossed back, there is not even a sign. The border runs at an angle across the road. The school is in the north but the nearest petrol station is the south, that primarily sells diesel but price means unleaded is bought elsewhere. The school is open to children from either side, the road has scattered houses along it and even the numbers do not change at the border
If a hard border exists, then the road will be closed, I was told, including to foot traffic some children will lose the option of walking to school and the local shop might become uneconomic. At no stage in history has a border existed apart from when the UK closed it unofficially during the troubles
The disruption to the local community, who I would guess voted against Brexit would be immense
Even as someone who voted Brexit, I would suggest the answer to this has to come from our government. Having crossed or been close to the border numerous times, I cannot see a solution, unless the border is at the ports and airports. At present that would require the support of the DUP and I think it is fair to describe this as unlikely


jrev61
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Re: [Mike S] EU Withdrawal Negotiations or Reply Privately

Only 57 Billlion Euros to leave the EU!
I wonder how many people would have voted 'Leave' if they knew the size of the bill, especially if there are major cuts to come to pay for this.



jrev61


Ronsdog
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Re: [jrev61] EU Withdrawal Negotiations or Reply Privately


In Reply To
Only 57 Billlion Euros to leave the EU!
I wonder how many people would have voted 'Leave' if they knew the size of the bill, especially if there are major cuts to come to pay for this.


A not insignificant amount.
In reality it represents three years of our current net contribution to the EUs coffers.
As a nation that generally honours its international agreements it seems, to this leaver at least, a fair settlement.

A long way from the 100 billion that was first demanded by an EU that is and will increasingly become, desperate for cash.

Let's not forget the UK market supports tens of thousands of jobs on the mainland......Wink


Mike S
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Re: [Ronsdog] EU Withdrawal Negotiations or Reply Privately

If the figure is correct and was accepted by all sides and our net contribution is 19 million euro a year to an organisation that is undemocratic, out of touch, hates us and to be honest racist, then maybe the out vote would have been much higher
Maybe there is money for the NHS as well
I have some reservations as stated in a previous post, but would still vote the same


leohoenig
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Re: [Mike S] EU Withdrawal Negotiations or Reply Privately

Billions, not Millions, Mike

And this is, by and large the sum suggested by the Brexit campaign - it said £350 million per week on the side of the bus, which is £18.2 billion

Despite the chaotic nature of the talks, the worst things said by the anti-brexit campaign have not come to pass
However, the great Brexit promises have also not come to pass, (and are never likely to)



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mip
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Re: [Ronsdog] EU Withdrawal Negotiations or Reply Privately


In Reply To

Let's not forget the UK market supports tens of thousands of jobs on the mainland......Wink


And the EU market supports... no jobs... in the UK? Wink

Remember jobs in mainland Europe (and islands) should be divided between 27 nations, jobs in the UK between 1 nation.


007Dale
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Re: [leohoenig] EU Withdrawal Negotiations or Reply Privately


In Reply To
Billions, not Millions, Mike

And this is, by and large the sum suggested by the Brexit campaign - it said £350 million per week on the side of the bus, which is £18.2 billion

Despite the chaotic nature of the talks, the worst things said by the anti-brexit campaign have not come to pass
However, the great Brexit promises have also not come to pass, (and are never likely to)


I suspect that given the recent talk of further and deeper EU integration, the vote would be greater in favour of leaving. As you say, the doomsday scenarios painted by Mr Osborne didn't materialise, although accepting we haven't actually left yet.

If we do have to pay this sort of sum, one assumes it's contingent on a pretty good and comprehensive free-trade deal, which again dampens any post-BREXIT nerves.


garethwrexy
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Re: [buncranaboy] EU Withdrawal Negotiations or Reply Privately

Southern Ireland and its economy is in a long but slow recovery, think Brexit may even benefit the country



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buncranaboy
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Re: [garethwrexy] EU Withdrawal Negotiations or Reply Privately


In Reply To
Southern Ireland and its economy is in a long but slow recovery, think Brexit may even benefit the country


How will Brexit benefit the Republic ?


jon b
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Re: [Tykeoldboy] EU Withdrawal Negotiations or Reply Privately


In Reply To
Another issue which just raised it's head is that the EU wants no border between Rep of Ireland and N.I. as part of any trade deal. The UK wants a border between the 2 Irelands. One between N'I' and GB was suggested and Mrs May said that there will never be internal borders in the UK.


As I understand it the Irish Government are insisting that May & Co formally acknowledge that there can't be a "Hard border" between Northern Ireland and the Republic.

Which basically is acknowledging reality. Any such border disappeared forever along with the Watchtowers, military checkpoints, army patrols etc at the time of the Good Friday agreement.

I'd have thought one major problem is how do you control immigration into the UK after Brexit without a hard border? Ireland aren't going to stop free movement from the rest of the EU into Ireland and the DUP don't want any controls over movement between N Ireland and the rest of the UK.

And, thanks to her General Election foul-up, Mrs May is reliant on the votes of the ten DUP MPs.

Meanwhile Nicola Sturgeon and co are very interested in any Brexit deal that treats Northern Ireland differently to the rest of the UK. After all, if one bit of the UK is treated differently from the rest, why not Scotland too?


007Dale
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Re: [jon b] EU Withdrawal Negotiations or Reply Privately


In Reply To
Meanwhile Nicola Sturgeon and co are very interested in any Brexit deal that treats Northern Ireland differently to the rest of the UK. After all, if one bit of the UK is treated differently from the rest, why not Scotland too?


Remind me where Scotland's land border with the EU27 is?


PaulC
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Re: [007Dale] EU Withdrawal Negotiations or Reply Privately


In Reply To

In Reply To
Meanwhile Nicola Sturgeon and co are very interested in any Brexit deal that treats Northern Ireland differently to the rest of the UK. After all, if one bit of the UK is treated differently from the rest, why not Scotland too?


Remind me where Scotland's land border with the EU27 is?


Land or sea, it doesn't matter one iota. If preferential treatment is being given to one constituent nation of the UK it needs to be given to all constituent nations.

Somehow I don't think the Tories will be using the "coalition of chaos" smear again any time soon.

Robert Peston has it sussed.

https://blogs.spectator.co.uk/...lations-with-the-eu/


(This post was edited by PaulC on Dec 5, 2017, 8:41 AM)


007Dale
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Re: [PaulC] EU Withdrawal Negotiations or Reply Privately


In Reply To

In Reply To

In Reply To
Meanwhile Nicola Sturgeon and co are very interested in any Brexit deal that treats Northern Ireland differently to the rest of the UK. After all, if one bit of the UK is treated differently from the rest, why not Scotland too?


Remind me where Scotland's land border with the EU27 is?


Land or sea, it doesn't matter one iota. If preferential treatment is being given to one constituent nation of the UK it needs to be given to all constituent nations.

Somehow I don't think the Tories will be using the "coalition of chaos" smear again any time soon.

Robert Peston has it sussed.

https://blogs.spectator.co.uk/...lations-with-the-eu/


I must have missed the bit where the EU set out Scotland as one of the areas needing progress before we can start trade talks.

We need to agree enough to start trade talks, then we can get to other bits.

To quote Theresa May: "nothing's agreed until everything's agreed".

We just need to move on, if we don't get the trade deal we want these three negotiating points are all for nothing anyway. But by all means, let's slow down the process to appease everyone.


PaulC
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Re: [007Dale] EU Withdrawal Negotiations or Reply Privately


In Reply To

I must have missed the bit where the EU set out Scotland as one of the areas needing progress before we can start trade talks.


The only reason that is the case is because useless May made it the case. The DUP have the Tories by the short and curlies.

Maybe bunging the DUP another billion will buy them off.

I wonder who thought it was a bright idea to suggest to the arch-Unionists there would have to be custom controls between NI and the rest of the UK.

I notice Ed Miliband summed up this useless shower on twitter

"What an absolutely ludicrous, incompetent, absurd, make it up as you go along, couldn’t run a piss up in a brewery bunch of jokers there are running the government at the most critical time in a generation for the country."

Maybe May should call a General Election to strengthen her hand. Laugh

As for Scotland the only thing preventing the Tories from standing up for Scotland in the same way they have stood up for NI is political will. Scotland will be UK nation worst affected by catastrophic Brexit and is the nation most opposed to it. The Tories want Scotland to suffer just as the rest of the UK will; and all because a minority of the English electorate aren't too keen on Johnny Foreigner.


(This post was edited by PaulC on Dec 5, 2017, 9:01 AM)


PaulC
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Re: [PaulC] EU Withdrawal Negotiations or Reply Privately

Looks like the only way out of this unholy mess is a second referendum to undo the damage done by the Brexiteers.

The last poll showed an 8% lead for those opposing Brexit ... so there is still some hope.


Part-Timer
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Re: [PaulC] EU Withdrawal Negotiations or Reply Privately

Having failed to convince the UK population of the need to Remain and now the DUP to get on board with their 'solution' perhaps the best bet for this hopeless shower who are currently in office is to try to persuade the Republic to leave the EU. We could then negotiate terms with the Republic alone without it holding up Brexit trade talks. What could possibly go wrong? Tongue

Or maybe they should just admit that it's all too difficult for them and resign.


PaulC
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Re: [Part-Timer] EU Withdrawal Negotiations or Reply Privately


In Reply To
Having failed to convince the UK population of the need to Remain and now the DUP to get on board with their 'solution' perhaps the best bet for this hopeless shower who are currently in office is to try to persuade the Republic to leave the EU. We could then negotiate terms with the Republic alone without it holding up Brexit trade talks. What could possibly go wrong? Tongue

Or maybe they should just admit that it's all too difficult for them and resign.

That or hand back the annexed part of Ireland to the Republic.


mick
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Re: [007Dale] EU Withdrawal Negotiations or Reply Privately


In Reply To
To quote Theresa May: "nothing's agreed until everything's agreed".


Quoting Theresa May .... priceless !

Remind me again who it was who said "I'm not going to be calling a snap election. I am very clear we need a period of stability and have the election in 2020".


gcnc
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Re: [PaulC] EU Withdrawal Negotiations or Reply Privately


In Reply To

I notice Ed Miliband summed up this useless shower on twitter

"What an absolutely ludicrous, incompetent, absurd, make it up as you go along, couldn’t run a piss up in a brewery bunch of jokers there are running the government at the most critical time in a generation for the country."


Which is rather ironic, because if the Labour leadership pre-2015 hadn't themselves been an "absolutely ludicrous, incompetent, absurd, make it up as you go along, couldn't run a ..." etc, the Tories would not have won a majority, and there would have been no referendum.

You had one job, Ed!


Richard Rundle
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Re: [gcnc] EU Withdrawal Negotiations or Reply Privately

So a couple of months ago, David Davis said that 58 sector-based assessments of the impact of leaving the EU would have on British business were under way.

Today, we learn that none of them have been done. What on earth have the "Department for Exiting the European Union" been doing?


hawkwind
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Re: [Richard Rundle] EU Withdrawal Negotiations or Reply Privately


In Reply To
So a couple of months ago, David Davis said that 58 sector-based assessments of the impact of leaving the EU would have on British business were under way.

Today, we learn that none of them have been done. What on earth have the "Department for Exiting the European Union" been doing?


The European Parliament has commissioned dozens of impact assessments including four on UK-Ireland relations.

These are publicly available free of charge.


hawkwind
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Re: [Richard Rundle] EU Withdrawal Negotiations or Reply Privately


In Reply To
So a couple of months ago, David Davis said that 58 sector-based assessments of the impact of leaving the EU would have on British business were under way.

Today, we learn that none of them have been done. What on earth have the "Department for Exiting the European Union" been doing?


And here are a few David Davis quotes on those assessments.

Why the lies?


bakis
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Re: [hawkwind] EU Withdrawal Negotiations or Reply Privately

I quite liked the Guardian sketch headline 'The dog ate my impact assessments'.
History may repeat itself as tragedy and farce, but usually not at the same time.


007Dale
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Re: [bakis] EU Withdrawal Negotiations or Reply Privately

Well, despite all of the doom earlier this week, it looks like we'll be moving on to the next phases of negotiations.

Still plenty to sort out, but the markets like it.


UKPunk
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Re: [Richard Rundle] EU Withdrawal Negotiations or Reply Privately


In Reply To
So a couple of months ago, David Davis said that 58 sector-based assessments of the impact of leaving the EU would have on British business were under way.

Today, we learn that none of them have been done. What on earth have the "Department for Exiting the European Union" been doing?


Looking at porn maybe?...Sly



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garethwrexy
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Re: [bakis] EU Withdrawal Negotiations or Reply Privately

Part 1 Brexit agreed Smile



wrexham fc fa trophy winners 2013 !


buncranaboy
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Re: [garethwrexy] EU Withdrawal Negotiations or Reply Privately

So how are you going to stop all those pesky Johnny Foreigners just crossing the "soft" Irish border to gain access to Britain ?


PaulC
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Re: [buncranaboy] EU Withdrawal Negotiations or Reply Privately


In Reply To
So how are you going to stop all those pesky Johnny Foreigners just crossing the "soft" Irish border to gain access to Britain ?


It's all smoke and mirrors.

Yesterday Davis said the 'agreement' wasn't legally enforceable, today he says it is.

The Tories haven't a clue how to get out of the hole they have dug for themselves.

It'll all end in tears.


kirby knitters
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Re: [PaulC] EU Withdrawal Negotiations or Reply Privately

Not legally binding but must be honored in full according to Brussels. Not just the Conservatives then who don't seem to know what the hell is going on but there again with them holding all the cards (or so they believe) they can afford to come out with such nonsense.


Part-Timer
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Re: [PaulC] EU Withdrawal Negotiations or Reply Privately


In Reply To

In Reply To
So how are you going to stop all those pesky Johnny Foreigners just crossing the "soft" Irish border to gain access to Britain ?


It's all smoke and mirrors.

Yesterday Davis said the 'agreement' wasn't legally enforceable, today he says it is.

The Tories haven't a clue how to get out of the hole they have dug for themselves.

It'll all end in tears.

All they have done is kicked the can down the road so that they can pretend they have solved this problem to enable them to start on the trade negotiations. It will come back to bite them. They are a shambles.


buncranaboy
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Re: [Part-Timer] EU Withdrawal Negotiations or Reply Privately

That's how I see it as well. As Gareth continues to post on this thread I was hoping to find out what he thought about it.


Ronsdog
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Re: [buncranaboy] EU Withdrawal Negotiations or Reply Privately


In Reply To
That's how I see it as well. As Gareth continues to post on this thread I was hoping to find out what he thought about it.


The full text of the 'Agreement to move on to Phase 2 of the negotiations'.......https://ec.europa.eu/...les/joint_report.pdf

As has been noted by previous posters it is no more than a statement of intent and its various clauses are open to interpretation. It is in no way a Legally Binding Document but Davis was correct in his rather imprudent comments when he stated the same.

The document is only clear on its fundamental principles regarding the EUs four mantras. However with regard to movement of EU citizens in Ireland they have conceded that any bilateral UK/ROI agreement will take precedence. Clause 54.....well that's how I construed it!

So many Clauses can be interpreted any which way and the caveats which cover these points can mean anything or nothing. It's simply another fudge as we edge ever closer to the final outcome.

Obviously the EU are realistic enough, unlike some on here, to be in no doubt of the fact that we are leaving and the next stage of the negotiations will probably continue in the same manner.

Testy!


(This post was edited by Ronsdog on Dec 12, 2017, 5:39 PM)


garethwrexy
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Re: [buncranaboy] EU Withdrawal Negotiations or Reply Privately

Do mean Brexit it will take this country to the promised land aka Better life



wrexham fc fa trophy winners 2013 !


UKPunk
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Re: [garethwrexy] EU Withdrawal Negotiations or Reply Privately


In Reply To
Do mean Brexit it will take this country to the promised land aka Better life

A better life for whom exactly? With this lot in charge the only people becoming better off are already better off, and that wouldn't change regardless of how the referendum vote went.



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PaulC
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Re: [garethwrexy] EU Withdrawal Negotiations or Reply Privately


In Reply To
Do mean Brexit it will take this country to the promised land aka Better life


The closure of Airbus at Broughton won't be good for your country.

https://www.theguardian.com/...ced-out-after-brexit


Climate Change
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Re: [PaulC] EU Withdrawal Negotiations or Reply Privately


In Reply To

In Reply To
Do mean Brexit it will take this country to the promised land aka Better life


The closure of Airbus at Broughton won't be good for your country.

https://www.theguardian.com/...ced-out-after-brexit


Conjecture. Like most Brexit comments.



I don't need Google. I have a Hoddy.


leohoenig
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Re: [Climate Change] EU Withdrawal Negotiations or Reply Privately

but not idle conjecture cc.
Airbus moving out of the UK will not happen in the spring of 2019, just because we have left - but contracts from Airbus and similar will be more difficult to obtain as the years go by. This is not just a question in North Wales, but for their suppliers such as GE Aviation, where I have been working.
Their American owners may well no longer invest in factories in Hamble and Cheltenham, but look instead to other places to satisfy EU markets.



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PaulC
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Re: [leohoenig] EU Withdrawal Negotiations or Reply Privately

Daily Express

"Brexit SHOCK warning: Britain will be WORSE OFF out of the EU under ALL Brexit scenarios"


paulh66
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Re: [PaulC] EU Withdrawal Negotiations or Reply Privately


In Reply To
Daily Express

"Brexit SHOCK warning: Britain will be WORSE OFF out of the EU under ALL Brexit scenarios"


So what? The important thing is that Britain has now decided its own fate rather than Brussels... Wink.


jrev61
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Re: [paulh66] EU Withdrawal Negotiations or Reply Privately


In Reply To

In Reply To
Daily Express

"Brexit SHOCK warning: Britain will be WORSE OFF out of the EU under ALL Brexit scenarios"


So what? The important thing is that Britain has now decided its own fate rather than Brussels... Wink.



I really can't understand people who are quite happy for the country to be worse off as long as we are 'independent'.
As for making our own decisions I would rather almost anyone ran the country (Donald Trump excepted) than the current bunch of incompetents.
Personally I can't think of one decision that Brussels has made that has had an adverse effect on me.
Personally I am losing faith in democracy, it just gives us idiots like Trump and self seeking useless politicians.
The country would be better if it was run by experts in their field. ie someone with 30 years of experience in the NHS running things, rather than a Tory minister of health only interested in saving money.



jrev61


Tykeoldboy
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Re: [jrev61] EU Withdrawal Negotiations or Reply Privately

MP's and the Lords will vote on the final outcome of the Brexit deal once it has been finalised. No doubt it will be made known that it will be a free vote with members expected to toe the party line.


buncranaboy
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Re: [paulh66] EU Withdrawal Negotiations or Reply Privately


In Reply To

In Reply To
Daily Express

"Brexit SHOCK warning: Britain will be WORSE OFF out of the EU under ALL Brexit scenarios"


So what? The important thing is that Britain has now decided its own fate rather than Brussels... Wink.

One of your most idiotic posts..anc that's saying something 🙄


paulh66
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Re: [buncranaboy] EU Withdrawal Negotiations or Reply Privately

Seems at least one poster is suffering irony recognition failure today. CrazyTongue


mip
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Re: [Tykeoldboy] EU Withdrawal Negotiations or Reply Privately


In Reply To
MP's and the Lords will vote on the final outcome of the Brexit deal once it has been finalised. No doubt it will be made known that it will be a free vote with members expected to toe the party line.


And if the final Brexit deal is rejected in the British Parliament exactly what will then happen? There's no possibility of renegotiating the deal.


coops
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Re: [garethwrexy] EU Withdrawal Negotiations or Reply Privately


In Reply To
Do mean Brexit it will take this country to the promised land aka Better life


Not sure about a Better Life but it might reduce a few of us into living the Good Life.


PaulC
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Re: [coops] EU Withdrawal Negotiations or Reply Privately

Victory for Parliament as it votes 309-305 to take charge of final Brexit deal.


garethwrexy
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Re: [coops] EU Withdrawal Negotiations or Reply Privately

Brexit will transform the uk



wrexham fc fa trophy winners 2013 !


Tykeoldboy
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Re: [mip] EU Withdrawal Negotiations or Reply Privately


In Reply To

In Reply To
MP's and the Lords will vote on the final outcome of the Brexit deal once it has been finalised. No doubt it will be made known that it will be a free vote with members expected to toe the party line.


And if the final Brexit deal is rejected in the British Parliament exactly what will then happen? There's no possibility of renegotiating the deal.


If the deal is rejected by MP's or in the Lords then Mrs May would have to resign, assuming she's hasn't gone by then. There could possibly be a GE with deal or no deal the main policy on the table.

A no deal would also be a kick in the bagpipes for Miss Nicola with Scotland remaining in the EU through UK membership meaning no appetite for independence from the Scots.


(This post was edited by Tykeoldboy on Dec 13, 2017, 7:59 PM)


PaulC
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Re: [Tykeoldboy] EU Withdrawal Negotiations or Reply Privately


In Reply To

In Reply To

In Reply To
MP's and the Lords will vote on the final outcome of the Brexit deal once it has been finalised. No doubt it will be made known that it will be a free vote with members expected to toe the party line.


And if the final Brexit deal is rejected in the British Parliament exactly what will then happen? There's no possibility of renegotiating the deal.


If the deal is rejected by MP's or in the Lords then Mrs May would have to resign, assuming she's hasn't gone by then. There could possibly be a GE with deal or no deal the main policy on the table.

A no deal would also be a kick in the bagpipes for Miss Nicola with Scotland remaining in the EU through UK membership meaning no appetite for independence from the Scots.


Eh? The SNP is the only major party advocating the total rejection of Brexit.

The SNP is fighting for EU membership as part of the UK.


mip
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Re: [Tykeoldboy] EU Withdrawal Negotiations or Reply Privately


In Reply To

In Reply To

In Reply To
MP's and the Lords will vote on the final outcome of the Brexit deal once it has been finalised. No doubt it will be made known that it will be a free vote with members expected to toe the party line.


