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5 substitutions

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temprise
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May 28, 2012, 8:57 AM

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5 substitutions	Can't Post or Reply Privately

Heard at the weekend that the F.A. are going to allow 5 substitutions for games in adult football from step 7 downwards. Was also told that these substitutions could be 'rolling' as in pre season friendlies. Apparantly its to try and help player retention and therefore trying to stop clubs from folding due to players quitting.

Can anyone back this up or have any further info on it?

Opinions please.

burrow
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May 28, 2012, 9:42 AM

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Re: [temprise] 5 substitutions [In reply to]	Can't Post or Reply Privately

There is an article in the Guardian about this but doesn't go into it a lot more than you have done.

I think it doesn't really matter how many subs you have but I don't like the idea of bringing them on in the last part of the game just to waste time and I think that should be stopped. A rule saying no more subs after a certain time has elapsed would perhaps cut that out.

All these different languages the world over yet there is only one when you laugh or cry. burrow

PaulC
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May 28, 2012, 9:47 AM

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Re: [burrow] 5 substitutions [In reply to]	Can't Post or Reply Privately

In Reply To

I think it doesn't really matter how many subs you have but I don't like the idea of bringing them on in the last part of the game just to waste time and I think that should be stopped. A rule saying no more subs after a certain time has elapsed would perhaps cut that out.

In Reply To

I have never understood why it is necessary to stop matches for a substitution when there is a 4th official. Surely the 4th official can be trusted to manage the substitution on his own, whilst the match continues.

Part-Timer
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May 28, 2012, 9:52 AM

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Re: [temprise] 5 substitutions [In reply to]	Can't Post or Reply Privately

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Not quite right. Leagues below Step 7 have the option of applying to the FA to use rolling substitutions. Those that do will be able to determine how many of the named substitutes can be used.

HarryC
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May 28, 2012, 10:03 AM

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Re: [PaulC] 5 substitutions [In reply to]	Can't Post or

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Someone is spoilt with too much premiership or TV football, normally no 4th official, below conference, in non league football, certainly not down to step 7 where rolling subs may be trialed

petermiller36
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May 28, 2012, 10:39 AM

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Re: [HarryC] 5 substitutions [In reply to]	Can't Post or Reply Privately

Yeah I have heard that this is going to be introduced. I heard about this through the church league that I play in. At that level, it will certainly help with player retention. I think we (the West Mids Christian Football League) will be giving it a go.

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Richard Rundle
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May 28, 2012, 10:46 AM

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Re: [petermiller36] 5 substitutions [In reply to]	Can't Post or Reply Privately

I believe that both the Amateur Football Combination and the Trelawny League have been asked by the FA to be trial leagues. There is certainly a body of opinion amongst some of the Trelawny League people against it, but it will go to a vote at the AGM to see if they adopt it.

PaulC
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May 28, 2012, 11:34 AM

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Re: [HarryC] 5 substitutions [In reply to]	Can't Post or Reply Privately

Erm that's why I specified "in matches with a 4th official"!

leohoenig
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May 28, 2012, 12:26 PM

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Re: [Richard Rundle] 5 substitutions [In reply to]	Can't Post or Reply Privately

It was mentioned to me by a West Riding Official. He seemed to think it might occur in the West Riding Amateur League. It was discussed by IFAB, I believe although FIFA have said little about it. Why it needs IFAB approval is uncertain to me, unless those leagues I already know use it are doing so under FIFA approval as a trial. I understand it is in use in lower leagues (not certain how low) in Sweden, and some or all leagues below the CFA2 in France. It also applied in Monaco. There may be a rule forbidding players returning to the play after the 80th minute. A player who has not appeared is still allowed to be used as sub - this was the case in Monaco.
The last French match I went to with this still limited the bench to three players, and in both France/Monaco changes were only permitted when the ball was out of play.

I do not know what levels of open age football will have this rule, nor whether is going to be forced on the leagues, or optional. The impression I got was that it was mainly for youth teams

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Part-Timer
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May 28, 2012, 12:48 PM

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Re: [leohoenig] 5 substitutions [In reply to]	Can't Post or Reply Privately

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It was discussed by IFAB, I believe although FIFA have said little about it. Why it needs IFAB approval is uncertain to me, unless those leagues I already know use it are doing so under FIFA approval as a trial.

The Laws of the Game specifically forbid players who have been replaced from returning to the game. Leagues, other than for under 16s, women or veterans, that are doing this are in breach of FIFA's rules. Any change to the Laws has to go through IFAB. They have approved it for 'recreational' football only and the FA has decided that in this country that is anything below Step 7. Any leagues from Step 8 downwards can apply to the FA for permission to amend their substitution rules. It seems likely that many will do so and also that rules between leagues are likely to differ (number of substitutes than can be named, number that can be used, total number of substitutions alowed if roll on roll off is in operation, etc).