And if the final Brexit deal is rejected in the British Parliament exactly what will then happen? There's no possibility of renegotiating the deal.


If the deal is rejected by MP's or in the Lords then Mrs May would have to resign, assuming she's hasn't gone by then. There could possibly be a GE with deal or no deal the main policy on the table.

A no deal would also be a kick in the bagpipes for Miss Nicola with Scotland remaining in the EU through UK membership meaning no appetite for independence from the Scots.


But UK cannot remain an EU member unless Article 50 is revoked. So UK would have to leave EU without any deal if the "final deal" is rejected. Or?

As I see it, the vote put before MPs and Lords would be accept deal and UK leave EU in an (somewhat) orderly manner or reject it and UK leave EU without any deal which would be catastrophic for the British economy.

I might be wrong.


Tykeoldboy
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Re: [mip] EU Withdrawal Negotiations or Reply Privately

Or the deal is rejected and the UK remains in the EU. The only person coming out of this farce smelling of roses is David Cameron and he was the one that put the country in this mess in the first place.


jrev61
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Re: [garethwrexy] EU Withdrawal Negotiations or Reply Privately


In Reply To
Brexit will transform the uk



That's true. It will transform us into a third world country, where everything of value has been bought by the Chinese, Americans or Arabs.



jrev61


leohoenig
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Re: [jrev61] EU Withdrawal Negotiations or Reply Privately


In Reply To

In Reply To
Brexit will transform the uk



That's true. It will transform us into a third world country, where everything of value has been bought by the Chinese, Americans or Arabs.


The Chinese bought me long ago. I thought they already had everything of value



Fat AND Pompous.
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kirby knitters
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Re: [Tykeoldboy] EU Withdrawal Negotiations or Reply Privately


In Reply To
Or the deal is rejected and the UK remains in the EU. The only person coming out of this farce smelling of roses is David Cameron and he was the one that put the country in this mess in the first place.

----------
He promised a referendum and duly obliged on returning to office the problem was the result didn't go the way he expected or hoped so he buggered off and left everyone else to get on with it when even as a remainer he could have stayed on through the transitional period and saved both us and the party all the bother that we are now encountering.



Part-Timer
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Re: [garethwrexy] EU Withdrawal Negotiations or Reply Privately


In Reply To
Do mean Brexit it will take this country to the promised land aka Better life

We are leaving Europe and moving to Israel? They kept that quiet in the run up to the referendum.


PaulC
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Re: [mip] EU Withdrawal Negotiations or Reply Privately


In Reply To

As I see it, the vote put before MPs and Lords would be accept deal and UK leave EU in an (somewhat) orderly manner or reject it and UK leave EU without any deal which would be catastrophic for the British economy.

I might be wrong.


Parliament is sovereign - not the government. Now that some Tory backbenchers have started to grow a backbone it is less likely the option presented to parliament by the government will be " take it or leave it" .

I think Parliament will require the Brexit settlement to be presented by the government well in advance of 29 March 2019, so that it can be properly scrutinised. The Government will be told to renegotiate any terms which Parliament is unhappy with.

Article 50 is merely a notification of intention to leave the EU. It is not a legally binding commitment. Rather than "deal or no deal" the outcome may well be "deal or remain in the EU".

If the Tory rebels stand firm and even attract new recruits (because always remember the vast majority of MPs campaigned against Brexit), this folly can still be prevented. At worst they might secure a second referendum on the final deal.


Chris1963
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Re: [PaulC] EU Withdrawal Negotiations or Reply Privately

Wasn't David Davis (I may have been thinking of someone else) quoted the other week as saying that there was a 20% chance that Brexit won't happen?

Following last night's vote in the Commons (the best news in a long time as far as I'm concerned) I think the chances of Brexit are now 50-50. If we do get a second referendum, I think there will be a narrow victory for Remain, because they will hold on to at least the same number of votes they got the first time, while those voting Leave will drop significantly. This is because, in my opinion, their victory in the first referendum was due to a lot of protest votes from people who didn't think the result would be taken seriously.


(This post was edited by Chris1963 on Dec 14, 2017, 4:27 PM)


HantsLondoner
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Re: [PaulC] EU Withdrawal Negotiations or Reply Privately

Death threats for Dominic Grieve already, he says :-/

Yesterday was one small victory for democracy, in not allowing the Brexiteers, with the connivance of the government, to run roughshod over the process. We need a check and balance, we have needed it all along, but Labour has its own internal problems on Brexit, so is useless in that respect.

I can't seriously believe that the Brexit team will have everything ready for perusal (and possibly re-perusal) by Parliament in time for Feb 2019. The subject of Ireland has not been 'solved', it has merely been kicked down the road (how can there not be a border if the UK isn't going to be in the Single Market?) and will cause an insurmountable problem.
The DUP and the rabid wing of the Tory party will not compromise. The Republic correctly does not trust the UK on this, nor does the EU after Davis' attempted U-turn last week. They will insist on a watertight agreement and I'm not sure how Davis and his mob will satisfy them.

A solution will involve much compromise and a big face-saving exercise on all sides as a deal will not be anyone's ideal situation.

How anyone could sell a second referendum to half the UK I can't imagine. How Davis can sell a hard Brexit to the other half I also can't imagine. The only possible compromise that I can see is a soft Brexit, which begs the question as to why the UK will end up paying £50B or whatever for a similar situation to before. Now that the unions have come out and said that they prefer this solution, it might (might) prompt Corbyn into action and something might happen.

Unless.... we start again, and bring in a NON-POLITICAL team to try and sort this out, the UK will be ruined for years. It's the adoption of Brexit into the last election and subsequent discussions that is the main problem. And the Tory party's internal politics.



If you're going to/been to a Hampshire Premier League match, I'd really appreciate you filling in a questionnaire - available in the Groundhopping/General section, or just PM me for a copy. Thanks.

(This post was edited by HantsLondoner on Dec 14, 2017, 5:51 PM)


007Dale
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Re: [HantsLondoner] EU Withdrawal Negotiations or Reply Privately

As a Brexiteer, let me be clear - Parliament is sovereign. I have no personal issue with the Tory 'rebels' - they have every right to rebel. But, we will still leave the EU. Anyone that thinks otherwise is deluded.


PaulC
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Re: [HantsLondoner] EU Withdrawal Negotiations or Reply Privately


In Reply To

Unless.... we start again, and bring in a NON-POLITICAL team to try and sort this out, the UK will be ruined for years. It's the adoption of Brexit into the last election and subsequent discussions that is the main problem. And the Tory party's internal politics.


I've been thinking for a while that the only way out if this mess created by the Tories is a National Government, formed from sane MPs.


PaulC
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Re: [007Dale] EU Withdrawal Negotiations or Reply Privately


In Reply To
As a Brexiteer, let me be clear - Parliament is sovereign. I have no personal issue with the Tory 'rebels' - they have every right to rebel. But, we will still leave the EU. Anyone that thinks otherwise is deluded.


That will be up to Parliament, no one else.


Ronsdog
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Re: [PaulC] EU Withdrawal Negotiations or Reply Privately


In Reply To

In Reply To
As a Brexiteer, let me be clear - Parliament is sovereign. I have no personal issue with the Tory 'rebels' - they have every right to rebel. But, we will still leave the EU. Anyone that thinks otherwise is deluded.


That will be up to Parliament, no one else.


A hung parliament at that, and together with a divided nation it woe betides the Tory Remainers to derail the Brexit process.........Tories or Turkeys voting for Christmas?

The negotiations will be even tougher as we enter the Trading Relationship phase.

With weakened governments all across Europe, ours by streets the weakest, it will take a diplomatic effort of gargantuan proportions to somehow maintain free trade across the continent.

We've heard much about the EFTA/EEA option, the Norway and Canada arrangements but no one has yet raised the Ukraine and its special treatment.

Their trading position in the current scenario is interesting and could be an out for all parties.

With a bit of tweaking the UK could well agree to such an arrangement. If a special deal for another third party can work why not a special deal for the UK?

Do the EU really want to punish us and by doing so themselves? If that proves to be the case it only confirms my opinion of the Bloc.

Protectionist and a political project in disguise.


leohoenig
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Re: [PaulC] EU Withdrawal Negotiations or Reply Privately

I think we can see clearly that Parliament has not been sovereign so far.
By holding a referendum, Parliament has anyway removed part of their right to rule.
Like it or not (and for the record, I am a not), the people voted for Brexit.
Parliament must act to deliver the will of the people.

However, the referendum did not give options between "hard" and "soft" Brexits.
Also while the vote was in favour of Brexit, it was marginal. So much so as if it had gone against Brexit by the same margin, the pro Brexit group would still have hailed a "victory", (otherwise known as a defeat), and they would have still been campaigning for Brexit.

Now assuming that the majority of those who voted against Brexit would prefer a "soft" Brexit to a "hard"
And also surely, most of those who voted the other way prefer the "soft" option to no disengagement at all
...then surely it is the job of the Government to find a solution that while not satisfying everyone, is at least seen my a majority as preferable to some of the alternatives
...and it is the job of parliament to hold the government up to scrutiny in their negotiations on these points.

In my view, the government has not even shown that they no what their job is, but at least with this vote parliament has reaffirmed that it has the right to do its job

Meanwhile, can the new royal couple, after marriage get a move on to deliver a headline grabbing baby at the right time to remove the final Brexit from the headlines?



Fat AND Pompous.
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Now blogging at http://www.leohoenig.com



Fanatic
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Re: [leohoenig] EU Withdrawal Negotiations or Reply Privately


In Reply To
Parliament must act to deliver the will of the people.


Parliament's role is not to deliver the will of the people. It's to deliver what is best for the country. In many cases this goes against the will of the people for a wide variety of reasons including the need to protect of citizens, a lack of understanding amongst the general public on issues or simply the role of politicians being to lead public opinion rather than follow it (e.g. liberalisation of laws on homosexuality).

The danger of the 'will of the people' concept is that it also enables concepts like 'enemies of the people', which the Mail/Express/Telegraph have jumped on over the last year or two.


007Dale
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Re: [Fanatic] EU Withdrawal Negotiations or Reply Privately


In Reply To

In Reply To
Parliament must act to deliver the will of the people.


Parliament's role is not to deliver the will of the people. It's to deliver what is best for the country. In many cases this goes against the will of the people for a wide variety of reasons including the need to protect of citizens, a lack of understanding amongst the general public on issues or simply the role of politicians being to lead public opinion rather than follow it (e.g. liberalisation of laws on homosexuality).

The danger of the 'will of the people' concept is that it also enables concepts like 'enemies of the people', which the Mail/Express/Telegraph have jumped on over the last year or two.


Surely that view is nul-and-void when Parliament ask peoples opinion through a referendum? Let's not forget that parliament has voted to trigger article 50.

I do accept that nothing has been decided on the type of Brexit and that is for the government, supported by parliament, to decide.


Fanatic
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Re: [007Dale] EU Withdrawal Negotiations or Reply Privately


In Reply To

In Reply To

In Reply To
Parliament must act to deliver the will of the people.


Parliament's role is not to deliver the will of the people. It's to deliver what is best for the country. In many cases this goes against the will of the people for a wide variety of reasons including the need to protect of citizens, a lack of understanding amongst the general public on issues or simply the role of politicians being to lead public opinion rather than follow it (e.g. liberalisation of laws on homosexuality).

The danger of the 'will of the people' concept is that it also enables concepts like 'enemies of the people', which the Mail/Express/Telegraph have jumped on over the last year or two.


Surely that view is nul-and-void when Parliament ask peoples opinion through a referendum? Let's not forget that parliament has voted to trigger article 50.

I do accept that nothing has been decided on the type of Brexit and that is for the government, supported by parliament, to decide.


If the referendum had been legally binding. But it wasn't and given the untruthful nature of the campaign and the relatively small margin of victory, I think Parliamentarians would be well within their rights to discard the result and to try and explain to the public the reasons why.

In general I think referendums are a bad idea, particularly in countries where the media landscape is heavily distorted by oligarchs with their own agendas. As Clement Attlee said (and Margaret Thatcher repeated), referendums are a device of dictators and demagogues


PaulC
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Re: [leohoenig] EU Withdrawal Negotiations or Reply Privately


In Reply To
I think we can see clearly that Parliament has not been sovereign so far.
By holding a referendum, Parliament has anyway removed part of their right to rule.
Like it or not (and for the record, I am a not), the people voted for Brexit.
Parliament must act to deliver the will of the people.


We are a parliamentary democracy, not a populist one. Legally, the referendum was consultative only.

It is unthinkable that MPs embark on a course of action they believe will damage the nation. Despite most MPs having argued Brexit will hsrm the country they are still intent on doing just that

One can but hope thst Labour gets its act together and thst more Tories grow a backbone..


007Dale
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Re: [Fanatic] EU Withdrawal Negotiations or Reply Privately


In Reply To

In Reply To

In Reply To

In Reply To
Parliament must act to deliver the will of the people.


Parliament's role is not to deliver the will of the people. It's to deliver what is best for the country. In many cases this goes against the will of the people for a wide variety of reasons including the need to protect of citizens, a lack of understanding amongst the general public on issues or simply the role of politicians being to lead public opinion rather than follow it (e.g. liberalisation of laws on homosexuality).

The danger of the 'will of the people' concept is that it also enables concepts like 'enemies of the people', which the Mail/Express/Telegraph have jumped on over the last year or two.


Surely that view is nul-and-void when Parliament ask peoples opinion through a referendum? Let's not forget that parliament has voted to trigger article 50.

I do accept that nothing has been decided on the type of Brexit and that is for the government, supported by parliament, to decide.


If the referendum had been legally binding. But it wasn't and given the untruthful nature of the campaign and the relatively small margin of victory, I think Parliamentarians would be well within their rights to discard the result and to try and explain to the public the reasons why.

In general I think referendums are a bad idea, particularly in countries where the media landscape is heavily distorted by oligarchs with their own agendas. As Clement Attlee said (and Margaret Thatcher repeated), referendums are a device of dictators and demagogues


Forget the referendum if you like - did parliament vote to trigger article 50?


Fanatic
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Re: [007Dale] EU Withdrawal Negotiations or Reply Privately


In Reply To
Forget the referendum if you like - did parliament vote to trigger article 50?


Yes. But they could also potentially vote to overturn that decision.


007Dale
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Re: [Fanatic] EU Withdrawal Negotiations or Reply Privately


In Reply To

In Reply To
Forget the referendum if you like - did parliament vote to trigger article 50?


Yes. But they could also potentially vote to overturn that decision.[/reply
so long as we all agree that parliament is sovereign and our sovereign parliament voted to leave the EU and not just 52% that bothered to vote in the referendum; but the elected politicians that represent 100% of the population (by virtue of a majority vote in parliament)


PaulC
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Re: [007Dale] EU Withdrawal Negotiations or Reply Privately


In Reply To
Forget the referendum if you like - did parliament vote to trigger article 50?


Yes, but Article 50 is merely a notice of intent to leave the EU. Parliament could vote to rescind it tomorrow.


(This post was edited by PaulC on Dec 14, 2017, 10:33 PM)


Part-Timer
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Re: [007Dale] EU Withdrawal Negotiations or Reply Privately


In Reply To
Surely that view is nul-and-void when Parliament ask peoples opinion through a referendum? Let's not forget that parliament has voted to trigger article 50.

Whilst I can accept the occasional referendum on constitutional issues such as electoral reform or abolishing the monarchy (if only), to hold a simple yes/no referendum on issue which has such an enormous impact across so many areas of policy was a nonsense. Parties should lay out their plan for managing the country at a general election, attempt to persuade electors that theirs is the best and then get on with implementing it. Instead the Tories are flying by the seat of their pants attempting to run the country while constrained by an underlying policy which has been foisted upon them and with which most of them fundamentally disagreed.

The decision to call a referendum on this issue was wrong. It was taken by David Cameron in a desperate attempt to prevent his party from splitting by passing the buck to the electorate. That worked well didn't it?


jon b
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Re: [Part-Timer] EU Withdrawal Negotiations or Reply Privately

I doubt whether we'll have another Referendum on the EU. Conservative activists don't want to stay in it and Corbyn and co are happy to leave.

Rather than the argument being between Leave or Remain, I think the real battle will probably be the Tories trying to persuade the electorate that they've reached a good deal with the EU and Labour rubbishing it and saying they could have achieved a far better exit deal.

But looking on the bright side we've at least another fifteen months of fascinating discussions of Brexit, Brexit, Brexit, Brexit, Brexit, Brexit, Brexit..............


(This post was edited by jon b on Jan 8, 2018, 7:02 PM)


Ronsdog
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Re: [jon b] EU Withdrawal Negotiations or Reply Privately

 
...and finally the EU have accepted that fact too.

They are already counting the cost.....

http://www.bbc.co.uk/...orld-europe-42609057

Will they be so bloody minded regarding a trade deal, now that the reality of the cost of our leaving occupies their minds?

The EUs Net contributors.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/...pe/8036097.stm#start


(This post was edited by Ronsdog on Jan 9, 2018, 1:31 AM)


007Dale
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Re: [Ronsdog] EU Withdrawal Negotiations or Reply Privately


In Reply To
...and finally the EU have accepted that fact too.

They are already counting the cost.....

http://www.bbc.co.uk/...orld-europe-42609057

Will they be so bloody minded regarding a trade deal, now that the reality of the cost of our leaving occupies their minds?

The EUs Net contributors.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/...pe/8036097.stm#start


The figures highlight why the mood in the Netherlands is heading more Euro-Sceptic. Can't think they'll be too happy at increasing net contributions when we leave.


jrev61
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Re: [Ronsdog] EU Withdrawal Negotiations or Reply Privately


In Reply To
...and finally the EU have accepted that fact too.

They are already counting the cost.....

http://www.bbc.co.uk/...orld-europe-42609057

Will they be so bloody minded regarding a trade deal, now that the reality of the cost of our leaving occupies their minds?

The EUs Net contributors.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/...pe/8036097.stm#start


Norway contributes more to the EU than most of the member states, this is for a trade deal rather than membership. No doubt we will have to do the same and will receive no benefits other than trade agreements.



jrev61


007Dale
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Re: [jrev61] EU Withdrawal Negotiations or Reply Privately


In Reply To

In Reply To
...and finally the EU have accepted that fact too.

They are already counting the cost.....

http://www.bbc.co.uk/...orld-europe-42609057

Will they be so bloody minded regarding a trade deal, now that the reality of the cost of our leaving occupies their minds?

The EUs Net contributors.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/...pe/8036097.stm#start


Norway contributes more to the EU than most of the member states, this is for a trade deal rather than membership. No doubt we will have to do the same and will receive no benefits other than trade agreements.


How much does Canada pay?


(This post was edited by 007Dale on Jan 9, 2018, 11:00 AM)


mip
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Re: [Ronsdog] EU Withdrawal Negotiations or Reply Privately


In Reply To
...and finally the EU have accepted that fact too.

They are already counting the cost.....

http://www.bbc.co.uk/...orld-europe-42609057

Will they be so bloody minded regarding a trade deal, now that the reality of the cost of our leaving occupies their minds?

The EUs Net contributors.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/...pe/8036097.stm#start


Try clicking the "% of income" button... perhaps the UK isn't as hard done by as some people like to present it. As always numbers can be presented in different ways to suit different views.

And no trade deal will be bad news for everyone in EU. But it will be even worse news for everyone in the UK. So the negotiating position of David Davis is not really very good. But rather than admitting that, of course a number of British media make it out as "big bad EU bullying poor UK".


garethwrexy
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Re: [jon b] EU Withdrawal Negotiations or Reply Privately

Expect it leavers we leaving the eu



wrexham fc fa trophy winners 2013 !


jon b
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Re: [007Dale] EU Withdrawal Negotiations or Reply Privately


In Reply To

In Reply To
...and finally the EU have accepted that fact too.

They are already counting the cost.....

http://www.bbc.co.uk/...orld-europe-42609057

Will they be so bloody minded regarding a trade deal, now that the reality of the cost of our leaving occupies their minds?

The EUs Net contributors.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/...pe/8036097.stm#start


The figures highlight why the mood in the Netherlands is heading more Euro-Sceptic. Can't think they'll be too happy at increasing net contributions when we leave.


I doubt whether an increase in the Netherlands, and other nations, net contribution will make them more favourably inclined to the UK in the Brexit negotiations.

Meanwhile Davis & Hammond are off to Germany to try to frighten them with talk of dire economic consequences for Europe if we don't get a good trade deal, especially if it restricts UK financial services access to the EU.

I suppose you could describe it as a "Project Fear".


007Dale
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Re: [jon b] EU Withdrawal Negotiations or Reply Privately

Interesting comments from Dave Cameron today where he admits that Brexit is not as bad as they thought.

Given the doomsday scenario he and George Osborne peddled during the referendum campaign, it's hardly surprising.


jrev61
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Re: [007Dale] EU Withdrawal Negotiations or Reply Privately

Cameron was described as 'the worst Prime Minister since Lord North' by Jeremy Paxman on Room 101.
Not sure why anyone would listen to that idiot, he is a totally discredited ex-politician.



jrev61


Isaac
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Re: [jrev61] EU Withdrawal Negotiations or Reply Privately


In Reply To
Cameron was described as 'the worst Prime Minister since Lord North' by Jeremy Paxman on Room 101.
Not sure why anyone would listen to that idiot, he is a totally discredited ex-politician.


And were you saying that when Cameron was busy pedalling project fear?


PaulC
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Re: [007Dale] EU Withdrawal Negotiations or Reply Privately


In Reply To
Interesting comments from Dave Cameron today where he admits that Brexit is not as bad as they thought. .


Brexit hasn't happened yet.


007Dale
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Re: [PaulC] EU Withdrawal Negotiations or Reply Privately


In Reply To

In Reply To
Interesting comments from Dave Cameron today where he admits that Brexit is not as bad as they thought. .


Brexit hasn't happened yet.


According to the remain campaign, these impacts would happen the day after the Brexit vote, not Brexit itself, including an emergency budget with tax increases.

Let's face it,nobody believed them, hence why the vote went leave. Lots of talk of the £350m number on the Brexit battle bus, but the remain camps lies and deceit ultimately cost them and are now proven as such.


PaulC
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Re: [007Dale] EU Withdrawal Negotiations or Reply Privately


In Reply To

In Reply To

In Reply To
Interesting comments from Dave Cameron today where he admits that Brexit is not as bad as they thought. .


Brexit hasn't happened yet.


According to the remain campaign, these impacts would happen the day after the Brexit vote, not Brexit itself, including an emergency budget with tax increases.

Let's face it,nobody believed them, hence why the vote went leave. Lots of talk of the £350m number on the Brexit battle bus, but the remain camps lies and deceit ultimately cost them and are now proven as such.


LOL! Remain lies worse than Leave lies.

Remove your blinkers.


jrev61
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Re: [Isaac] EU Withdrawal Negotiations or Reply Privately


In Reply To

In Reply To
Cameron was described as 'the worst Prime Minister since Lord North' by Jeremy Paxman on Room 101.
Not sure why anyone would listen to that idiot, he is a totally discredited ex-politician.


And were you saying that when Cameron was busy pedalling project fear?


As a Labour voter I have never liked Cameron so I wasn't happy with him and Osborne playing such a major role in the referendum campaign, due to Corbyn's refusal to get involved. The only time I have ever seen anything approaching sincerity from Cameron was at Jo Cox's funeral. He is a weak man who allowed himself to be bullied by Farage,



jrev61


Isaac
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Re: [PaulC] EU Withdrawal Negotiations or Reply Privately


In Reply To

In Reply To

In Reply To

In Reply To
Interesting comments from Dave Cameron today where he admits that Brexit is not as bad as they thought. .


Brexit hasn't happened yet.


According to the remain campaign, these impacts would happen the day after the Brexit vote, not Brexit itself, including an emergency budget with tax increases.

Let's face it,nobody believed them, hence why the vote went leave. Lots of talk of the £350m number on the Brexit battle bus, but the remain camps lies and deceit ultimately cost them and are now proven as such.


LOL! Remain lies worse than Leave lies.

Remove your blinkers.


Oh the irony!

So when exactly is all this end of the world stuff spouted by project fear going to happen? Even 'call me Dave' has pretty much conceded that it isn't!


PaulC
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Re: [Isaac] EU Withdrawal Negotiations or Reply Privately


In Reply To

In Reply To

In Reply To

In Reply To

In Reply To
Interesting comments from Dave Cameron today where he admits that Brexit is not as bad as they thought. .


Brexit hasn't happened yet.


According to the remain campaign, these impacts would happen the day after the Brexit vote, not Brexit itself, including an emergency budget with tax increases.

Let's face it,nobody believed them, hence why the vote went leave. Lots of talk of the £350m number on the Brexit battle bus, but the remain camps lies and deceit ultimately cost them and are now proven as such.


LOL! Remain lies worse than Leave lies.

Remove your blinkers.


Oh the irony!

So when exactly is all this end of the world stuff spouted by project fear going to happen? Even 'call me Dave' has pretty much conceded that it isn't!

All Dave has said is thus far it isn’t quite as bad as he thought it might be. Rabid Brexiteers are trying to convince themselves thst means it’s good.

I’d have thought a good time to measure the effect on the UK of leaving the EU would be after the UK leaves the EU.

Wouldn’t you?


Isaac
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Re: [PaulC] EU Withdrawal Negotiations or Reply Privately


In Reply To

In Reply To

In Reply To

In Reply To

In Reply To

In Reply To
Interesting comments from Dave Cameron today where he admits that Brexit is not as bad as they thought. .


Brexit hasn't happened yet.


According to the remain campaign, these impacts would happen the day after the Brexit vote, not Brexit itself, including an emergency budget with tax increases.

Let's face it,nobody believed them, hence why the vote went leave. Lots of talk of the £350m number on the Brexit battle bus, but the remain camps lies and deceit ultimately cost them and are now proven as such.


LOL! Remain lies worse than Leave lies.

Remove your blinkers.


Oh the irony!

So when exactly is all this end of the world stuff spouted by project fear going to happen? Even 'call me Dave' has pretty much conceded that it isn't!

All Dave has said is thus far it isn’t quite as bad as he thought it might be. Rabid Brexiteers are trying to convince themselves thst means it’s good.

I’d have thought a good time to measure the effect on the UK of leaving the EU would be after the UK leaves the EU.

Wouldn’t you?


Yes I would agree on that but rabid remoaners were predicting the end of the world as soon as the vote was counted but 18 months later there is no sign of it.


007Dale
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Re: [Isaac] EU Withdrawal Negotiations or Reply Privately

It's also quite amusing that the Scottish remoaners think the solution to leaving the EU is to leave the UK.

Forgetting, of course, that 61% of Scottish exports are to the rest of the UK and only 16% of exports go the EU!


PaulC
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Re: [007Dale] EU Withdrawal Negotiations or Reply Privately


In Reply To
It's also quite amusing that the Scottish remoaners think the solution to leaving the EU is to leave the UK.

Forgetting, of course, that 61% of Scottish exports are to the rest of the UK and only 16% of exports go the EU!


So you think there’ll be vastly reduced trade with EU countries when we turn our back on them.


PaulC
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Re: [007Dale] EU Withdrawal Negotiations or Reply Privately

Buzzfeed has been leaked the government's latest internal Brexit impact analysis. It shows the UK being worse off under every modelled scenario

No wonder the Government of the United Kingdom wants to keep it secret from the people of the United Kingdom.

https://www.buzzfeed.com/...qsD8w35N0#.obZY1kAgV

But we'll have got our country back, innit.


Tykeoldboy
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Re: [PaulC] EU Withdrawal Negotiations or Reply Privately

Parliamentary voting on the latest Brexxit proposals have the Chavs to the right, 390 votes and Doubters to the left, 130 votes. Carillion have been asked for a quote to fill in the Channel Tunnel.


pitch 63
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Re: [Tykeoldboy] EU Withdrawal Negotiations or Reply Privately

Carillion have been asked for a quote to fill in the Channel Tunnel.


It was my understanding that Carillion hadn't been asked to fill the Channel Tunnel in, but to move it to the Irish Sea.


Ronsdog
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Re: [PaulC] EU Withdrawal Negotiations or Reply Privately


In Reply To
Buzzfeed has been leaked the government's latest internal Brexit impact analysis. It shows the UK being worse off under every modelled scenario

No wonder the Government of the United Kingdom wants to keep it secret from the people of the United Kingdom.

https://www.buzzfeed.com/...qsD8w35N0#.obZY1kAgV

But we'll have got our country back, innit.



In view of the fact that since the Brexit vote, we haven't seen the economy falling off a cliff, as was predicted by the Remainers I contend that the only purpose of economic forecasts is to make astrology look respectable.......Tongue


windydcfc
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Re: [Ronsdog] EU Withdrawal Negotiations or Reply Privately

What we are seeing, is the self destruction of the Tory Party though. Which will hopefully bring on a great Corbyn led left wing government.


Towlawtom
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Re: [windydcfc] EU Withdrawal Negotiations or Reply Privately

Im waiting to hear from anyone of one current British Law that is better than a European law. If you cant come up with anything, maybe one British Law that is going to better than a European law when we Leave.



I need to have the last word, as it always looks as if I am right !


leohoenig
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Re: [Ronsdog] EU Withdrawal Negotiations or Reply Privately


In Reply To

In Reply To
Buzzfeed has been leaked the government's latest internal Brexit impact analysis. It shows the UK being worse off under every modelled scenario

No wonder the Government of the United Kingdom wants to keep it secret from the people of the United Kingdom.

https://www.buzzfeed.com/...qsD8w35N0#.obZY1kAgV

But we'll have got our country back, innit.



In view of the fact that since the Brexit vote, we haven't seen the economy falling off a cliff, as was predicted by the Remainers I contend that the only purpose of economic forecasts is to make astrology look respectable.......Tongue


There is no reason to keep this a secret, it basically concurs with what the government were saying before hand. [I have not read buzzfeed, but I am guessing it may be a little less bleak by comparison]

The fact is that those that voted to leave did so despite these reports (or believing there would be a sudden windfall that would be pumped into the NHS)



Fat AND Pompous.
The proof that you can have too much of a good thing
Now blogging at http://www.leohoenig.com



PaulC
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Re: [Ronsdog] EU Withdrawal Negotiations or Reply Privately


In Reply To


In view of the fact that since the Brexit vote, we haven't seen the economy falling off a cliff, as was predicted by the Remainers I contend that the only purpose of economic forecasts is to make astrology look respectable.......Tongue


World growth rate 4%

UK growth rate 1%, with interest rates as low as they have ever been.


steveking
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Jan 31, 2018, 10:13 AM

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Re: [PaulC] EU Withdrawal Negotiations or Reply Privately


In Reply To

In Reply To


In view of the fact that since the Brexit vote, we haven't seen the economy falling off a cliff, as was predicted by the Remainers I contend that the only purpose of economic forecasts is to make astrology look respectable.......Tongue


World growth rate 4%

UK growth rate 1%, with interest rates as low as they have ever been.

Exactly. We are getting worse off in relation to others. I fear for my children and grandchildren.


007Dale
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Re: [steveking] EU Withdrawal Negotiations or Reply Privately


In Reply To

In Reply To

In Reply To


In view of the fact that since the Brexit vote, we haven't seen the economy falling off a cliff, as was predicted by the Remainers I contend that the only purpose of economic forecasts is to make astrology look respectable.......Tongue


World growth rate 4%

UK growth rate 1%, with interest rates as low as they have ever been.

Exactly. We are getting worse off in relation to others. I fear for my children and grandchildren.


Nonsense.

It's going to be great for our children, we'll be a global trading nation and not stuck in bureaucratic nightmare of the EU.

Most people who voted Brexit did so in the knowledge we'd have a few rocky years leading to Brexit, they are no where near as bad as predicted, so far.

(Insert Moans and cries of 'we haven't left yet')

Indeed many remain voters I have spoken with, liked the idea of leaving but we're frightened of the short-term consequences and are now mostly resolved to leaving the EU.

Let's not do ourselves down, the United Kingdom is a great nation, with a great long-term future. I voted with my children in mind, a great global trading nation is surely something to create fantastic opportunities. Hold your nerve and enjoy the rewards!


(This post was edited by 007Dale on Feb 1, 2018, 8:51 AM)


PaulC
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Re: [007Dale] EU Withdrawal Negotiations or Reply Privately


In Reply To

It's going to be great for our children, we'll be a global trading nation and not stuck in bureaucratic nightmare of the EU


....
Let's not do ourselves down, the United Kingdom is a great nation, with a great long-term future. I voted with my children in mind, a great global trading nation is surely something to create fantastic opportunities. Hold your nerve and enjoy the rewards!


I feel like I've landed in a copy of the Daily Mail.


steveking
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Feb 1, 2018, 10:17 AM

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Re: [PaulC] EU Withdrawal Negotiations or Reply Privately

The argument alluded to by Paul was that whilst the UK economy has grown it has done so by being dragged along by the global economy. So we are currently getting relatively poorer.

I accept that none of us knows what will happen in the long run but the current evidence is not encouraging. If you're optimistic, which I try to be, then you can say that Britain has been at or near the top of the pile for centuries and will surely have the residual nous to stay there under any circumstances. Maybe that will happen, I like to think so, but we haven't reached the corner yet let alone started to turn it. People seem to think we are over the effects of 2008 yet the defence cuts (as an example) imposed in the wake of the financial collapse are not being reversed, instead the government is talking about yet more cuts. If a Tory government is saying that then things can't be too good.

Maybe my great grand children will have a brighter future but I remain concerned about those of preceding generations.

As an aside may I say that talk of a "bureaucratic nightmare" falls in the same category as "I want my country back". Neither of these expressions has any resonance with me or my experience of the EU. Is the new UK to be free of form filling perhaps?


jrev61
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Feb 1, 2018, 10:34 AM

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Re: [steveking] EU Withdrawal Negotiations or Reply Privately

Bureaucracy is a part of Western society not a unique feature of the EU. I personally have never had to fill in a form because of the EU.
Before the referendum I heard several businessmen saying they were going to vote leave, because of all the forms they have to fill in to export or import from the EU. It didn't occur to them that the same forms will still have to be filled in when we leave the EU. In fact there maybe extra forms to fill in as they will be trading with the EU from a non-EU country.



jrev61


Isaac
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Feb 1, 2018, 1:57 PM

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Re: [PaulC] EU Withdrawal Negotiations or Reply Privately


In Reply To

In Reply To

It's going to be great for our children, we'll be a global trading nation and not stuck in bureaucratic nightmare of the EU


....
Let's not do ourselves down, the United Kingdom is a great nation, with a great long-term future. I voted with my children in mind, a great global trading nation is surely something to create fantastic opportunities. Hold your nerve and enjoy the rewards!


I feel like I've landed in a copy of the Daily Mail.


Nothing to do with the mail, more to do with accepting the democratic outcome and moving on, seems even Jeremy Corbyn has managed to do that.

And not so long ago you were saying this:

I’d have thought a good time to measure the effect on the UK of leaving the EU would be after the UK leaves the EU.

Wouldn’t you?


(This post was edited by Isaac on Feb 1, 2018, 1:59 PM)


PaulC
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Feb 1, 2018, 4:07 PM

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Re: [Isaac] EU Withdrawal Negotiations or Reply Privately

Yes indeed, if we are to leave the EU we should measure the effect of Brexit after we have left.

It would be far better not to leave though - as the majority of the electorate now finally recognises.


Isaac
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Feb 1, 2018, 4:11 PM

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Re: [PaulC] EU Withdrawal Negotiations or Reply Privately


In Reply To
Yes indeed, if we are to leave the EU we should measure the effect of Brexit after we have left.

It would be far better not to leave though - as the majority of the electorate now finally recognises.


Really? That's a rather sweeping and unsubstantiated statement if ever there was one.


PaulC
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Feb 1, 2018, 4:53 PM

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Re: [Isaac] EU Withdrawal Negotiations or Reply Privately


In Reply To

In Reply To
Yes indeed, if we are to leave the EU we should measure the effect of Brexit after we have left.

It would be far better not to leave though - as the majority of the electorate now finally recognises.


Really? That's a rather sweeping and unsubstantiated statement if ever there was one.


"Britons now back Remain over Leave by 10 points"

http://www.independent.co.uk/...ve-bmg-a8114406.html


Isaac
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Feb 1, 2018, 11:07 PM

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Re: [PaulC] EU Withdrawal Negotiations or Reply Privately


In Reply To

In Reply To

In Reply To
Yes indeed, if we are to leave the EU we should measure the effect of Brexit after we have left.

It would be far better not to leave though - as the majority of the electorate now finally recognises.


Really? That's a rather sweeping and unsubstantiated statement if ever there was one.


"Britons now back Remain over Leave by 10 points"

http://www.independent.co.uk/...ve-bmg-a8114406.html


And how were those figures arrived at? I mean nobody has asked me how I'd vote if there were another referendum. Just more clutching at straws.


PaulC
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Feb 1, 2018, 11:22 PM

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Re: [Isaac] EU Withdrawal Negotiations or Reply Privately


In Reply To

In Reply To

In Reply To

In Reply To
Yes indeed, if we are to leave the EU we should measure the effect of Brexit after we have left.

It would be far better not to leave though - as the majority of the electorate now finally recognises.


Really? That's a rather sweeping and unsubstantiated statement if ever there was one.


"Britons now back Remain over Leave by 10 points"

http://www.independent.co.uk/...ve-bmg-a8114406.html


And how were those figures arrived at? I mean nobody has asked me how I'd vote if there were another referendum. Just more clutching at straws.


Oh dear.

Perhaps you should read up on sampling techniques.

But hey, we had a referendum in 2016, before we knew what the outcome of Brexit would be, surely you agree that 3 years on, after we know what the deal is, we should be sure that electorate still wants to pull the plug.

If Britain as a nation comes to its senses then Britain as a nation should be able to stop this disastrous nonsense.


Isaac
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Feb 2, 2018, 9:01 AM

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Re: [PaulC] EU Withdrawal Negotiations or Reply Privately


In Reply To

In Reply To

In Reply To

In Reply To

In Reply To
Yes indeed, if we are to leave the EU we should measure the effect of Brexit after we have left.

It would be far better not to leave though - as the majority of the electorate now finally recognises.


Really? That's a rather sweeping and unsubstantiated statement if ever there was one.


"Britons now back Remain over Leave by 10 points"

http://www.independent.co.uk/...ve-bmg-a8114406.html


And how were those figures arrived at? I mean nobody has asked me how I'd vote if there were another referendum. Just more clutching at straws.


Oh dear.

Perhaps you should read up on sampling techniques.

But hey, we had a referendum in 2016, before we knew what the outcome of Brexit would be, surely you agree that 3 years on, after we know what the deal is, we should be sure that electorate still wants to pull the plug.

If Britain as a nation comes to its senses then Britain as a nation should be able to stop this disastrous nonsense.


Funny but nobody was willing or able to predict the outcome of the referendum, it was too tight to call. But now the independent can conclusively predict how a second referendum would pan out? Absolute poppycock, of course they know a second referendum isn't going to happen so there's no chance of them ever being proved wrong.


PaulC
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Feb 2, 2018, 9:17 AM

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Re: [Isaac] EU Withdrawal Negotiations or Reply Privately


In Reply To

In Reply To

In Reply To

In Reply To

In Reply To

In Reply To
Yes indeed, if we are to leave the EU we should measure the effect of Brexit after we have left.

It would be far better not to leave though - as the majority of the electorate now finally recognises.


Really? That's a rather sweeping and unsubstantiated statement if ever there was one.


"Britons now back Remain over Leave by 10 points"

http://www.independent.co.uk/...ve-bmg-a8114406.html


And how were those figures arrived at? I mean nobody has asked me how I'd vote if there were another referendum. Just more clutching at straws.


Oh dear.

Perhaps you should read up on sampling techniques.

But hey, we had a referendum in 2016, before we knew what the outcome of Brexit would be, surely you agree that 3 years on, after we know what the deal is, we should be sure that electorate still wants to pull the plug.

If Britain as a nation comes to its senses then Britain as a nation should be able to stop this disastrous nonsense.


Funny but nobody was willing or able to predict the outcome of the referendum, it was too tight to call. But now the independent can conclusively predict how a second referendum would pan out? Absolute poppycock, of course they know a second referendum isn't going to happen so there's no chance of them ever being proved wrong.


Yes there's only one way of knowing conclusively what the people think of the deal that will be served up. A referendum.

That's why Brexiteers like you don't want one. They fear the British people have come to their senses, as evidenced by recent polls.


(This post was edited by PaulC on Feb 2, 2018, 10:19 AM)


Isaac
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Feb 2, 2018, 11:34 AM

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Re: [PaulC] EU Withdrawal Negotiations or Reply Privately


In Reply To

In Reply To

In Reply To

In Reply To

In Reply To

In Reply To

In Reply To
Yes indeed, if we are to leave the EU we should measure the effect of Brexit after we have left.

It would be far better not to leave though - as the majority of the electorate now finally recognises.


Really? That's a rather sweeping and unsubstantiated statement if ever there was one.


"Britons now back Remain over Leave by 10 points"

http://www.independent.co.uk/...ve-bmg-a8114406.html


And how were those figures arrived at? I mean nobody has asked me how I'd vote if there were another referendum. Just more clutching at straws.


Oh dear.

Perhaps you should read up on sampling techniques.

But hey, we had a referendum in 2016, before we knew what the outcome of Brexit would be, surely you agree that 3 years on, after we know what the deal is, we should be sure that electorate still wants to pull the plug.

If Britain as a nation comes to its senses then Britain as a nation should be able to stop this disastrous nonsense.


Funny but nobody was willing or able to predict the outcome of the referendum, it was too tight to call. But now the independent can conclusively predict how a second referendum would pan out? Absolute poppycock, of course they know a second referendum isn't going to happen so there's no chance of them ever being proved wrong.


Yes there's only one way of knowing conclusively what the people think of the deal that will be served up. A referendum.

That's why Brexiteers like you don't want one. They fear the British people have come to their senses, as evidenced by recent polls.


This is hilarious, you can't keep having reruns until you get the outcome that you want.


Part-Timer
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Feb 2, 2018, 2:37 PM

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Re: [Isaac] EU Withdrawal Negotiations or Reply Privately


In Reply To

In Reply To

In Reply To

In Reply To

In Reply To

In Reply To

In Reply To

In Reply To
Yes indeed, if we are to leave the EU we should measure the effect of Brexit after we have left.

It would be far better not to leave though - as the majority of the electorate now finally recognises.


Really? That's a rather sweeping and unsubstantiated statement if ever there was one.


"Britons now back Remain over Leave by 10 points"

http://www.independent.co.uk/...ve-bmg-a8114406.html


And how were those figures arrived at? I mean nobody has asked me how I'd vote if there were another referendum. Just more clutching at straws.


Oh dear.

Perhaps you should read up on sampling techniques.

But hey, we had a referendum in 2016, before we knew what the outcome of Brexit would be, surely you agree that 3 years on, after we know what the deal is, we should be sure that electorate still wants to pull the plug.

If Britain as a nation comes to its senses then Britain as a nation should be able to stop this disastrous nonsense.


Funny but nobody was willing or able to predict the outcome of the referendum, it was too tight to call. But now the independent can conclusively predict how a second referendum would pan out? Absolute poppycock, of course they know a second referendum isn't going to happen so there's no chance of them ever being proved wrong.


Yes there's only one way of knowing conclusively what the people think of the deal that will be served up. A referendum.

That's why Brexiteers like you don't want one. They fear the British people have come to their senses, as evidenced by recent polls.


This is hilarious, you can't keep having reruns until you get the outcome that you want.

That's right. Obviously had the result of the referendum gone the other way we all know that UKIP would just have dissolved the party and never mentioned the matter again. Just like the SNP have done in Scotland when the remainers in the independence referendum won.


PaulC
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Feb 2, 2018, 4:51 PM

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Re: [Isaac] EU Withdrawal Negotiations or Reply Privately


In Reply To

In Reply To

In Reply To

In Reply To

In Reply To

In Reply To

In Reply To

In Reply To
Yes indeed, if we are to leave the EU we should measure the effect of Brexit after we have left.

It would be far better not to leave though - as the majority of the electorate now finally recognises.


Really? That's a rather sweeping and unsubstantiated statement if ever there was one.


"Britons now back Remain over Leave by 10 points"

http://www.independent.co.uk/...ve-bmg-a8114406.html


And how were those figures arrived at? I mean nobody has asked me how I'd vote if there were another referendum. Just more clutching at straws.


Oh dear.

Perhaps you should read up on sampling techniques.

But hey, we had a referendum in 2016, before we knew what the outcome of Brexit would be, surely you agree that 3 years on, after we know what the deal is, we should be sure that electorate still wants to pull the plug.

If Britain as a nation comes to its senses then Britain as a nation should be able to stop this disastrous nonsense.


Funny but nobody was willing or able to predict the outcome of the referendum, it was too tight to call. But now the independent can conclusively predict how a second referendum would pan out? Absolute poppycock, of course they know a second referendum isn't going to happen so there's no chance of them ever being proved wrong.


Yes there's only one way of knowing conclusively what the people think of the deal that will be served up. A referendum.

That's why Brexiteers like you don't want one. They fear the British people have come to their senses, as evidenced by recent polls.


This is hilarious, you can't keep having reruns until you get the outcome that you want.


Brilliant. The electorate is not allowed to change its mind now that it knows what Brexit will really mean.

Laughable.


garethwrexy
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Feb 2, 2018, 6:08 PM

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Re: [PaulC] EU Withdrawal Negotiations or Reply Privately

Polls can alter



wrexham fc fa trophy winners 2013 !


PaulC
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Feb 2, 2018, 7:39 PM

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Re: [garethwrexy] EU Withdrawal Negotiations or Reply Privately


In Reply To
Polls can alter


Yes.

A referendum would be better.


garethwrexy
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Feb 2, 2018, 8:28 PM

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Re: [PaulC] EU Withdrawal Negotiations or Reply Privately

I think leave will get a bigger win



wrexham fc fa trophy winners 2013 !


PaulC
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Feb 2, 2018, 8:32 PM

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Re: [garethwrexy] EU Withdrawal Negotiations or Reply Privately


In Reply To
I think leave will get a bigger win


That’s not what the polls are saying.


(This post was edited by PaulC on Feb 2, 2018, 8:32 PM)


garethwrexy
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Re: [PaulC] EU Withdrawal Negotiations or Reply Privately

It's what I believe will happen



wrexham fc fa trophy winners 2013 !


Isaac
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Feb 2, 2018, 11:13 PM

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Re: [PaulC] EU Withdrawal Negotiations or Reply Privately


In Reply To

In Reply To

In Reply To

In Reply To

In Reply To

In Reply To

In Reply To

In Reply To

In Reply To
Yes indeed, if we are to leave the EU we should measure the effect of Brexit after we have left.

It would be far better not to leave though - as the majority of the electorate now finally recognises.


Really? That's a rather sweeping and unsubstantiated statement if ever there was one.


"Britons now back Remain over Leave by 10 points"

http://www.independent.co.uk/...ve-bmg-a8114406.html


And how were those figures arrived at? I mean nobody has asked me how I'd vote if there were another referendum. Just more clutching at straws.


Oh dear.

Perhaps you should read up on sampling techniques.

But hey, we had a referendum in 2016, before we knew what the outcome of Brexit would be, surely you agree that 3 years on, after we know what the deal is, we should be sure that electorate still wants to pull the plug.

If Britain as a nation comes to its senses then Britain as a nation should be able to stop this disastrous nonsense.


Funny but nobody was willing or able to predict the outcome of the referendum, it was too tight to call. But now the independent can conclusively predict how a second referendum would pan out? Absolute poppycock, of course they know a second referendum isn't going to happen so there's no chance of them ever being proved wrong.


Yes there's only one way of knowing conclusively what the people think of the deal that will be served up. A referendum.

That's why Brexiteers like you don't want one. They fear the British people have come to their senses, as evidenced by recent polls.


This is hilarious, you can't keep having reruns until you get the outcome that you want.


Brilliant. The electorate is not allowed to change its mind now that it knows what Brexit will really mean.

Laughable.


There is no evidence that anybody has changed their minds, it's just wishful thinking on your part only backed up by some ludicrous poll in the independent. Yes it is laughable.


leohoenig
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Re: [Isaac] EU Withdrawal Negotiations or Reply Privately

Oh yes it has
Oh no it hasn't

Is this a debate or a pantomineSmile



Fat AND Pompous.
The proof that you can have too much of a good thing
Now blogging at http://www.leohoenig.com



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Re: [Isaac] EU Withdrawal Negotiations or Reply Privately


In Reply To
There is no evidence that anybody has changed their minds, it's just wishful thinking on your part only backed up by some ludicrous poll in the independent. Yes it is laughable.


In the wacky world of the blind Brexiteers, opinion polling by independent organisations is not evidence!

LOL!

The Independent reported the most recent poll. So did the Torygraph. Even that pitiful excuse doesn't work, Isaac.


(This post was edited by PaulC on Feb 3, 2018, 8:56 AM)


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Re: [leohoenig] EU Withdrawal Negotiations or Reply Privately

Bit of both



wrexham fc fa trophy winners 2013 !


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Re: [Isaac] EU Withdrawal Negotiations or Reply Privately

An absolutely devastating analysis of Brexit and May's government by Matthew Parris in today's Times.

https://www.dropbox.com/...xowk/parris.jpg?dl=0


Matty
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Re: [PaulC] EU Withdrawal Negotiations or Reply Privately

Oh well been reeled in by you PaulC, I voted leave after very much thought and research, not a mantra preached to me at uni, late 80's even more left wing now, I can give rock solid examples of how's free speech was is shut down by you and your accolytes.
You are quoting, as gospel, the Independent poll, ten many more at least pointing in the opposite direction, that given the Mafiosi style threats many remainers have been polled and would vote leave, don't have a source but Google the bugger, half my life has been doing such surveys, I know bias when I see it.
Do you not see the Visegaard countries are fed up, Macron admitted France would vote to leave, Austria, Holland and Italy, more to follow, we are fed up of your brainwashed hogwash from unelected people in Brussels, we never voted in for this anyway. Get your uniform on and join the new EU army and suppress anything that does n't fit your Marxist views, see you in a Gulag sometime


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Re: [Matty] EU Withdrawal Negotiations or Reply Privately


In Reply To
Oh well been reeled in by you PaulC, I voted leave after very much thought and research, not a mantra preached to me at uni, late 80's even more left wing now, I can give rock solid examples of how's free speech was is shut down by you and your accolytes.


I'm shutting down free speech? Really? What I'm doing is exposing the vacuity of the Brexiteers and their arguments. I'm all for free speech - I'm all for the people of Britain having their say on the Brexit deal. It's people like you and your acolytes who are scared of free speech. If you had the least confidence in your case you would welcome a second referendum. You don't because you are afraid the British people have sussed the emptiness of the Brexit case and are aware of the damage Brexit will do to this country ... as evidenced by those your really are scared of ... the experts.



In Reply To
You are quoting, as gospel, the Independent poll, ten many more at least pointing in the opposite direction, that given the Mafiosi style threats many remainers have been polled and would vote leave, don't have a source but Google the bugger, half my life has been doing such surveys, I know bias when I see it.


LOL! The usual Brexiteer tactic. Assertion without a scintilla of evidence. I bet you were one of those who fell for the £350 million for the NHS lie. Brexit really does appeal to the hard of thinking.

By the way it wasn't a "Independent" poll. It was a Yougov poll reported by various newspapers including the Brexit-supporting Torygraph. Even the newspaper of choice of Brexiteers, the Daily mail, probably reported it.

Unlike you and your acolytes I will actually provide some facts. Best hide behind the sofa, Matty, we all know how facts frighten Brexiteers.


"If there was a referendum on Britain’s membership of the EU, how would you vote?"

30 Jun Yougov Leave 48% Remain 52%
24 Jul Yougov Leave 48% Remain 52%
24 Aug Yougov Leave 49% Remain 51%
24 Oct Yougov Leave 48% Remain 52%
17 Nov Yougov Leave 50% Remain 50%
28 Jan Yougov Leave 48% Remain 52%


"If there was another referendum on Britain’s membership of the EU, how would you vote?"
21 Jun Panelbase Leave 52% Remain 48%
18 AUg Opinium Leave 47% Remain 53%
15 Sep Opinium Leave 50% remain 52%
22 Sep Opinium Leave 49% Remain 51%
20 Oct Opinium Leave 49% Remain 51%
10 Dec ICM Leave 48% remain 52%
11 Jan ComRes Leave 46% Remain 54%
19 Jan ComRes Leave 49% Remain 51%

In hindsight, do you think Britain was right or wrong to vote to leave the EU?
31 Aug Yougov Right 50% Wrong 50%
24 Sep Yougov Right 49% Wrong 51%
11 Oct yougov Right 47% Wrong 53%
19 Oct Yougov Right 48% Wrong 52%
8 Nov Yougov right 48% Wrong 52%
5 Dec Yougov Right 48% Wrong 52%
11 Dec Yougov Right 49% Wromg 51%
20 Dec youigov Right 48% Wrong 52%
8 Jan Yougov Right 48% Wrong 52%
17 Jan Yougov Right 51% Wrong 49%
29 Jan Yougov Right 47% Wrong 53%

"Should the United Kingdom remain a member of the European Union, or leave the European Union?"

30 Jun Survation Leave 46% Remain 54%
14 Jul BMG Leave 49% Remain 51%
11 Aug BMG Leave 49% Remain 51%
15 Sep BMG Leave 48% Remain 52%
23 Sep BMG Leave 51% Remain 49%
5 Oct Survation Leave 48% remain 52%
20 Oct BMG Leave 48% Remain 52%
17 Nov BMG Leave 50% Remain 50%
1 Dec Survation Leave 48% Remain 52%
8 Dec BMG Leave 454% Remain 55%

Source: https://whatukthinks.org/eu/opinion-polls/uk-poll-results/

35 polls in the last few months. 29 a Remain majority, 3 50/50, 3 a Leave majority. The Leave record is worse than West Brom's.

So where are these "ten many more at least pointing in the opposite direction" ? LOL!!

You Brexiteers just spout your own nonsense in the hope no one will check the lies within and will actually fall for them. What's worse, you probably actually believe your own nonsense.

PS I love the way you equate a desire to remain in the EU with Marxism. It really does illustrate the mentality of so many right wing Brexiteers.


(This post was edited by PaulC on Feb 4, 2018, 12:52 PM)


Matty
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Re: [PaulC] EU Withdrawal Negotiations or Reply Privately

PaulC you make a compelling argument and I would not criticise your passion, your stats I will, how many people who work for papers, the BBC, the ONS, Civil Service are remainers? Train your brain duck to the think independently for once once for...
I was almost 50/50 on this, the more I hear voices like yours the more resolute I was to vote leave, America voted the way they did despite a mass msm campaign as here and many parts of Europe, fed up of the diatribe and so is rest of Europe too, Cuba or Venezuela for you.
Sorry if that sounds angry, I do respect your point of view, just offering another


Matty
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Re: [Matty] EU Withdrawal Negotiations or Reply Privately

I would love a chat with you PaulC over a few pints, reckon it would be last man standing before we agreed. However I would enjoy it, we don't have to be the same.


Ronsdog
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Re: [PaulC] EU Withdrawal Negotiations or Reply Privately


In Reply To
An absolutely devastating analysis of Brexit and May's government by Matthew Parris in today's Times.

https://www.dropbox.com/...xowk/parris.jpg?dl=0


PaulC reduced to quoting the 'Tory Scum Press' to support his pro Remain views......priceless !! Cool


(This post was edited by Ronsdog on Feb 4, 2018, 1:46 PM)


PaulC
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Re: [Matty] EU Withdrawal Negotiations or Reply Privately


In Reply To
PaulC you make a compelling argument and I would not criticise your passion, your stats I will, how many people who work for papers, the BBC, the ONS, Civil Service are remainers?


I have absolutely no idea. Have you?

Are you suggesting all the polling companies are fiddling the figures too?

I don't suppose you have any evidence, do you?


PaulC
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Re: [Ronsdog] EU Withdrawal Negotiations or Reply Privately


In Reply To

In Reply To
An absolutely devastating analysis of Brexit and May's government by Matthew Parris in today's Times.

https://www.dropbox.com/...xowk/parris.jpg?dl=0


PaulC reduced to quoting the 'Tory Scum Press' to support his pro Remaun views......priceless Wink


Yes, when the Tory scum press sees that Brexit is a catastrophe you know you are in trouble.


(This post was edited by PaulC on Feb 4, 2018, 1:46 PM)


Ronsdog
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Re: [PaulC] EU Withdrawal Negotiations or Reply Privately


In Reply To

In Reply To

In Reply To
An absolutely devastating analysis of Brexit and May's government by Matthew Parris in today's Times.

https://www.dropbox.com/...xowk/parris.jpg?dl=0


PaulC reduced to quoting the 'Tory Scum Press' to support his pro Remaun views......priceless Wink


Yes, when the Tory scum press sees that Brexit is a catastrophe you know you are in trouble.


I just can't stop laughing ...... Classic Wink


Matty
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Re: [PaulC] EU Withdrawal Negotiations or Reply Privately


In Reply To

In Reply To
PaulC you make a compelling argument and I would not criticise your passion, your stats I will, how many people who work for papers, the BBC, the ONS, Civil Service are remainers?


I have absolutely no idea. Have you?

Are you suggesting all the polling companies are fiddling the figures too?

I don't suppose you have any evidence, do you?


Actually yes, it's a job a used to do, ask the the right questions and sometimes you get the right answer! Oh let's have another referendum, we let racists, bigots and thickos vote, sod diplomacy, I know better! Google some other poll other than your left leaning slant, world service, the real world for f,. Sake
I told you I was 50/50 on this, perhaps still am, don't quote stats at a statitiscion. When I can be arsed if indeed I can, and I will, one poll PaulC, do you read the papers or wider news, or does Jeremy feed it directly into your brain? As I said, entitled to your thoughts, but please, have some house and don't just believe what you are told


PaulC
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Re: [Ronsdog] EU Withdrawal Negotiations or Reply Privately


In Reply To

In Reply To

In Reply To

In Reply To
An absolutely devastating analysis of Brexit and May's government by Matthew Parris in today's Times.

https://www.dropbox.com/...xowk/parris.jpg?dl=0


PaulC reduced to quoting the 'Tory Scum Press' to support his pro Remaun views......priceless Wink


Yes, when the Tory scum press sees that Brexit is a catastrophe you know you are in trouble.


I just can't stop laughing ...... Classic Wink


Keep laughing, it's hilarious:

"Isn't it now clear that the government doesn't believe in what it's doing, can't even decide how to do it, hasn't the guts to say so, and is trying to crep forward under cover of fog, wretchedly hoping something with turn up? If Theresa May and her cabinet were a prisoner in the dock, mumbling and stumbling, avoiding our eyes, and under pressure dribbling out banalities, repetitions and evasions, the jury would need about 30 seconds to decide. Guilt is all over the page of this contemptible Tory story.

They know (most of them) that the referendum placed voters in an impossible position. They know that narrowly the voters made a mistake. They can see this is becoming plain.

"They know that our part is now acting against the interests of our country. And nobody has the spine to say so. They speak to us, this sane majority of backbenchers and ministers, like hostages with a gun to their head telling us everything is OK. And the gun is being held by perhaps fewer than 50 zealots ...

[Anthony] Eden lied about Suez and his government concealed its purpose; but he believed in that purpose and believed it to be in the national interest. Blair dissimulated about Iraq and his government used dark arts to clear its path. But he believed in the adventure and believed it to be in the national interest.

Brexit is worse. The means are the same as with Suez and Iraq but half the cabinet and most of the parliamentary party don’t even believe in the ends. I seriously doubt whether Boris Johnson does. A terrified, paralysed prime minister leads a seasick party and doubting government towards she knows not what."
Matthew Parris. A Tory.


PaulC
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Re: [Matty] EU Withdrawal Negotiations or Reply Privately


In Reply To

In Reply To

In Reply To
PaulC you make a compelling argument and I would not criticise your passion, your stats I will, how many people who work for papers, the BBC, the ONS, Civil Service are remainers?


I have absolutely no idea. Have you?

Are you suggesting all the polling companies are fiddling the figures too?

I don't suppose you have any evidence, do you?


Actually yes, it's a job a used to do, ask the the right questions and sometimes you get the right answer! Oh let's have another referendum, we let racists, bigots and thickos vote, sod diplomacy, I know better! Google some other poll other than your left leaning slant, world service, the real world for f,. Sake
I told you I was 50/50 on this, perhaps still am, don't quote stats at a statitiscion. When I can be arsed if indeed I can, and I will, one poll PaulC, do you read the papers or wider news, or does Jeremy feed it directly into your brain? As I said, entitled to your thoughts, but please, have some house and don't just believe what you are told


Oh dear

So you have not one iota of evidence to support anything you are saying. As I thought.

I shall try not to believe any facts in future Matty. In that way I might become a Brexit Believer like you.


Matty
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Re: [PaulC] EU Withdrawal Negotiations or Reply Privately

Ok instead of left leaning media, try oh, the daily mail or breitbart. I get my my news from multiple, often bias sources then way it up in the scientific way I was brought up with, I really can't be arsed to disprove you, the evidence is out there, whether it suits you or me, sometimes they contradict, it's not an exact science.
When you are old enough I will have that drink and explain it more simplistic terms


PaulC
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Re: [Matty] EU Withdrawal Negotiations or Reply Privately


In Reply To
I really can't be arsed to disprove you, the evidence is out there,...


Smile



In Reply To
When you are old enough I will have that drink and explain it more simplistic terms


Jings I've been retired a decade. How old do I have to be?

Sad to say you have explained nothing. You have come up with absolutely nothing of any substance. But then, like a true Believer, facts are of no interest to you.

Just keep being led by the nose by those men of the people - Farage, Rees-Smug, Johnson, Gove, Redwood, Jenkin. You know it's really the interests of the ordinary person that motivates them.

They'll see us all right....

...of course they will.


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Re: [Matty] EU Withdrawal Negotiations or Reply Privately


In Reply To
Ok instead of left leaning media, try oh, the daily mail



BWAHAHAHAHA!

"Wikipedia bans Daily Mail as 'unreliable' source
Online encyclopaedia editors rule out publisher as a reference citing ‘reputation for poor fact checking and sensationalism’"

https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2017/feb/08/wikipedia-bans-daily-mail-as-unreliable-source-for-website

Jings, I'm in discussion with someone who believes what he reads in the Daily Mail!


Matty
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Re: [PaulC] EU Withdrawal Negotiations or Reply Privately

It's been a lovely chat PaulC, I do admire your convictions, but we are so diametrically opposed I don't see the point, but would be happy to chat off line, think you don't listen sometimes, did say I was 50/50, oh could even be a remainer, but given the weight of evidence, source, the E bloody U and you I will admit defeat.


Matty
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Re: [Matty] EU Withdrawal Negotiations or Reply Privately

A n internal report recently the other day, came out, even the BBC saying around 3% of commenters were pro brexit, do I have to find examples for you? I am a racist knuckle headed thickos, it's took he!p and care to type this, but when I am less bigoted, perhaps I will find things, they contradict, it is uncertain, but one source in your favour is good enough, just like a referendum until you get your answer!?
The public voted, the bugger is called democracy, and by hell they tried to not have that vote go that way, Cuba or Venezuela?


PaulC
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Re: [Matty] EU Withdrawal Negotiations or Reply Privately


In Reply To
A n internal report recently the other day, came out, even the BBC saying around 3% of commenters were pro brexit, do I have to find examples for you? I am a racist knuckle headed thickos, it's took he!p and care to type this, but when I am less bigoted, perhaps I will find things, they contradict, it is uncertain, but one source in your favour is good enough, just like a referendum until you get your answer!?
The public voted, the bugger is called democracy, and by hell they tried to not have that vote go that way, Cuba or Venezuela?


I've googled

"bbc internal report 3% brexit"

but nothing comes up. Do you have a link to this report?

The public voted by a small majority to leave the EU, unaware of the consequences of that action.

I can't think of any argument against that same public having a further say when they become fully aware of the consequences of leaving the EU. If you have faith in the public still wanting Brexit you have nothing to lose, surely.

What could be worse than taking such a drastic course of action when the electorate might well be opposed to it?

Personally, I believe it was a massive mistake to offer a referendum in the first place. Parliament, our elected representatives, should make such decisions. We are a representative democracy, not a populist one, but since we started with a plebiscite it is only reasonable to finish with one.

Though I still hope our MPs come to their senses and vote for what they believe is right for the country. Parris was 100% right to point to the scandal of MPs deliberately voting against what they think to be right and voting for what they believe will damage the country.

The polls show the public is now against Brexit - Parliamentarians should take note and not drive us headlong into something which soon only the zealots will want.


PaulC
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Re: [PaulC] EU Withdrawal Negotiations or Reply Privately

Number 10 warns Scottish government over threat to publish leaked Brexit analysis


"...In his letter to Mr Davis, Mr Russell said: "As you are aware the Scottish government considers that the public have a right to know the impact on jobs and living standards of the UK government’s decision to pursue the UK’s exit from the EU and therefore that this analysis should be made publicly available...


Asked how they would respond to the Scottish government making them public, a Number 10 spokesman said: "We expect those who have access to the published analysis, as it's in the overwhelming national interest, not to publish anything that would risk our negotiating position."”
https://www.politicshome.com/news/uk/uk-regions/scotland/news/92536/number-10-warns-scottish-government-over-threat-publish

On the other hand, publication might just frighten the electorate when it learns of the imminent disaster facing them.

We can't be having that. We need to treat the electorate like mushrooms if we are to deliver Berxit.


Matty
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Re: [PaulC] EU Withdrawal Negotiations or Reply Privately


In Reply To
Number 10 warns Scottish government over threat to publish leaked Brexit analysis


"...In his letter to Mr Davis, Mr Russell said: "As you are aware the Scottish government considers that the public have a right to know the impact on jobs and living standards of the UK government’s decision to pursue the UK’s exit from the EU and therefore that this analysis should be made publicly available...


Asked how they would respond to the Scottish government making them public, a Number 10 spokesman said: "We expect those who have access to the published analysis, as it's in the overwhelming national interest, not to publish anything that would risk our negotiating position."”
https://www.politicshome.com/news/uk/uk-regions/scotland/news/92536/number-10-warns-scottish-government-over-threat-publish

On the other hand, publication might just frighten the electorate when it learns of the imminent disaster facing them.

We can't be having that. We need to treat the electorate like mushrooms if we are to deliver Berxit.[/
reply I can't remember my source, think it came from a governmental think tank, it came from a source you would trust and would probably not think would publish it, it was based on the words spoken on the BBC, and what time was given to each speaker, using quite scientific methods also noted the negativity and bias of the ' neutral' reporters.
You make some good points, the referendum was too point blank, remain or leave it was too stark and did n't delve into the options enough for people like me to be able too expressive my mixed feelings.
We do elect politicians to do our business, they democratically decided to have a referendum, the public voted, but you will have us scrap that, anyway need too shush before the Stasi, alt left brigade hunt me down
When I can be arsed I will find sources,however as I am well read and take my information from all media, left,right and in between, plus my red wine habit don't have it to hand, but if you want to lend me a copy of the Socialist Worker guess I will learn the truth


(This post was edited by Matty on Feb 4, 2018, 6:01 PM)


Isaac
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Re: [PaulC] EU Withdrawal Negotiations or Reply Privately


In Reply To

In Reply To
There is no evidence that anybody has changed their minds, it's just wishful thinking on your part only backed up by some ludicrous poll in the independent. Yes it is laughable.


In the wacky world of the blind Brexiteers, opinion polling by independent organisations is not evidence!

LOL!

The Independent reported the most recent poll. So did the Torygraph. Even that pitiful excuse doesn't work, Isaac.








How many more times? Polls are meaningless, nobody knew which way the result was going to go, a referendum is quite different to a general election.
We know the outcome, there isn't going to be a second referendum, and nor should there be and even Jeremy Corbyn has accepted that.


http://www.independent.co.uk/...erview-a7316301.html


(This post was edited by Isaac on Feb 5, 2018, 2:15 PM)


PaulC
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Re: [Isaac] EU Withdrawal Negotiations or Reply Privately


In Reply To
.
We know the outcome, there isn't going to be a second referendum, and nor should there be


Yes, let's just propel ourselves headlong into something the people of Britain clearly no longer want.

if the Brexiteers had the least bit of faith in their nonsense they would welcome a referendum to rubber stamp the deal reached by the Maybot and the EU.

The fact they vehemently oppose one tells us all we need to know.


Isaac
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Re: [PaulC] EU Withdrawal Negotiations or Reply Privately


In Reply To

In Reply To
.
We know the outcome, there isn't going to be a second referendum, and nor should there be


Yes, let's just propel ourselves headlong into something the people of Britain clearly no longer want.

if the Brexiteers had the least bit of faith in their nonsense they would welcome a referendum to rubber stamp the deal reached by the Maybot and the EU.

The fact they vehemently oppose one tells us all we need to know.




People no longer want? Evidence for this? No there isn't any!
We can go over this forever more, a second referendum isn't going to happen and of course you wouldn't want one had you got the outcome that you wanted.

Most reasonable people who voted remain have accepted that, it's rather a shame that you can't.
Do you do the same after general elections if they don't go your way?


(This post was edited by Isaac on Feb 5, 2018, 3:43 PM)


PaulC
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Feb 5, 2018, 3:51 PM

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Re: [Isaac] EU Withdrawal Negotiations or Reply Privately


In Reply To


People no longer want? Evidence for this? No there isn't any!


"If there was a referendum on Britain’s membership of the EU, how would you vote?"

30 Jun Yougov Leave 48% Remain 52%
24 Jul Yougov Leave 48% Remain 52%
24 Aug Yougov Leave 49% Remain 51%
24 Oct Yougov Leave 48% Remain 52%
17 Nov Yougov Leave 50% Remain 50%
28 Jan Yougov Leave 48% Remain 52%


"If there was another referendum on Britain’s membership of the EU, how would you vote?"
21 Jun Panelbase Leave 52% Remain 48%
18 AUg Opinium Leave 47% Remain 53%
15 Sep Opinium Leave 50% remain 52%
22 Sep Opinium Leave 49% Remain 51%
20 Oct Opinium Leave 49% Remain 51%
10 Dec ICM Leave 48% remain 52%
11 Jan ComRes Leave 46% Remain 54%
19 Jan ComRes Leave 49% Remain 51%

In hindsight, do you think Britain was right or wrong to vote to leave the EU?
31 Aug Yougov Right 50% Wrong 50%
24 Sep Yougov Right 49% Wrong 51%
11 Oct yougov Right 47% Wrong 53%
19 Oct Yougov Right 48% Wrong 52%
8 Nov Yougov right 48% Wrong 52%
5 Dec Yougov Right 48% Wrong 52%
11 Dec Yougov Right 49% Wromg 51%
20 Dec youigov Right 48% Wrong 52%
8 Jan Yougov Right 48% Wrong 52%
17 Jan Yougov Right 51% Wrong 49%
29 Jan Yougov Right 47% Wrong 53%

"Should the United Kingdom remain a member of the European Union, or leave the European Union?"

30 Jun Survation Leave 46% Remain 54%
14 Jul BMG Leave 49% Remain 51%
11 Aug BMG Leave 49% Remain 51%
15 Sep BMG Leave 48% Remain 52%
23 Sep BMG Leave 51% Remain 49%
5 Oct Survation Leave 48% remain 52%
20 Oct BMG Leave 48% Remain 52%
17 Nov BMG Leave 50% Remain 50%
1 Dec Survation Leave 48% Remain 52%
8 Dec BMG Leave 454% Remain 55%





In Reply To
We can go over this forever more, a second referendum isn't going to happen and of course you wouldn't want one had you got the outcome that you wanted.

Most reasonable people who voted remain have accepted that, it's rather a shame that you can't.
Do you do the same after general elections if they don't go your way?


It's hilarious how the Brexiteers forget their dear leader Nigel Farage told us it would be unfinished business if there was a narrow vote to remain.

They really are a hoot!
"
Nigel Farage wants second referendum if Remain campaign scrapes narrow win
The Ukip leader speaks to the Mirror’s Associate Editor Kevin Maguire and warns that a '52-48 result would be unfinished business'"

https://www.mirror.co.uk/...d-referendum-7985017


(This post was edited by PaulC on Feb 5, 2018, 3:57 PM)


windydcfc
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Re: [Isaac] EU Withdrawal Negotiations or Reply Privately


In Reply To

In Reply To

In Reply To
.
We know the outcome, there isn't going to be a second referendum, and nor should there be


Yes, let's just propel ourselves headlong into something the people of Britain clearly no longer want.

if the Brexiteers had the least bit of faith in their nonsense they would welcome a referendum to rubber stamp the deal reached by the Maybot and the EU.

The fact they vehemently oppose one tells us all we need to know.




People no longer want? Evidence for this? No there isn't any!
We can go over this forever more, a second referendum isn't going to happen and of course you wouldn't want one had you got the outcome that you wanted.

Most reasonable people who voted remain have accepted that, it's rather a shame that you can't.
Do you do the same after general elections if they don't go your way?



There’s absolutely zero evidence that the country wants a hard style brexit either. The referendum vote was extremely close & the outcome of brexit should take this into account. I voted remain & accept the result. But those types like Jacob Rees Mogg within the Tory Party pushing for a hard brexit, are out of touch with the majority of the country!


Isaac
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Feb 5, 2018, 4:15 PM

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Re: [PaulC] EU Withdrawal Negotiations or Reply Privately


In Reply To

In Reply To


People no longer want? Evidence for this? No there isn't any!


"If there was a referendum on Britain’s membership of the EU, how would you vote?"

30 Jun Yougov Leave 48% Remain 52%
24 Jul Yougov Leave 48% Remain 52%
24 Aug Yougov Leave 49% Remain 51%
24 Oct Yougov Leave 48% Remain 52%
17 Nov Yougov Leave 50% Remain 50%
28 Jan Yougov Leave 48% Remain 52%


"If there was another referendum on Britain’s membership of the EU, how would you vote?"
21 Jun Panelbase Leave 52% Remain 48%
18 AUg Opinium Leave 47% Remain 53%
15 Sep Opinium Leave 50% remain 52%
22 Sep Opinium Leave 49% Remain 51%
20 Oct Opinium Leave 49% Remain 51%
10 Dec ICM Leave 48% remain 52%
11 Jan ComRes Leave 46% Remain 54%
19 Jan ComRes Leave 49% Remain 51%

In hindsight, do you think Britain was right or wrong to vote to leave the EU?
31 Aug Yougov Right 50% Wrong 50%
24 Sep Yougov Right 49% Wrong 51%
11 Oct yougov Right 47% Wrong 53%
19 Oct Yougov Right 48% Wrong 52%
8 Nov Yougov right 48% Wrong 52%
5 Dec Yougov Right 48% Wrong 52%
11 Dec Yougov Right 49% Wromg 51%
20 Dec youigov Right 48% Wrong 52%
8 Jan Yougov Right 48% Wrong 52%
17 Jan Yougov Right 51% Wrong 49%
29 Jan Yougov Right 47% Wrong 53%

"Should the United Kingdom remain a member of the European Union, or leave the European Union?"

30 Jun Survation Leave 46% Remain 54%
14 Jul BMG Leave 49% Remain 51%
11 Aug BMG Leave 49% Remain 51%
15 Sep BMG Leave 48% Remain 52%
23 Sep BMG Leave 51% Remain 49%
5 Oct Survation Leave 48% remain 52%
20 Oct BMG Leave 48% Remain 52%
17 Nov BMG Leave 50% Remain 50%
1 Dec Survation Leave 48% Remain 52%
8 Dec BMG Leave 454% Remain 55%





In Reply To
We can go over this forever more, a second referendum isn't going to happen and of course you wouldn't want one had you got the outcome that you wanted.

Most reasonable people who voted remain have accepted that, it's rather a shame that you can't.
Do you do the same after general elections if they don't go your way?


It's hilarious how the Brexiteers forget their dear leader Nigel Farage told us it would be unfinished business if there was a narrow vote to remain.

They really are a hoot!
"
Nigel Farage wants second referendum if Remain campaign scrapes narrow win
The Ukip leader speaks to the Mirror’s Associate Editor Kevin Maguire and warns that a '52-48 result would be unfinished business'"

https://www.mirror.co.uk/...d-referendum-7985017


It's not going to happen so I really think we need to move on.


PaulC
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Feb 5, 2018, 4:34 PM

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Re: [Isaac] EU Withdrawal Negotiations or Reply Privately


In Reply To
It's not going to happen so I really think we need to move on.


Move on then. No one's stopping you/


northstandexile
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Feb 5, 2018, 7:12 PM

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Re: [PaulC] EU Withdrawal Negotiations or Reply Privately

My issue with all this is the practical problems that leaving EU will cause problems for ordinary folk.

Today David Davis says we will be coming out of custom union. The French guy says ok, let’s start negotiating the taxes and tariffs and the security checks at the borders.

Then I thought we wanted a frictionless border, especially in Ireland.

Now I am scratching my head and think the Brexiteers just haven’t a clue of the implications of exiting the EU.

Looks like a different coloured passport is the only outcome that the leavers can crow about.


PaulC
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Feb 5, 2018, 7:36 PM

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Re: [northstandexile] EU Withdrawal Negotiations or Reply Privately

 
Yes indeed. The Tories and the Brexiteers want no borders and no customs union.

They'd find it easier to square a circle.


garethwrexy
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Re: [northstandexile] EU Withdrawal Negotiations or Reply Privately

We don't need to be in customs union



wrexham fc fa trophy winners 2013 !


Richard Rundle
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Re: [garethwrexy] EU Withdrawal Negotiations or Reply Privately


In Reply To
We don't need to be in customs union


No, perhaps we don't NEED to be. But it would be a lot better for British business if we were.


northstandexile
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Feb 5, 2018, 9:34 PM

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Re: [garethwrexy] EU Withdrawal Negotiations or Reply Privately


In Reply To
We don't need to be in customs union


Try telling our ‘friends’ on the border between Ulster and the Republic.

A hard border will bring back watch towers, smuggling and murders again.


garethwrexy
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Feb 5, 2018, 9:47 PM

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Re: [northstandexile] EU Withdrawal Negotiations or Reply Privately

Your be over dramatic



wrexham fc fa trophy winners 2013 !


leohoenig
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Feb 6, 2018, 1:34 AM

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Re: [garethwrexy] EU Withdrawal Negotiations or Reply Privately


In Reply To
Your be over dramatic


Not on the Irish border, he won't be



Fat AND Pompous.
The proof that you can have too much of a good thing
Now blogging at http://www.leohoenig.com



HantsLondoner
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Feb 6, 2018, 9:59 AM

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Re: [northstandexile] EU Withdrawal Negotiations or Reply Privately


In Reply To

In Reply To
We don't need to be in customs union


Try telling our ‘friends’ on the border between Ulster and the Republic.

A hard border will bring back watch towers, smuggling and murders again.


It won't happen - the DUP will withdraw their support for the Tories and they won't have a working majority in Parliament. The Republic quite rightly mistrusts the UK Government on this and won't play ball in any way.

The EU really should have insisted on this being resolved at stage 1 of the negotiations (result: the pursuance of soft Brexit with a customs union - there is no alternative), so that the Tory party could have split sooner rather than later, and we would then have had more time to sort this mess out.



If you're going to/been to a Hampshire Premier League match, I'd really appreciate you filling in a questionnaire - available in the Groundhopping/General section, or just PM me for a copy. Thanks.

(This post was edited by HantsLondoner on Feb 6, 2018, 10:04 AM)


jrev61
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Feb 6, 2018, 10:13 AM

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Re: [HantsLondoner] EU Withdrawal Negotiations or Reply Privately

The Conservative Party in reality don't have a majority with or without the DUP. On EU issues many Tories will vote against the government if they don't agree with them and as for other political issues these don't seem to exist at the moment.
So in reality it is a minority government. So far the DUP have been irrelevant in all votes as far as I know.



jrev61


garethwrexy
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Re: [leohoenig] EU Withdrawal Negotiations or Reply Privately

It's a tricky situation



wrexham fc fa trophy winners 2013 !


Part-Timer
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Re: [HantsLondoner] EU Withdrawal Negotiations or Reply Privately


In Reply To
The EU really should have insisted on this being resolved at stage 1 of the negotiations (result: the pursuance of soft Brexit with a customs union - there is no alternative), so that the Tory party could have split sooner rather than later, and we would then have had more time to sort this mess out.

Ultimately this is the key to whole mess. David Cameron called a referendum to avoid a split in the Conservative Party. The Leave result scuppered that. The Tories are now putting off the inevitable by kicking difficult issues down the road to be 'resolved' later for exactly the same reason. Norman Lamont memorably described a previous Conservative administration as giving the impression of being in office but not in power. This one is following suit. They don't have a plan. They are clinging to power not because it is good for the country but because it suits the party and those individuals with ministerial jobs.


Fanatic
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Feb 6, 2018, 2:57 PM

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Re: [Matty] EU Withdrawal Negotiations or Reply Privately


In Reply To
PaulC you make a compelling argument and I would not criticise your passion, your stats I will, how many people who work for papers, the BBC, the ONS, Civil Service are remainers? Train your brain duck to the think independently for once once for...


The newspapers with the largest readerships supported Brexit - i.e. the Mail and Sun. Looking at newspaper circulation in 2016, 51% of the circulation was for pro-Brexit papers (Sun, Mail, Telegraph and Star).

Also worth considering the correlation between newspapers' support for Brexit and their reputation for dishonest reporting.


In Reply To
Ok instead of left leaning media, try oh, the daily mail or breitbart. I get my my news from multiple, often bias sources then way it up in the scientific way I was brought up with, I really can't be arsed to disprove you, the evidence is out there, whether it suits you or me, sometimes they contradict, it's not an exact science.
When you are old enough I will have that drink and explain it more simplistic terms


If you're citing the likes of Breitbart, Westmonster and Infowars, then I think you've already lost the argument.


Climate Change
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Feb 6, 2018, 5:39 PM

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Re: [Fanatic] EU Withdrawal Negotiations or Reply Privately


In Reply To

In Reply To
PaulC you make a compelling argument and I would not criticise your passion, your stats I will, how many people who work for papers, the BBC, the ONS, Civil Service are remainers? Train your brain duck to the think independently for once once for...


The newspapers with the largest readerships supported Brexit - i.e. the Mail and Sun. Looking at newspaper circulation in 2016, 51% of the circulation was for pro-Brexit papers (Sun, Mail, Telegraph and Star).

Also worth considering the correlation between newspapers' support for Brexit and their reputation for dishonest reporting.


In Reply To
Ok instead of left leaning media, try oh, the daily mail or breitbart. I get my my news from multiple, often bias sources then way it up in the scientific way I was brought up with, I really can't be arsed to disprove you, the evidence is out there, whether it suits you or me, sometimes they contradict, it's not an exact science.
When you are old enough I will have that drink and explain it more simplistic terms


If you're citing the likes of Breitbart, Westmonster and Infowars, then I think you've already lost the argument.


No need to read papers anymore.....you Lefties on here seem to have all the answers.



I don't need Google. I have a Hoddy.


PaulC
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Re: [Climate Change] EU Withdrawal Negotiations or Reply Privately


In Reply To

No need to read papers anymore.....you Lefties on here seem to have all the answers.


You could never say that about Brexiteers, that's for sure.

Not any answer that stands up to scrutiny, anyway.


Climate Change
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Re: [PaulC] EU Withdrawal Negotiations or Reply Privately


In Reply To

In Reply To

No need to read papers anymore.....you Lefties on here seem to have all the answers.


You could never say that about Brexiteers, that's for sure.

Not any answer that stands up to scrutiny, anyway.


If the Remainers are so bloody clever, why didn't they win the Referendum?



I don't need Google. I have a Hoddy.


PaulC
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Re: [Climate Change] EU Withdrawal Negotiations or Reply Privately


In Reply To

If the Remainers are so bloody clever, why didn't they win the Referendum?


Because a lot of poorly educated people voted for Brexit innit.


windydcfc
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Re: [PaulC] EU Withdrawal Negotiations or Reply Privately


In Reply To

In Reply To

If the Remainers are so bloody clever, why didn't they win the Referendum?


Because a lot of poorly educated people voted for Brexit innit.



I think he’ll miss the irony PaulWink


Matty
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Re: [windydcfc] EU Withdrawal Negotiations or Reply Privately


In Reply To

In Reply To

In Reply To

If the Remainers are so bloody clever, why didn't they win the Referendum?


Because a lot of poorly educated people voted for Brexit innit.



I think he’ll miss the irony PaulWink

You, me and the other 52% unwashed and uneducated wont.
PaulC a poll is partly how you ask the question, if, as some but certainly not many have moved to remain, could that just be down to Theresa May's Lilly livered negotiation and caving in to the EU mafia, many countries are fed up with them, Britain was the first, more will follow
A


PaulC
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Re: [Matty] EU Withdrawal Negotiations or Reply Privately

The Brexit impact assessments the Tories wanted to keep secret.

Pro-Brexit areas will be worst hit.


Effect on GDP



PaulC
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Re: [PaulC] EU Withdrawal Negotiations or Reply Privately

 

No deal Brexit - 2,800,000 fewer jobs / £158bn loss per year

Trade agreement Brexit (but outside the single market) - 1,750,000 fewer jobs / £99bn loss per year

Soft Brexit - 700,000 fewer jobs / £39bn loss per year

Remain in EU - No impact on jobs / No £ loss per year.
_________________


Fanatic
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Re: [PaulC] EU Withdrawal Negotiations or Reply Privately

This headline caught my eye today: Theresa May refuses to rule out selling off the NHS in post-Brexit trade deal with Trump


Climate Change
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Re: [PaulC] EU Withdrawal Negotiations or Reply Privately


In Reply To
Yes indeed, if we are to leave the EU we should measure the effect of Brexit after we have left.

It would be far better not to leave though - as the majority of the electorate now finally recognises.


How can they recognise if they are so thick as you say they are?



I don't need Google. I have a Hoddy.


PaulC
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Re: [Climate Change] EU Withdrawal Negotiations or Reply Privately


In Reply To

In Reply To
Yes indeed, if we are to leave the EU we should measure the effect of Brexit after we have left.

It would be far better not to leave though - as the majority of the electorate now finally recognises.


How can they recognise if they are so thick as you say they are?


We only need 3% to come to their senses.


Matty
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Re: [PaulC] EU Withdrawal Negotiations or Reply Privately

Perhaps you fail to realise that in the East /North Midlands we have consistently seen wages driven down, people are now willing to take that hit in the short term to gain back control of our economy, the doomsday scenario spread widely has n't come to pass, the ONS have admitted as much.
No sources, trying to mend the wounds from my knuckles dragging on the ground


PaulC
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Feb 7, 2018, 9:09 PM

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Re: [Matty] EU Withdrawal Negotiations or Reply Privately

Good luck with the short term hit of widespread unemployment.

What do you reckon will happen to wages when there is widespread unemployment?


UKPunk
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Re: [Fanatic] EU Withdrawal Negotiations or Reply Privately


In Reply To

It seems to me they're already clearing the way for more privatisation by running the NHS down to a point where they can claim it's the only way to save it.



1-0-1-0-4-25-40-65-181-289=606

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007Dale
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Re: [PaulC] EU Withdrawal Negotiations or Reply Privately


In Reply To
Good luck with the short term hit of widespread unemployment.

What do you reckon will happen to wages when there is widespread unemployment?


I must say I've enjoyed reading the remoaners working themselves up into a stats-filled frenzy.

This has turned into one of the most comical threads on the forum now. Pass the smelling salts!

Why would we believe these stats now? When (allegedly) equally clever and smart people predicted doomsday beginning straight after the exit vote.

But even if we entertain the notion that they're even half right, are they factoring in the upside of free-trade agreements with other huge economies or is this just the gross impact of leaving? This seems to be assuming that we do nothing over the next year or so to further our trade.

But perhaps the remoaners just like to grab a saucy headline.

And as for Brexit means privatisation of the NHS - come on, really? We can't blame Brexit for everything, or perhaps remoaners can.

Do carry on, it's very entertaining....


Richard Rundle
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Re: [007Dale] EU Withdrawal Negotiations or Reply Privately


In Reply To
But even if we entertain the notion that they're even half right, are they factoring in the upside of free-trade agreements with other huge economies or is this just the gross impact of leaving? This seems to be assuming that we do nothing over the next year or so to further our trade.


That seems a bit of cutting off your nose to spite your face. Seven of our eight biggest export partners are EU nations. Why should we lose the free trade deals with them so we can do deals with other countries?

And of course the other one (the biggest market) is the USA. Does anyone think we're going to get anything like a free trade deal with the current incumbent of the White House?


windydcfc
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Re: [007Dale] EU Withdrawal Negotiations or Reply Privately


In Reply To

In Reply To
Good luck with the short term hit of widespread unemployment.

What do you reckon will happen to wages when there is widespread unemployment?


I must say I've enjoyed reading the remoaners working themselves up into a stats-filled frenzy.

This has turned into one of the most comical threads on the forum now. Pass the smelling salts!

Why would we believe these stats now? When (allegedly) equally clever and smart people predicted doomsday beginning straight after the exit vote.

But even if we entertain the notion that they're even half right, are they factoring in the upside of free-trade agreements with other huge economies or is this just the gross impact of leaving? This seems to be assuming that we do nothing over the next year or so to further our trade.

But perhaps the remoaners just like to grab a saucy headline.

And as for Brexit means privatisation of the NHS - come on, really? We can't blame Brexit for everything, or perhaps remoaners can.

Do carry on, it's very entertaining....



I blame the the Tory Party’s disunity for brexit & that disunity will land us in a recession. As for the NHS, that’s an ideological policy by the Tories to privatise it. I’m worried that by the next General Election they would’ve have totally destroyed the economy & Labour are left with a corpse to try and resurrect.


HantsLondoner
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Re: [windydcfc] EU Withdrawal Negotiations or Reply Privately

Taking control back = allowing the Conservatives a free hand to ru(i)n the country as they see fit.



If you're going to/been to a Hampshire Premier League match, I'd really appreciate you filling in a questionnaire - available in the Groundhopping/General section, or just PM me for a copy. Thanks.

(This post was edited by HantsLondoner on Feb 8, 2018, 8:21 AM)


Isaac
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Feb 8, 2018, 8:35 AM

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Re: [HantsLondoner] EU Withdrawal Negotiations or Reply Privately


In Reply To
Taking control back = allowing the Conservatives a free hand to ru(i)n the country as they see fit.


We get the government that we elect and not an unelected one in Brussels.


007Dale
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Re: [Richard Rundle] EU Withdrawal Negotiations or Reply Privately


In Reply To

In Reply To
But even if we entertain the notion that they're even half right, are they factoring in the upside of free-trade agreements with other huge economies or is this just the gross impact of leaving? This seems to be assuming that we do nothing over the next year or so to further our trade.


That seems a bit of cutting off your nose to spite your face. Seven of our eight biggest export partners are EU nations. Why should we lose the free trade deals with them so we can do deals with other countries?

And of course the other one (the biggest market) is the USA. Does anyone think we're going to get anything like a free trade deal with the current incumbent of the White House?


John: "you've put your house on the market, you'll be homeless"
Jane: "i'm going to buy another house"

If we only look at one side of a transaction, we get a completely incoherent perspective.


Isaac
Man City Transfer Target!

Feb 8, 2018, 8:39 AM

Posts: 9628
Location: Kent
Team(s): ABMU


Views: 4658
Re: [PaulC] EU Withdrawal Negotiations or Reply Privately


In Reply To
Good luck with the short term hit of widespread unemployment.

What do you reckon will happen to wages when there is widespread unemployment?


Here we go...........more project fear!

Wasn't this supposed to happen as soon as the result was announced? More than 18 months on and no sign of it happening thus far.


(This post was edited by Isaac on Feb 8, 2018, 8:41 AM)


HantsLondoner
First Team Star

Feb 8, 2018, 8:43 AM

Posts: 2769
Location: South Hampshire
Team(s): Hants/Middx/Sussex Non-League, Brentford, THFC, Eastleigh, SC Freiburg


Views: 4654
Re: [Isaac] EU Withdrawal Negotiations or Reply Privately


In Reply To
We get the government that we elect and not an unelected one in Brussels.


52% of 'the people' voted for Brexit,
42% of people voted for the Conservatives, who have taken it upon themselves to administer Brexit (not 'the people').
They are pandering to their hard right and the DUP who represent, what, 15% of the electorate?

That's a lot of UK people not being represented.

Admittedly all this is happening with f*** all check and balance from the main opposing party, who have their own problems, with another leader whose natural instincts are probably at odds with a lot of the rest of their party.



If you're going to/been to a Hampshire Premier League match, I'd really appreciate you filling in a questionnaire - available in the Groundhopping/General section, or just PM me for a copy. Thanks.

(This post was edited by HantsLondoner on Feb 8, 2018, 8:44 AM)


PaulC
Man City Transfer Target!


Feb 8, 2018, 8:58 AM

Posts: 11344
Location: Ayrshire, Midlothian
Team(s): AFC Darwen, Troon, Ayr Utd, Burnley


Views: 4650
Re: [Isaac] EU Withdrawal Negotiations or Reply Privately


In Reply To

In Reply To
Good luck with the short term hit of widespread unemployment.

What do you reckon will happen to wages when there is widespread unemployment?


Here we go...........more project fear!

Wasn't this supposed to happen as soon as the result was announced? More than 18 months on and no sign of it happening thus far.


Yup, we've had enough of experts.

Let's all go over the cliff together. You know it makes sense.


Richard Rundle
Man City Transfer Target!

Feb 8, 2018, 9:24 AM

Posts: 8368
Location:
Team(s):


Views: 4640
Re: [Isaac] EU Withdrawal Negotiations or Reply Privately


In Reply To
We get the government that we elect and not an unelected one in Brussels.


So what did my vote in the European elections go toward?

To me London is just as remote as Brussels.


PaulC
Man City Transfer Target!


Feb 8, 2018, 9:53 AM

Posts: 11344
Location: Ayrshire, Midlothian
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Views: 4626
Re: [Isaac] EU Withdrawal Negotiations or Reply Privately


In Reply To
We get the government that we elect and not an unelected one in Brussels.


Laugh

Tell that to the people of Scotland.


pitch 63
First Team Star

Feb 8, 2018, 10:14 AM

Posts: 2070
Location:
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Views: 4613
Re: [PaulC] EU Withdrawal Negotiations or Reply Privately

I can't believe that there are still so many lemmings around.

We are not going to get anything out of the EU, USA or anyone else.

The fresh produce industry already has produce rotting in the fields and in the greenhouse because there is nobody to pick the produce. My dentist has returned to Roumania because she feared for her children.

So what will happen - the UK will be in a massive mess like Greece, I fear for the life that my grandchildren will have.


PaulC
Man City Transfer Target!


Feb 8, 2018, 10:25 AM

Posts: 11344
Location: Ayrshire, Midlothian
Team(s): AFC Darwen, Troon, Ayr Utd, Burnley


Views: 4605
Re: [Isaac] EU Withdrawal Negotiations or Reply Privately


In Reply To
Here we go...........more project fear!

Wasn't this supposed to happen as soon as the result was announced? More than 18 months on and no sign of it happening thus far.


It would be good if a scheme could be organised whereby all redundancies are issued to Brexit voters only.


Isaac
Man City Transfer Target!

Feb 8, 2018, 10:49 AM

Posts: 9628
Location: Kent
Team(s): ABMU


Views: 4598
Re: [PaulC] EU Withdrawal Negotiations or Reply Privately


In Reply To

In Reply To
Here we go...........more project fear!

Wasn't this supposed to happen as soon as the result was announced? More than 18 months on and no sign of it happening thus far.


It would be good if a scheme could be organised whereby all redundancies are issued to Brexit voters only.


What redundancies?

For somebody of your intelligence this is just ridiculous. Your football related postings are great and very informative but what you're posting on here is becoming more and more nonsensical. If you want to carry on digging yourself into a hole that's up to you.

Just to remind you that you suggested recently that we wait until we've actually left the EU before making judgments.


Towlawtom
Reserve Team Regular


Feb 8, 2018, 11:14 AM

Posts: 611
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Views: 4583
Re: [Isaac] EU Withdrawal Negotiations or Reply Privately


In Reply To

In Reply To
Taking control back = allowing the Conservatives a free hand to ru(i)n the country as they see fit.


We get the government that we elect and not an unelected one in Brussels.


Isaac, What laws are currently better with our elected government then a European one or which ones are going to be better when we leave the EU. I'm stumped as I can't think of any.



I need to have the last word, as it always looks as if I am right !


PaulC
Man City Transfer Target!


Feb 8, 2018, 11:25 AM

Posts: 11344
Location: Ayrshire, Midlothian
Team(s): AFC Darwen, Troon, Ayr Utd, Burnley


Views: 4574
Re: [Towlawtom] EU Withdrawal Negotiations or Reply Privately


In Reply To
Isaac, What laws are currently better with our elected government then a European one or which ones are going to be better when we leave the EU. I'm stumped as I can't think of any.


What did the EU ever do for us?


https://fullfact.org/...EmYWZtAaAkxTEALw_wcB


windydcfc
Man City Transfer Target!


Feb 8, 2018, 2:41 PM

Posts: 10290
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Views: 4512
Re: [Towlawtom] EU Withdrawal Negotiations or Reply Privately


In Reply To

In Reply To

In Reply To
Taking control back = allowing the Conservatives a free hand to ru(i)n the country as they see fit.


We get the government that we elect and not an unelected one in Brussels.


Isaac, What laws are currently better with our elected government then a European one or which ones are going to be better when we leave the EU. I'm stumped as I can't think of any.



For the quasi Tories/UKIP hard brexit types. A hard brexit is the purest & only way forward. Anything less is a failure in there eyes! Workers rights will be the first thing to go though! This is because profit is king & we’ll all be the losers! Absolutely nothing to do with getting our powers back! What does that actually mean anyway? The FPTP electoral system isn’t democracy & isn’t the will of the people!


Towlawtom
Reserve Team Regular


Feb 8, 2018, 4:01 PM

Posts: 611
Location:
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Views: 4478
Re: [windydcfc] EU Withdrawal Negotiations or Reply Privately

Who wants Full employment paying Third world wages?



I need to have the last word, as it always looks as if I am right !


PaulC
Man City Transfer Target!


Feb 8, 2018, 4:29 PM

Posts: 11344
Location: Ayrshire, Midlothian
Team(s): AFC Darwen, Troon, Ayr Utd, Burnley


Views: 4464
Re: [windydcfc] EU Withdrawal Negotiations or Reply Privately


In Reply To
For the quasi Tories/UKIP hard brexit types. A hard brexit is the purest & only way forward. Anything less is a failure in there eyes! Workers rights will be the first thing to go though! This is because profit is king & we’ll all be the losers! Absolutely nothing to do with getting our powers back! What does that actually mean anyway? The FPTP electoral system isn’t democracy & isn’t the will of the people!


Yeh but Isaac will have got his country back, innit.

Better to be exploited by proper English employers than have your rights protected by foreigners.

You know it makes sense.


steveking
Reserve Team Star

Feb 8, 2018, 6:54 PM

Posts: 738
Location: Surbiton
Team(s): Ware, Everton, Kingstonian, Leicester, Portsmouth


Views: 4420
Re: [Towlawtom] EU Withdrawal Negotiations or Reply Privately


In Reply To
Isaac, What laws are currently better with our elected government then a European one or which ones are going to be better when we leave the EU. I'm stumped as I can't think of any.

I follow this thread with interest but am frustrated that these type of questions never get answered. Perhaps they are treated as rhetorical but to me they get to the core of much of the discussion. Any chance of an answer?


Matty
Reserve Team Star

Feb 8, 2018, 11:03 PM

Posts: 841
Location: Derbyshire
Team(s): All things Derbyshire


Views: 4346
Re: [steveking] EU Withdrawal Negotiations or Reply Privately

Slightly conflicted, a slightly badly reported, partially true? Report on Sky re massive downturn in growth, then on World Service a warning that due to record levels of employment we may see inflation and interest rises due to wage growth as we near full employment input doomsday scenario!
I know some of the factors counter each other, but when someone clings onto one stat, from one poll! Well by that measure the remainers won the referendum! Read the reality! Us thickos won it! Whether our politicians see it through?


colpic
Chelsea Transfer Target


Feb 9, 2018, 12:40 AM

Posts: 3332
Location: North West Lincolnshire
Team(s): Scotter United (Scunthorpe League), AFC Telford(home town club),


Views: 4298
Re: [steveking] EU Withdrawal Negotiations or Reply Privately


In Reply To

In Reply To
Isaac, What laws are currently better with our elected government then a European one or which ones are going to be better when we leave the EU. I'm stumped as I can't think of any.

I follow this thread with interest but am frustrated that these type of questions never get answered. Perhaps they are treated as rhetorical but to me they get to the core of much of the discussion. Any chance of an answer?

:

The answer will be, as ever, 'if you don't like it you know where the Tunnel is'.



Where's the 'ignore this poster' button?


Part-Timer
Chelsea Transfer Target

Feb 9, 2018, 10:26 AM

Posts: 4458
Location: Huntingdonshire
Team(s): Brentford, Bradford City, Peterborough United, Yaxley


Views: 4194
Re: [colpic] EU Withdrawal Negotiations or Reply Privately


In Reply To

In Reply To

In Reply To
Isaac, What laws are currently better with our elected government then a European one or which ones are going to be better when we leave the EU. I'm stumped as I can't think of any.

I follow this thread with interest but am frustrated that these type of questions never get answered. Perhaps they are treated as rhetorical but to me they get to the core of much of the discussion. Any chance of an answer?

:

The answer will be, as ever, 'if you don't like it you know where the Tunnel is'.

Use it before the Brexiteers fill it in. Boris is already planning a bridge to aid his escape. Tongue


Isaac
Man City Transfer Target!

Feb 9, 2018, 1:27 PM

Posts: 9628
Location: Kent
Team(s): ABMU


Views: 4145
Re: [Towlawtom] EU Withdrawal Negotiations or Reply Privately


In Reply To
Who wants Full employment paying Third world wages?


So has a date been fixed for the commencement of third world wages or is this just more project fear?


Isaac
Man City Transfer Target!

Feb 9, 2018, 1:29 PM

Posts: 9628
Location: Kent
Team(s): ABMU


Views: 4144
Re: [PaulC] EU Withdrawal Negotiations or Reply Privately


In Reply To

In Reply To
For the quasi Tories/UKIP hard brexit types. A hard brexit is the purest & only way forward. Anything less is a failure in there eyes! Workers rights will be the first thing to go though! This is because profit is king & we’ll all be the losers! Absolutely nothing to do with getting our powers back! What does that actually mean anyway? The FPTP electoral system isn’t democracy & isn’t the will of the people!


Yeh but Isaac will have got his country back, innit.

Better to be exploited by proper English employers than have your rights protected by foreigners.

You know it makes sense.


Which is more than can be said of most of your postings, and what exactly is this word 'innit' supposed to mean?


jrev61
Man City Transfer Target!

Feb 9, 2018, 1:35 PM

Posts: 7897
Location: Northampton
Team(s): None


Views: 4137
Re: [Isaac] EU Withdrawal Negotiations or Reply Privately


In Reply To

In Reply To

In Reply To
For the quasi Tories/UKIP hard brexit types. A hard brexit is the purest & only way forward. Anything less is a failure in there eyes! Workers rights will be the first thing to go though! This is because profit is king & we’ll all be the losers! Absolutely nothing to do with getting our powers back! What does that actually mean anyway? The FPTP electoral system isn’t democracy & isn’t the will of the people!


Yeh but Isaac will have got his country back, innit.

Better to be exploited by proper English employers than have your rights protected by foreigners.

You know it makes sense.


Which is more than can be said of most of your postings, and what exactly is this word 'innit' supposed to mean?


Isn't it the politically correct term for an eskimo?Smile



jrev61


Isaac
Man City Transfer Target!

Feb 9, 2018, 1:38 PM

Posts: 9628
Location: Kent
Team(s): ABMU


Views: 4132
Re: [Towlawtom] EU Withdrawal Negotiations or Reply Privately


In Reply To

In Reply To

In Reply To
Taking control back = allowing the Conservatives a free hand to ru(i)n the country as they see fit.


We get the government that we elect and not an unelected one in Brussels.


Isaac, What laws are currently better with our elected government then a European one or which ones are going to be better when we leave the EU. I'm stumped as I can't think of any.


Well perhaps you can explain what the point of this is http://www.nolgvbrokers.co.uk/eu-proposals-for-driver-cpc-amendments/

I work in the road haulage industry and all it's done is push up costs which inevitably get passed onto the consumer and create a chronic shortage of lorry drivers.

In case anybody doesn't know, this costs in the region of £500 per driver and does little if anything to improve safety. There's no test involved and it's not going to turn a bad driver into a good one.

Hopefully it'll be kicked into touch once we're out of the EU!


Isaac
Man City Transfer Target!

Feb 9, 2018, 1:39 PM

Posts: 9628
Location: Kent
Team(s): ABMU


Views: 4130
Re: [colpic] EU Withdrawal Negotiations or Reply Privately


In Reply To

In Reply To

In Reply To
Isaac, What laws are currently better with our elected government then a European one or which ones are going to be better when we leave the EU. I'm stumped as I can't think of any.

I follow this thread with interest but am frustrated that these type of questions never get answered. Perhaps they are treated as rhetorical but to me they get to the core of much of the discussion. Any chance of an answer?

:

The answer will be, as ever, 'if you don't like it you know where the Tunnel is'.


Exactly, and what do you think remainers would be saying if the result had gone the other way?


Fanatic
First Team Star


Feb 9, 2018, 2:43 PM

Posts: 2423
Location: Aldgate
Team(s):


Views: 4100
Re: [Isaac] EU Withdrawal Negotiations or Reply Privately


In Reply To

In Reply To

In Reply To

In Reply To
Taking control back = allowing the Conservatives a free hand to ru(i)n the country as they see fit.


We get the government that we elect and not an unelected one in Brussels.


Isaac, What laws are currently better with our elected government then a European one or which ones are going to be better when we leave the EU. I'm stumped as I can't think of any.


Well perhaps you can explain what the point of this is http://www.nolgvbrokers.co.uk/eu-proposals-for-driver-cpc-amendments/

I work in the road haulage industry and all it's done is push up costs which inevitably get passed onto the consumer and create a chronic shortage of lorry drivers.

In case anybody doesn't know, this costs in the region of £500 per driver and does little if anything to improve safety. There's no test involved and it's not going to turn a bad driver into a good one.

Hopefully it'll be kicked into touch once we're out of the EU!


I think most decent employers would want to ensure their drivers are well trained, and the country would be better off without companies who wouldn't do it. A day of training a year is hardly a massive waste of money. The Freight Transport Association support CPCs and have said they wouldn't want it scrapped if Brexit happens, so it's unlikely you're going to get your wish.


mip
Man City Transfer Target!


Feb 9, 2018, 2:56 PM

Posts: 9850
Location: Odense
Team(s): Portsmouth, OB, Svendborg fB, Tved B


Views: 4093
Re: [Isaac] EU Withdrawal Negotiations or Reply Privately


In Reply To

In Reply To

In Reply To

In Reply To
Taking control back = allowing the Conservatives a free hand to ru(i)n the country as they see fit.


We get the government that we elect and not an unelected one in Brussels.


Isaac, What laws are currently better with our elected government then a European one or which ones are going to be better when we leave the EU. I'm stumped as I can't think of any.


Well perhaps you can explain what the point of this is http://www.nolgvbrokers.co.uk/eu-proposals-for-driver-cpc-amendments/

I work in the road haulage industry and all it's done is push up costs which inevitably get passed onto the consumer and create a chronic shortage of lorry drivers.

In case anybody doesn't know, this costs in the region of £500 per driver and does little if anything to improve safety. There's no test involved and it's not going to turn a bad driver into a good one.

Hopefully it'll be kicked into touch once we're out of the EU!


You've actually read this?

The amendments is to make certain drivers actually attend different courses instead of sitting the same course multiple times, attend a road safety course and "The EC is obviously looking to add more specialised, in-depth modules to Driver CPC so that drivers can choose courses that are more focused to their current role.". So drivers should actually do courses that make them better to do whatever specialised job they do.

All seems quite sensible to me.

And to at all have a Driver CPC, you've ever seen the stats about road accidents involving lorrys?


Isaac
Man City Transfer Target!

Feb 9, 2018, 3:39 PM

Posts: 9628
Location: Kent
Team(s): ABMU


Views: 4735
Re: [Fanatic] EU Withdrawal Negotiations or Reply Privately


In Reply To

In Reply To

In Reply To

In Reply To

In Reply To
Taking control back = allowing the Conservatives a free hand to ru(i)n the country as they see fit.


We get the government that we elect and not an unelected one in Brussels.


Isaac, What laws are currently better with our elected government then a European one or which ones are going to be better when we leave the EU. I'm stumped as I can't think of any.


Well perhaps you can explain what the point of this is http://www.nolgvbrokers.co.uk/eu-proposals-for-driver-cpc-amendments/

I work in the road haulage industry and all it's done is push up costs which inevitably get passed onto the consumer and create a chronic shortage of lorry drivers.

In case anybody doesn't know, this costs in the region of £500 per driver and does little if anything to improve safety. There's no test involved and it's not going to turn a bad driver into a good one.

Hopefully it'll be kicked into touch once we're out of the EU!


I think most decent employers would want to ensure their drivers are well trained, and the country would be better off without companies who wouldn't do it. A day of training a year is hardly a massive waste of money. The Freight Transport Association support CPCs and have said they wouldn't want it scrapped if Brexit happens, so it's unlikely you're going to get your wish.


Have you done the course? I have at my employers expense. I could have slept most of the way through it, others were playing with phones and gadgets. The only challenging thing about it is staying awake!

There is no test involved so how do you think it's going to improve driving standards?


(This post was edited by Isaac on Feb 9, 2018, 4:05 PM)


Isaac
Man City Transfer Target!

Feb 9, 2018, 3:47 PM

Posts: 9628
Location: Kent
Team(s): ABMU


Views: 4727
Re: [mip] EU Withdrawal Negotiations or Reply Privately


In Reply To

In Reply To

In Reply To

In Reply To

In Reply To
Taking control back = allowing the Conservatives a free hand to ru(i)n the country as they see fit.


We get the government that we elect and not an unelected one in Brussels.


Isaac, What laws are currently better with our elected government then a European one or which ones are going to be better when we leave the EU. I'm stumped as I can't think of any.


Well perhaps you can explain what the point of this is http://www.nolgvbrokers.co.uk/eu-proposals-for-driver-cpc-amendments/

I work in the road haulage industry and all it's done is push up costs which inevitably get passed onto the consumer and create a chronic shortage of lorry drivers.

In case anybody doesn't know, this costs in the region of £500 per driver and does little if anything to improve safety. There's no test involved and it's not going to turn a bad driver into a good one.

Hopefully it'll be kicked into touch once we're out of the EU!


You've actually read this?

The amendments is to make certain drivers actually attend different courses instead of sitting the same course multiple times, attend a road safety course and "The EC is obviously looking to add more specialised, in-depth modules to Driver CPC so that drivers can choose courses that are more focused to their current role.". So drivers should actually do courses that make them better to do whatever specialised job they do.

All seems quite sensible to me.

And to at all have a Driver CPC, you've ever seen the stats about road accidents involving lorrys?


The irony is that accidents have increased because of the number of Eastern European drivers coming over here as few Brits want the job anymore.

Some agency drivers have other jobs and do a bit of lorry driving now and again for some extra cash, do you really think they're going to pay £500? Of course they're not so it's fewer drivers more Eastern Europeans drafted in and more accidents, you really couldn't make it up.

Oh and I'm saying all Eastern Europeans are bad drivers, obviously if British drivers went over there they would be more likely to have an accident.


mip
Man City Transfer Target!


Feb 9, 2018, 4:31 PM

Posts: 9850
Location: Odense
Team(s): Portsmouth, OB, Svendborg fB, Tved B


Views: 4691
Re: [Isaac] EU Withdrawal Negotiations or Reply Privately


In Reply To

In Reply To

You've actually read this?

The amendments is to make certain drivers actually attend different courses instead of sitting the same course multiple times, attend a road safety course and "The EC is obviously looking to add more specialised, in-depth modules to Driver CPC so that drivers can choose courses that are more focused to their current role.". So drivers should actually do courses that make them better to do whatever specialised job they do.

All seems quite sensible to me.

And to at all have a Driver CPC, you've ever seen the stats about road accidents involving lorrys?


The irony is that accidents have increased because of the number of Eastern European drivers coming over here as few Brits want the job anymore.

Some agency drivers have other jobs and do a bit of lorry driving now and again for some extra cash, do you really think they're going to pay £500? Of course they're not so it's fewer drivers more Eastern Europeans drafted in and more accidents, you really couldn't make it up.

Oh and I'm saying all Eastern Europeans are bad drivers, obviously if British drivers went over there they would be more likely to have an accident.


Sorry, you lost me there. Isn't this an EU directive? So Eastern European drivers need a Driver CPC as well?


Isaac
Man City Transfer Target!

Feb 9, 2018, 5:37 PM

Posts: 9628
Location: Kent
Team(s): ABMU


Views: 4650
Re: [mip] EU Withdrawal Negotiations or Reply Privately


In Reply To

In Reply To

In Reply To

You've actually read this?

The amendments is to make certain drivers actually attend different courses instead of sitting the same course multiple times, attend a road safety course and "The EC is obviously looking to add more specialised, in-depth modules to Driver CPC so that drivers can choose courses that are more focused to their current role.". So drivers should actually do courses that make them better to do whatever specialised job they do.

All seems quite sensible to me.

And to at all have a Driver CPC, you've ever seen the stats about road accidents involving lorrys?


The irony is that accidents have increased because of the number of Eastern European drivers coming over here as few Brits want the job anymore.

Some agency drivers have other jobs and do a bit of lorry driving now and again for some extra cash, do you really think they're going to pay £500? Of course they're not so it's fewer drivers more Eastern Europeans drafted in and more accidents, you really couldn't make it up.

Oh and I'm saying all Eastern Europeans are bad drivers, obviously if British drivers went over there they would be more likely to have an accident.


Sorry, you lost me there. Isn't this an EU directive? So Eastern European drivers need a Driver CPC as well?



Of course they do, how have I lost you?


Towlawtom
Reserve Team Regular


Feb 9, 2018, 8:06 PM

Posts: 611
Location:
Team(s):


Views: 4565
Re: [Isaac] EU Withdrawal Negotiations or Reply Privately


In Reply To

In Reply To

In Reply To

In Reply To
Taking control back = allowing the Conservatives a free hand to ru(i)n the country as they see fit.


We get the government that we elect and not an unelected one in Brussels.


Isaac, What laws are currently better with our elected government then a European one or which ones are going to be better when we leave the EU. I'm stumped as I can't think of any.


Well perhaps you can explain what the point of this is http://www.nolgvbrokers.co.uk/eu-proposals-for-driver-cpc-amendments/

I work in the road haulage industry and all it's done is push up costs which inevitably get passed onto the consumer and create a chronic shortage of lorry drivers.

In case anybody doesn't know, this costs in the region of £500 per driver and does little if anything to improve safety. There's no test involved and it's not going to turn a bad driver into a good one.

Hopefully it'll be kicked into touch once we're out of the EU!


So the only UK law that is better than an EU law you can come up with is that, One on the face of it might compromise health & safety to save the penny pinching employer a few quid. Doesn't appear a waste of time to me. Anything else?



I need to have the last word, as it always looks as if I am right !


buncranaboy
Qatar World Cup bid member!


Feb 9, 2018, 8:11 PM

Posts: 17868
Location: South Birmingham
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Views: 4560
Re: [Isaac] EU Withdrawal Negotiations or Reply Privately

 

Oh and I'm saying all Eastern Europeans are bad drivers,.


Some unsurprising bias from Isaac there.........


Isaac
Man City Transfer Target!

Feb 11, 2018, 8:00 PM

Posts: 9628
Location: Kent
Team(s): ABMU


Views: 4320
Re: [Towlawtom] EU Withdrawal Negotiations or Reply Privately


In Reply To

In Reply To

In Reply To

In Reply To

In Reply To
Taking control back = allowing the Conservatives a free hand to ru(i)n the country as they see fit.


We get the government that we elect and not an unelected one in Brussels.


Isaac, What laws are currently better with our elected government then a European one or which ones are going to be better when we leave the EU. I'm stumped as I can't think of any.


Well perhaps you can explain what the point of this is http://www.nolgvbrokers.co.uk/eu-proposals-for-driver-cpc-amendments/

I work in the road haulage industry and all it's done is push up costs which inevitably get passed onto the consumer and create a chronic shortage of lorry drivers.

In case anybody doesn't know, this costs in the region of £500 per driver and does little if anything to improve safety. There's no test involved and it's not going to turn a bad driver into a good one.

Hopefully it'll be kicked into touch once we're out of the EU!


So the only UK law that is better than an EU law you can come up with is that, One on the face of it might compromise health & safety to save the penny pinching employer a few quid. Doesn't appear a waste of time to me. Anything else?



That's just one example.

Penny pinching employers? Don't you get it, any additional costs hauliers incur gets passed to the consumer.

Do explain, how scrapping it would compromise health and safety?



(This post was edited by Isaac on Feb 11, 2018, 8:06 PM)


Isaac
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Re: [buncranaboy] EU Withdrawal Negotiations or Reply Privately


In Reply To

Oh and I'm saying all Eastern Europeans are bad drivers,.


Some unsurprising bias from Isaac there.........


Yes well spotted, obviously I missed out the word NOT.

How very remiss of meBlush


HantsLondoner
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Feb 14, 2018, 12:00 PM

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Re: [Isaac] EU Withdrawal Negotiations or Reply Privately

Boris Johnson's speech today.....

Seemed to start well, correctly identifying three of the main problems anti-Brexiters have with Brexit:

- A geo-strategic concern that Britain is a relatively small nation that has made a mistake in choosing to leave such a major international alliance

- A spiritual and aesthetic concern; that people feel we have pulled up a drawbridge

- An economic fear that Britain will be worse off outside the EU

He then said that:
'pro-leave supporters must not leave behind those who want to remain'

So far so good.

Then as far as I could tell we had lots of woffle without any facts.
No change there.



If you're going to/been to a Hampshire Premier League match, I'd really appreciate you filling in a questionnaire - available in the Groundhopping/General section, or just PM me for a copy. Thanks.

(This post was edited by HantsLondoner on Feb 14, 2018, 12:01 PM)


colpic
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Re: [HantsLondoner] EU Withdrawal Negotiations or Reply Privately


In Reply To
Boris Johnson's speech today.....

Seemed to start well, correctly identifying three of the main problems anti-Brexiters have with Brexit:

- A geo-strategic concern that Britain is a relatively small nation that has made a mistake in choosing to leave such a major international alliance

- A spiritual and aesthetic concern; that people feel we have pulled up a drawbridge

- An economic fear that Britain will be worse off outside the EU

He then said that:
'pro-leave supporters must not leave behind those who want to remain'

So far so good.

Then as far as I could tell we had lots of woffle without any facts.
No change there.


Lots of waffle and hot air as usual. Another cynical attempt to position himself as the next Tory leader. And the dreaded 'Take back control' sound bite has appeared again, whatever it means!



Where's the 'ignore this poster' button?


windydcfc
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Re: [colpic] EU Withdrawal Negotiations or Reply Privately


In Reply To

In Reply To
Boris Johnson's speech today.....

Seemed to start well, correctly identifying three of the main problems anti-Brexiters have with Brexit:

- A geo-strategic concern that Britain is a relatively small nation that has made a mistake in choosing to leave such a major international alliance

- A spiritual and aesthetic concern; that people feel we have pulled up a drawbridge

- An economic fear that Britain will be worse off outside the EU

He then said that:
'pro-leave supporters must not leave behind those who want to remain'

So far so good.

Then as far as I could tell we had lots of woffle without any facts.
No change there.


Lots of waffle and hot air as usual. Another cynical attempt to position himself as the next Tory leader. And the dreaded 'Take back control' sound bite has appeared again, whatever it means!



The alternative appears to be the 19th Century parody of a politician, Jacob Rees-Mogg! Does anyone on this forum, actually believe he’s the answer to our countries problems?


hawkwind
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Re: [HantsLondoner] EU Withdrawal Negotiations or Reply Privately


In Reply To
Boris Johnson's speech today.....

Seemed to start well, correctly identifying three of the main problems anti-Brexiters have with Brexit:

- A geo-strategic concern that Britain is a relatively small nation that has made a mistake in choosing to leave such a major international alliance

- A spiritual and aesthetic concern; that people feel we have pulled up a drawbridge

- An economic fear that Britain will be worse off outside the EU

He then said that:
'pro-leave supporters must not leave behind those who want to remain'

So far so good.

Then as far as I could tell we had lots of woffle without any facts.
No change there.



The full text (published by the Spectator) is accompanied by a video of the whole speech which also contains media questions (from about 45 minutes).

If this speech had been made in August 2016 it might just have held some value but now?

How can anyone support a project that the British Government continues to refuse to define?

How can a Foreign Secretary have the front to talk about 'openness' when the British Government refuses to let British citizens see unredacted economic assessment papers?

Why does a Foreign Secretary believe that Ireland deserves no mention whatsoever in a speech of this supposed importance?

If the British Government and Foreign Secretary really believed that Brexit could be positive for this country then why have they failed to publish a plan, and why would they be so afraid to hold a referendum on that plan?

(This post was edited by hawkwind on Feb 14, 2018, 6:58 PM)


HantsLondoner
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Re: [hawkwind] EU Withdrawal Negotiations or Reply Privately

How can anyone support a project that the British Government continues to refuse to define?

How can a Foreign Secretary have the front to talk about 'openness' when the British Government refuses to let British citizens see unredacted economic assessment papers?

Why does a Foreign Secretary believe that Ireland deserves no mention whatsoever in a speech of this supposed importance?

If the British Government and Foreign Secretary really believed that Brexit could be positive for this country then why have they failed to publish a plan, and why would they be so afraid to hold a referendum on that plan?

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Shame the press didn't ask these four questions.

Did Johnson's speech do anything to make me feel wanted? To feel included? To reassure me that the government has everything in hand?

Cool

Did Johnson's speech make me feel like he's a Prime Minister in waiting?

CoolCool

How did I feel after his speech?

Mad

Like someone who has mugged me coming back afterwards and telling me I have to forget about it and that we have to work together for the good of the country.




If you're going to/been to a Hampshire Premier League match, I'd really appreciate you filling in a questionnaire - available in the Groundhopping/General section, or just PM me for a copy. Thanks.

(This post was edited by HantsLondoner on Feb 14, 2018, 9:32 PM)


Climate Change
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Re: [colpic] EU Withdrawal Negotiations or Reply Privately


In Reply To

In Reply To
Boris Johnson
Lots of waffle and hot air as usual.


Must have an account on here..........



I don't need Google. I have a Hoddy.


garethwrexy
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Re: [hawkwind] EU Withdrawal Negotiations or Reply Privately

I will be fuming if second referendum reversed the original result, bloody project fear Mad



wrexham fc fa trophy winners 2013 !


Isaac
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Re: [garethwrexy] EU Withdrawal Negotiations or Reply Privately


In Reply To
I will be fuming if second referendum reversed the original result, bloody project fear Mad


No chance Cool


jrev61
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Re: [Isaac] EU Withdrawal Negotiations or Reply Privately


In Reply To

In Reply To
I will be fuming if second referendum reversed the original result, bloody project fear Mad


No chance Cool


It won't necessarily need a referendum, a vote in the House of Commons will have the same effect.



jrev61


PaulC
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Re: [garethwrexy] EU Withdrawal Negotiations or Reply Privately


In Reply To
I will be fuming if second referendum reversed the original result, bloody project fear Mad

How dare the British electorate change its mind?


Isaac
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Re: [PaulC] EU Withdrawal Negotiations or Reply Privately


In Reply To

In Reply To
I will be fuming if second referendum reversed the original result, bloody project fear Mad

How dare the British electorate change its mind?


So what do you suggest? A rerun after every general election just in case the electorate have changed their minds?

Of course there is no evidence that anybody has changed their mind but keep clutching at those straws!


PaulC
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Re: [Isaac] EU Withdrawal Negotiations or Reply Privately


In Reply To

In Reply To

In Reply To
I will be fuming if second referendum reversed the original result, bloody project fear Mad

How dare the British electorate change its mind?


So what do you suggest? A rerun after every general election just in case the electorate have changed their minds?

Of course there is no evidence that anybody has changed their mind but keep clutching at those straws!


We do have reruns of elections. If we vote Tory/DUP in 2016 it doesn’t mean we can’t change our mind within the next few years.

There is plenty of evidence that people have changed their minds. I’ve posted it here. You are in denial.

But if you are so confident thst nothing has changed why not support a referendum to rubber stamp the final deal?
Fact is, the Beleavers know they are now a minority


Isaac
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Re: [PaulC] EU Withdrawal Negotiations or Reply Privately


In Reply To

In Reply To

In Reply To

In Reply To
I will be fuming if second referendum reversed the original result, bloody project fear Mad

How dare the British electorate change its mind?


So what do you suggest? A rerun after every general election just in case the electorate have changed their minds?

Of course there is no evidence that anybody has changed their mind but keep clutching at those straws!


We do have reruns of elections. If we vote Tory/DUP in 2016 it doesn’t mean we can’t change our mind within the next few years.

There is plenty of evidence that people have changed their minds. I’ve posted it here. You are in denial.

But if you are so confident thst nothing has changed why not support a referendum to rubber stamp the final deal?
Fact is, the Beleavers know they are now a minority


Err, you're the one in denial unable to accept the democratic result.


Richard Rundle
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Re: [Isaac] EU Withdrawal Negotiations or Reply Privately


In Reply To
So what do you suggest? A rerun after every general election just in case the electorate have changed their minds?


Of course. We have them every five years at maximum and that regularly tests if the electorate have changed their minds.


Isaac
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Re: [Richard Rundle] EU Withdrawal Negotiations or Reply Privately


In Reply To

In Reply To
So what do you suggest? A rerun after every general election just in case the electorate have changed their minds?


Of course. We have them every five years at maximum and that regularly tests if the electorate have changed their minds.


Yes, you don't normally have people calling for another election after 18 months or so!


PaulC
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Re: [Isaac] EU Withdrawal Negotiations or Reply Privately


In Reply To

In Reply To

In Reply To
So what do you suggest? A rerun after every general election just in case the electorate have changed their minds?


Of course. We have them every five years at maximum and that regularly tests if the electorate have changed their minds.


Yes, you don't normally have people calling for another election after 18 months or so!


Except that is precisely what has happened because of Brexit.

Exceptional times call for exceptional measures.


PaulC
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Re: [Isaac] EU Withdrawal Negotiations or Reply Privately

The electorate has changed its mind.


Isaac
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Re: [PaulC] EU Withdrawal Negotiations or Reply Privately


In Reply To
The electorate has changed its mind.


Says you!


Climate Change
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Feb 16, 2018, 7:40 PM

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Re: [Isaac] EU Withdrawal Negotiations or Reply Privately


In Reply To

In Reply To
The electorate has changed its mind.


Says you!


Don't rise to him Isaac.........he is the last bastion of Communism.



I don't need Google. I have a Hoddy.


PaulC
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Re: [Isaac] EU Withdrawal Negotiations or Reply Privately


In Reply To

In Reply To
The electorate has changed its mind.


Says you!


Say all the polls.


Isaac
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Re: [PaulC] EU Withdrawal Negotiations or Reply Privately


In Reply To

In Reply To

In Reply To
The electorate has changed its mind.


Says you!


Say all the polls.


What polls?

As I mentioned previously, the referendum was too close to call, polls were irrelevant but now they miraculously show the electorate have changed their minds? This is nothing more than wishful thinking on your part.


Tykeoldboy
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Re: [Isaac] EU Withdrawal Negotiations or Reply Privately

Nigel Farage is on Question Time next week so everything will be sorted out next Thursday evening.


jrev61
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Re: [Tykeoldboy] EU Withdrawal Negotiations or Reply Privately

Nobody needs to have changed their minds, many of the 'leave' voters are now dead or too senile to vote and will be replaced by new,young voters who would mostly vote 'remain'if they had the chance.



jrev61


Towlawtom
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Feb 17, 2018, 7:23 AM

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Re: [jrev61] EU Withdrawal Negotiations or Reply Privately


In Reply To
Nobody needs to have changed their minds, many of the 'leave' voters are now dead or too senile to vote and will be replaced by new,young voters who would mostly vote 'remain'if they had the chance.


This is bang on. Many of the Leave voters were selfish old fuddy duddies where the importance of the decision just didn't affect them in any way. They were brainwashed in wanting to get their country back and thought leaving would mean more money for the Nhs even though most of them had got their moneys worth.not to mention all the johnny foreigners who they thought were nicking all the jobs.Even though they no longer needed to work . They didn't think of the impact this would Leave on the younger generation who they badly let down



I need to have the last word, as it always looks as if I am right !


Isaac
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Re: [Towlawtom] EU Withdrawal Negotiations or Reply Privately


In Reply To

In Reply To
Nobody needs to have changed their minds, many of the 'leave' voters are now dead or too senile to vote and will be replaced by new,young voters who would mostly vote 'remain'if they had the chance.


This is bang on. Many of the Leave voters were selfish old fuddy duddies where the importance of the decision just didn't affect them in any way. They were brainwashed in wanting to get their country back and thought leaving would mean more money for the Nhs even though most of them had got their moneys worth.not to mention all the johnny foreigners who they thought were nicking all the jobs.Even though they no longer needed to work . They didn't think of the impact this would Leave on the younger generation who they badly let down


What utter tosh, just more whinging from bitter remoaners who didn't the outcome they wanted. Absolutely pathetic!


HantsLondoner
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Feb 17, 2018, 9:38 AM

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Re: [jrev61] EU Withdrawal Negotiations or Reply Privately


In Reply To
Nobody needs to have changed their minds, many of the 'leave' voters are now dead or too senile to vote and will be replaced by new,young voters who would mostly vote 'remain'if they had the chance.



The referendum was only just over 18 months ago! I'd be surprised if 4% of the electorate have either died or gone into senility in that time.

As for the young, as I've said before, unless they see any chance of political representation soon, either from a party supporting their stance on the EU, or from Labour (or both?!) then I think there is a danger that they may drift back into apathy again. The momentum (small 'm') will only last for so long,




If you're going to/been to a Hampshire Premier League match, I'd really appreciate you filling in a questionnaire - available in the Groundhopping/General section, or just PM me for a copy. Thanks.

(This post was edited by HantsLondoner on Feb 17, 2018, 9:41 AM)


Towlawtom
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Re: [Isaac] EU Withdrawal Negotiations or Reply Privately

And no Doubt the brexiteers and Farage would have just gone underground and disappeared for the next few years if vote went other way. I cant think of one positive thing or one better law that will come in when we Leave the Eu. Even the staunch Brexit loving Daily Fail has only come up with so far that we will get are old style passports back again. This seemed to warrant a triumphalist front page spread headline from them..Think Nick Cleggs only decent idea in his political career was that the under 30s vote should have counted double as the decision affects them more than a bigotted 80 year old Racist Fuddy Duddy.



I need to have the last word, as it always looks as if I am right !


garethwrexy
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Re: [Towlawtom] EU Withdrawal Negotiations or Reply Privately

I think our prime minister will get good deal



wrexham fc fa trophy winners 2013 !


windydcfc
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Re: [garethwrexy] EU Withdrawal Negotiations or Reply Privately


In Reply To
I think our prime minister will get good deal



Really!!! For who????


Towlawtom
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Feb 17, 2018, 12:39 PM

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Re: [garethwrexy] EU Withdrawal Negotiations or Reply Privately

And what will that be?. To Keep our ehic cards with full benefits, our free mobile Eu roaming charges.. Our rights to work in the fellow Eu nations and Maintain our national minimum wage back home. Something we already had prior to brexit. Sorry am I missing something here?



I need to have the last word, as it always looks as if I am right !


Towlawtom
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Feb 17, 2018, 12:43 PM

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Re: [windydcfc] EU Withdrawal Negotiations or Reply Privately


In Reply To

In Reply To
I think our prime minister will get good deal



Really!!! For who????


For the Rich and the bosses who will be able to screw their employees even further. Get rid of all Eu red tape that protects workers rights. You know it makes sense.



I need to have the last word, as it always looks as if I am right !


garethwrexy
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Re: [windydcfc] EU Withdrawal Negotiations or Reply Privately

It will be deal that suit everyone



wrexham fc fa trophy winners 2013 !


leohoenig
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Feb 17, 2018, 3:34 PM

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Re: [garethwrexy] EU Withdrawal Negotiations or Reply Privately


In Reply To
It will be deal that suit everyone


I very much doubt if the deal will suit anyone. With so many vested interests wanting different things, this is inevitable.

May is looking for the path of least resistance, while half her cabinet are looking to who her successor will be, with the intention of changing PM between the conclusion of Brexit and the next election



Fat AND Pompous.
The proof that you can have too much of a good thing
Now blogging at http://www.leohoenig.com



garethwrexy
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Re: [leohoenig] EU Withdrawal Negotiations or Reply Privately

Wait and see



wrexham fc fa trophy winners 2013 !


HantsLondoner
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Feb 17, 2018, 5:46 PM

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Re: [garethwrexy] EU Withdrawal Negotiations or Reply Privately

Sorry Gareth - we can't afford to 'wait and see' if the incompetents that are negotiating Brexit can sort out any sort of deal and keep us out of a complete mess, while the incompetents that are running the government continue to waste their time on Brexit and their own internal in-fighting, and forget all the other problems in the country at the moment.

That they can do so relatively unchallenged shows the level of opposition that we currently have, sadly.



If you're going to/been to a Hampshire Premier League match, I'd really appreciate you filling in a questionnaire - available in the Groundhopping/General section, or just PM me for a copy. Thanks.

(This post was edited by HantsLondoner on Feb 17, 2018, 5:48 PM)


Isaac
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Re: [Towlawtom] EU Withdrawal Negotiations or Reply Privately


In Reply To
And no Doubt the brexiteers and Farage would have just gone underground and disappeared for the next few years if vote went other way. I cant think of one positive thing or one better law that will come in when we Leave the Eu. Even the staunch Brexit loving Daily Fail has only come up with so far that we will get are old style passports back again. This seemed to warrant a triumphalist front page spread headline from them..Think Nick Cleggs only decent idea in his political career was that the under 30s vote should have counted double as the decision affects them more than a bigotted 80 year old Racist Fuddy Duddy.


Showing your true colours now, what a bitter individual you are!


Towlawtom
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Feb 17, 2018, 11:25 PM

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Re: [Isaac] EU Withdrawal Negotiations or Reply Privately


In Reply To

In Reply To
And no Doubt the brexiteers and Farage would have just gone underground and disappeared for the next few years if vote went other way. I cant think of one positive thing or one better law that will come in when we Leave the Eu. Even the staunch Brexit loving Daily Fail has only come up with so far that we will get are old style passports back again. This seemed to warrant a triumphalist front page spread headline from them..Think Nick Cleggs only decent idea in his political career was that the under 30s vote should have counted double as the decision affects them more than a bigotted 80 year old Racist Fuddy Duddy.


Showing your true colours now, what a bitter individual you are!


So when are you going to tell us about the benefits of leaving Eu Isaac. I think we are all still waiting for an answer



I need to have the last word, as it always looks as if I am right !


Isaac
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Re: [Isaac] EU Withdrawal Negotiations or Reply Privately


In Reply To

In Reply To

In Reply To

In Reply To

In Reply To

In Reply To
Taking control back = allowing the Conservatives a free hand to ru(i)n the country as they see fit.


We get the government that we elect and not an unelected one in Brussels.


Isaac, What laws are currently better with our elected government then a European one or which ones are going to be better when we leave the EU. I'm stumped as I can't think of any.


Well perhaps you can explain what the point of this is http://www.nolgvbrokers.co.uk/eu-proposals-for-driver-cpc-amendments/

I work in the road haulage industry and all it's done is push up costs which inevitably get passed onto the consumer and create a chronic shortage of lorry drivers.

In case anybody doesn't know, this costs in the region of £500 per driver and does little if anything to improve safety. There's no test involved and it's not going to turn a bad driver into a good one.

Hopefully it'll be kicked into touch once we're out of the EU!


So the only UK law that is better than an EU law you can come up with is that, One on the face of it might compromise health & safety to save the penny pinching employer a few quid. Doesn't appear a waste of time to me. Anything else?



That's just one example.

Penny pinching employers? Don't you get it, any additional costs hauliers incur gets passed to the consumer.

Do explain, how scrapping it would compromise health and safety?



Who is 'we all'? Don't try claiming you speak for anybody other than yourself.

And I'm still waiting for you to explain the above.


jrev61
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Feb 18, 2018, 9:59 AM

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Re: [Isaac] EU Withdrawal Negotiations or Reply Privately


In Reply To

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Taking control back = allowing the Conservatives a free hand to ru(i)n the country as they see fit.


We get the government that we elect and not an unelected one in Brussels.


Isaac, What laws are currently better with our elected government then a European one or which ones are going to be better when we leave the EU. I'm stumped as I can't think of any.


Well perhaps you can explain what the point of this is http://www.nolgvbrokers.co.uk/eu-proposals-for-driver-cpc-amendments/

I work in the road haulage industry and all it's done is push up costs which inevitably get passed onto the consumer and create a chronic shortage of lorry drivers.

In case anybody doesn't know, this costs in the region of £500 per driver and does little if anything to improve safety. There's no test involved and it's not going to turn a bad driver into a good one.

Hopefully it'll be kicked into touch once we're out of the EU!


So the only UK law that is better than an EU law you can come up with is that, One on the face of it might compromise health & safety to save the penny pinching employer a few quid. Doesn't appear a waste of time to me. Anything else?



That's just one example.

Penny pinching employers? Don't you get it, any additional costs hauliers incur gets passed to the consumer.

Do explain, how scrapping it would compromise health and safety?



Who is 'we all'? Don't try claiming you speak for anybody other than yourself.

And I'm still waiting for you to explain the above.


Have you finally gone mad Isaac, arguing with yourself, and in bold letters too!



jrev61


Isaac
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Feb 18, 2018, 10:24 AM

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Re: [jrev61] EU Withdrawal Negotiations or Reply Privately


In Reply To

In Reply To

In Reply To

In Reply To

In Reply To

In Reply To

In Reply To

In Reply To
Taking control back = allowing the Conservatives a free hand to ru(i)n the country as they see fit.


We get the government that we elect and not an unelected one in Brussels.


Isaac, What laws are currently better with our elected government then a European one or which ones are going to be better when we leave the EU. I'm stumped as I can't think of any.


Well perhaps you can explain what the point of this is http://www.nolgvbrokers.co.uk/eu-proposals-for-driver-cpc-amendments/

I work in the road haulage industry and all it's done is push up costs which inevitably get passed onto the consumer and create a chronic shortage of lorry drivers.

In case anybody doesn't know, this costs in the region of £500 per driver and does little if anything to improve safety. There's no test involved and it's not going to turn a bad driver into a good one.

Hopefully it'll be kicked into touch once we're out of the EU!


So the only UK law that is better than an EU law you can come up with is that, One on the face of it might compromise health & safety to save the penny pinching employer a few quid. Doesn't appear a waste of time to me. Anything else?



That's just one example.

Penny pinching employers? Don't you get it, any additional costs hauliers incur gets passed to the consumer.

Do explain, how scrapping it would compromise health and safety?



Who is 'we all'? Don't try claiming you speak for anybody other than yourself.

And I'm still waiting for you to explain the above.


Have you finally gone mad Isaac, arguing with yourself, and in bold letters too!



Quite obviously the question was addressed to the gentleman from Tow Law!

I didn't select bold text it just came out that way.

Clearly it's you that has lost the plot, democracy is fine all the time it suits you eh? And trying to suggest that the majority of people in this country are senile just shows that you really are scraping the barrel in your desperation.


(This post was edited by Isaac on Feb 18, 2018, 10:26 AM)


PaulC
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Re: [Isaac] EU Withdrawal Negotiations or Reply Privately

A bit like claiming there is no evidence the electorate has changed its mind on Brexit.


philmitchell
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Feb 18, 2018, 11:54 AM

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Re: [Towlawtom] EU Withdrawal Negotiations or Reply Privately


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In Reply To
Nobody needs to have changed their minds, many of the 'leave' voters are now dead or too senile to vote and will be replaced by new,young voters who would mostly vote 'remain'if they had the chance.


This is bang on. Many of the Leave voters were selfish old fuddy duddies where the importance of the decision just didn't affect them in any way. They were brainwashed in wanting to get their country back and thought leaving would mean more money for the Nhs even though most of them had got their moneys worth.not to mention all the johnny foreigners who they thought were nicking all the jobs.Even though they no longer needed to work . They didn't think of the impact this would Leave on the younger generation who they badly let down


Stereotypical response from one of the 'educated' Remain party
Give it a rest.


Isaac
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Re: [PaulC] EU Withdrawal Negotiations or Reply Privately


In Reply To
A bit like claiming there is no evidence the electorate has changed its mind on Brexit.


So where is it? A dubious poll in the Independent is all you've come up so far.


jrev61
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Re: [Isaac] EU Withdrawal Negotiations or Reply Privately

 






Quite obviously the question was addressed to the gentleman from Tow Law!

I didn't select bold text it just came out that way.

Clearly it's you that has lost the plot, democracy is fine all the time it suits you eh? And trying to suggest that the majority of people in this country are senile just shows that you really are scraping the barrel in your desperation.


I take your point about the bold type as my reply was the same.
However I did not say that the majority of people in this country are senile. Only that some of those elderly people that voted 'leave' are now too senile to vote.
I wouldn't say democracy is fine when it suits me either. I am rapidly losing faith in democracy. It means allowing uneducated people to decide the future of their betters and gives us unpleasant results like Trump and Brexit. Maybe an intelligence test should be required before people are allowed to vote!



jrev61


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Feb 18, 2018, 3:04 PM

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Re: [jrev61] EU Withdrawal Negotiations or Reply Privately


In Reply To


. Maybe an intelligence test should be required before people are allowed to vote!


What makes you think you will pass?



I don't need Google. I have a Hoddy.


PaulC
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Re: [Isaac] EU Withdrawal Negotiations or Reply Privately


In Reply To

In Reply To
A bit like claiming there is no evidence the electorate has changed its mind on Brexit.


So where is it? A dubious poll in the Independent is all you've come up so far.


A dubious poll. LOL! You're in total denial.

http://nonleaguematters.co.uk/...i?post=853220#853220

Since I posted that there is yet more poll evidence the people of Britain have changed their mind.

That's why Believers like you are terrified of the people having a say on the final deal. You know you are in the minority now.


(This post was edited by PaulC on Feb 18, 2018, 3:30 PM)


Isaac
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Re: [PaulC] EU Withdrawal Negotiations or Reply Privately


In Reply To

In Reply To

In Reply To
A bit like claiming there is no evidence the electorate has changed its mind on Brexit.


So where is it? A dubious poll in the Independent is all you've come up so far.


A dubious poll. LOL! You're in total denial.

http://nonleaguematters.co.uk/...i?post=853220#853220

Since I posted that there is yet more poll evidence the people of Britain have changed their mind.

That's why Believers like you are terrified of the people having a say on the final deal. You know you are in the minority now.


This really isn't getting anywhere is it?

Clearly you are the one in denial, unable to accept the outcome of a democratic referendum.


buncranaboy
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Re: [Isaac] EU Withdrawal Negotiations or Reply Privately

Haven't you said the same thing about fifty times now ?

What do the good folk on Police Camera Action have to say about it ?


PaulC
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Re: [Isaac] EU Withdrawal Negotiations or Reply Privately


In Reply To

In Reply To

In Reply To

In Reply To
A bit like claiming there is no evidence the electorate has changed its mind on Brexit.


So where is it? A dubious poll in the Independent is all you've come up so far.


A dubious poll. LOL! You're in total denial.

http://nonleaguematters.co.uk/...i?post=853220#853220

Since I posted that there is yet more poll evidence the people of Britain have changed their mind.

That's why Believers like you are terrified of the people having a say on the final deal. You know you are in the minority now.


This really isn't getting anywhere is it?

Clearly you are the one in denial, unable to accept the outcome of a democratic referendum.


It has certainly cleared up your error in thinking only one poll is being referred to.

Since all the indications are that the electorate has had a change of mind I am very much in favour of a democratic referendum when people actually know what is being offered to them.

I fully understand why you aren't.

You fear democracy.


(This post was edited by PaulC on Feb 18, 2018, 6:15 PM)


Isaac
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Re: [buncranaboy] EU Withdrawal Negotiations or Reply Privately


In Reply To
Haven't you said the same thing about fifty times now ?

What do the good folk on Police Camera Action have to say about it ?


Quite possibly yes, we are rather going round in circles here.

Basically he wants another referendum because the first one didn't produce the outcome that he wanted, perhaps somebody could explain to him that isn't how it works, goodness knows I've tried!Crazy


steve walker
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Re: [Isaac] EU Withdrawal Negotiations or Reply Privately

Guys you need to discuss what is being posted and not the person posting it please. It's not so nice reading some of the posts in this thread.
My own personal view is that the majority voted to leave in the referendum, we know that but why should that mean that the 48% who voted remain have to shut up for fear of being accused of being undemocratic? If the Tories win an election everyone that voted Labour has to accept it and keep quiet? Of course not.
Once we know the terms on which we will be leaving the EU I cannot see what is the problem with the people deciding if they accept those terms or not. It's not a re-run of the first referendum it's a completely different issue. Since everyone seems to agree that we must uphold democracy and both sides are confident they have the support of the majority I don't see why either side would have a problem with that.


PaulC
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Re: [Isaac] EU Withdrawal Negotiations or Reply Privately


In Reply To

In Reply To
Haven't you said the same thing about fifty times now ?

What do the good folk on Police Camera Action have to say about it ?


Quite possibly yes, we are rather going round in circles here.

Basically he wants another referendum because the first one didn't produce the outcome that he wanted, perhaps somebody could explain to him that isn't how it works, goodness knows I've tried!Crazy


Democracy didn’t end in 2016.

Why should the people of the UK not be allowed a democratic say on the deal negotiated by the Tories? Why should they not be allowed to conclude that persisting in following a path which would be disastrous for the UK is madness?

Because they might not agree with you?

That isn’t democracy.

If we had to choose between the ill-informed past and the informed present, I know what I would choose.


sjj2112
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Re: [PaulC] EU Withdrawal Negotiations or Reply Privately

Wasn't there a referendum in 1975 which finished more than 2 to 1 in favour of remain?

Did the leavers "accept the will of the people and get over it?"

Or did they spend the next forty years campaigning to leave, forming a one policy party political party in the process?

If the, much bigger, losers in 1975 never got over it, why should they expect the narrow losers this time to do so?



I'm a man of many anoraks.....


jrev61
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Re: [Climate Change] EU Withdrawal Negotiations or Reply Privately


In Reply To

In Reply To


. Maybe an intelligence test should be required before people are allowed to vote!


What makes you think you will pass?


Because I'm brilliant at general knowledge unless it involves anything to do with films or technology!



jrev61


UKPunk
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Re: [leohoenig] EU Withdrawal Negotiations or Reply Privately


In Reply To

In Reply To
May is looking for the path of least resistance...

And I've found it. Sly

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fo6nVu99MYA



1-0-1-0-4-25-40-65-181-289=606

Last game: Mon 20/8/18
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Towlawtom
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Re: [steve walker] EU Withdrawal Negotiations or Reply Privately


In Reply To
Guys you need to discuss what is being posted and not the person posting it please. It's not so nice reading some of the posts in this thread.
My own personal view is that the majority voted to leave in the referendum, we know that but why should that mean that the 48% who voted remain have to shut up for fear of being accused of being undemocratic? If the Tories win an election everyone that voted Labour has to accept it and keep quiet? Of course not.
Once we know the terms on which we will be leaving the EU I cannot see what is the problem with the people deciding if they accept those terms or not. It's not a re-run of the first referendum it's a completely different issue. Since everyone seems to agree that we must uphold democracy and both sides are confident they have the support of the majority I don't see why either side would have a problem with that.


I agree to a point on this, but we have 2 regular posters who on this thread and the Henry Bolton thread that state that Brexit is the best thing since sliced bread but they wont tell you Why. All we get from one is that if we don't like it we know where the tunnel is but We would like to know Why they like it which we are never told. On the Henry Bolton thread one poster states he will fight tooth and nail to Keep Brexit but cant explain Why he will.



I need to have the last word, as it always looks as if I am right !


Tykeoldboy
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Re: [steve walker] EU Withdrawal Negotiations or Reply Privately


In Reply To
Guys you need to discuss what is being posted and not the person posting it please. It's not so nice reading some of the posts in this thread.
My own personal view is that the majority voted to leave in the referendum, we know that but why should that mean that the 48% who voted remain have to shut up for fear of being accused of being undemocratic? If the Tories win an election everyone that voted Labour has to accept it and keep quiet? Of course not.
Once we know the terms on which we will be leaving the EU I cannot see what is the problem with the people deciding if they accept those terms or not. It's not a re-run of the first referendum it's a completely different issue. Since everyone seems to agree that we must uphold democracy and both sides are confident they have the support of the majority I don't see why either side would have a problem with that.


Just like a union vote back in the day. You voted whether to accept the original offer then after industrial action you voted again on the revised offer.

The referendum vote was Remain or Leave and once the negotiations have been completed the public will know what they are getting. If that is, no freedom of movement, huge tariffs on goods, expensive phone roaming charges, job losses, to name a few then would the remainers still accept the original result?


Isaac
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Re: [Towlawtom] EU Withdrawal Negotiations or Reply Privately


In Reply To

In Reply To
Guys you need to discuss what is being posted and not the person posting it please. It's not so nice reading some of the posts in this thread.
My own personal view is that the majority voted to leave in the referendum, we know that but why should that mean that the 48% who voted remain have to shut up for fear of being accused of being undemocratic? If the Tories win an election everyone that voted Labour has to accept it and keep quiet? Of course not.
Once we know the terms on which we will be leaving the EU I cannot see what is the problem with the people deciding if they accept those terms or not. It's not a re-run of the first referendum it's a completely different issue. Since everyone seems to agree that we must uphold democracy and both sides are confident they have the support of the majority I don't see why either side would have a problem with that.


I agree to a point on this, but we have 2 regular posters who on this thread and the Henry Bolton thread that state that Brexit is the best thing since sliced bread but they wont tell you Why. All we get from one is that if we don't like it we know where the tunnel is but We would like to know Why they like it which we are never told. On the Henry Bolton thread one poster states he will fight tooth and nail to Keep Brexit but cant explain Why he will.


And I'm still waiting for you to explain this:

the only UK law that is better than an EU law you can come up with is that, One on the face of it might compromise health & safety to save the penny pinching employer a few quid. Doesn't appear a waste of time to me. Anything else?



How exactly might scraping it compromise health & safety?


(This post was