Richard Rundle
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May 28, 2012, 12:51 PM

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Re: [Part-Timer] 5 substitutions [In reply to]	Can't Post or Reply Privately

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And then we have chaos when two teams from different leagues (one of which adopts the trial and the other one doesn't) meet in cup competitions!

pitch 63
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May 28, 2012, 12:52 PM

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Re: [leohoenig] 5 substitutions [In reply to]	Can't Post or Reply Privately

The Gloucestershire FA has introduced repeat [not rolling] substitutions for all of its cup competitions and in all youth football. Adult leagues in the county are also adopting it, but not universally. Using the word repeat rather than rolling is in my view nothing more than a name change.

temprise
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May 28, 2012, 12:55 PM

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Re: [Richard Rundle] 5 substitutions [In reply to]	Can't Post or Reply Privately

It could be good to be able to make 5 substitutions but each substitution should be final IMO. 'Rolling' subs is the crazy idea for me.

jon b
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May 28, 2012, 1:40 PM

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Re: [PaulC] 5 substitutions [In reply to]	Can't Post or Reply Privately

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When I watch an ice hockey match I find it amusing to see the "outfield" players being replaced while play carries on around them. And, of course, it's really funny if too many are on the ice at the same time and they get penalised for it. Cool

cope1
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May 28, 2012, 6:59 PM

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Re: [temprise] 5 substitutions [In reply to]	Can't Post or Reply Privately

The option is there for any league from step 7 down allow repeat substitutions (commonly known as rolling subs). The number of subs is another matter - if the SAL does it we will continue to allow a maximum of 3 subs.

Those leagues participating will be required to return a fair amount of data about changes made including, I believe, when they are made etc etc.

Leagues can trial it their entire competition or just certain divisions if they prefer. The AFC's proposal is for all divisions. The SAL are proposing junior and minor divisions only.

I don't personally think it's a good idea at this particular time because it's being rushed through. Very little thought has been given to the admin side or the effect on match officials. Given that for most of the games affected it is far from guaranteed that there will be assistants, let alone 4th officials.

Ironically, a lot of the 'con' arguments I've heard are nonsensical, concentrating as they do on the idea of 25 man squads which is irrelevant the number of subs allowed won't change. The other common worry is that this will favour clubs with larger squads. Only time will tell on that but we had the same worry when we jumped from 1 to 3 subs about 15 years ago. Nothing has really changed in my experience.

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(This post was edited by cope1 on May 28, 2012, 7:06 PM)

ictoan
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May 28, 2012, 7:36 PM

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Re: [cope1] 5 substitutions [In reply to]	Can't Post or Reply Privately

I spent a number of years in France involved with a village club at the absolute lowest point of the Pyramid.
Rolling substitutes were allowed which helped our club as there were not enough players for two teams so the system allowed all players to get some game time.

All players had a photo ID registration card which had to be shown personally to the match referee and checked against the team sheet before the match.

All players on the team sheet were considered to have played so no extra records of substitutions needed to be made. I was never aware of problems arising from this system.

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mip
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May 28, 2012, 8:25 PM

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Re: [jon b] 5 substitutions [In reply to]	Can't Post or Reply Privately

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At top level ice hockey the opponents will "penalise" a team if they change too slowly. That's why top sides also get caught out being too many players on the ice.

We've had rolling subs, three at most, at level 5 and below in Denmark for many years now and it works without problems. Substitutions are only allowed when play is already stopped and the referee can still add on time for substitutions. I've never seen teams make "block" substitutions for free kicks, corners etc. and quite frankly think it would be poor managerial skills to do so as it would backfire and disrupt a side's flow of play completely.

cope1
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May 28, 2012, 8:53 PM

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Re: [mip] 5 substitutions [In reply to]	Can't Post or Reply Privately

How is this allowed, given that the laws of the game do not allow it in main stream football?

If you're looking for a new website for your club, league or any other organisation give me a shout at www.acwebcreations.net.

ictoan
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May 28, 2012, 9:02 PM

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Re: [cope1] 5 substitutions [In reply to]	Can't Post or Reply Privately

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How is this allowed, given that the laws of the game do not allow it in main stream football?

The French are very pragmatic. If they agree they will conform, if not they ignore.
It's why they don't have the same problems with EU rules
that the UK does.

We won't be druv.

The North begins at Gatwick.

blucher blue
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May 28, 2012, 9:17 PM

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Re: [PaulC] 5 substitutions [In reply to]	Can't Post or Reply Privately

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Matches are not stopped specifically to allow a sustitution; it's more that players can only be substituted when the ball is out of play; and time should be added on to take account of the substitution. Edit - just seen Mip's summation of the law on substitution above.

(This post was edited by blucher blue on May 28, 2012, 9:18 PM)

mip
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May 28, 2012, 9:23 PM

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Re: [cope1] 5 substitutions [In reply to]	Can't Post or Reply Privately

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How is this allowed, given that the laws of the game do not allow it in main stream football?

Quoting from Part-Timer's post:
The Laws of the Game specifically forbid players who have been replaced from returning to the game. Leagues, other than for under 16s, women or veterans, that are doing this are in breach of FIFA's rules. Any change to the Laws has to go through IFAB. They have approved it for 'recreational' football only and the FA has decided that in this country that is anything below Step 7.

Perhaps the Danish FA class level 5 and below as 'recreational football'.

We also have 10 minute sin-bins for bookings which has lead to very little dissent in games.

PaulC
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May 28, 2012, 10:11 PM

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Re: [blucher blue] 5 substitutions [In reply to]	Can't Post or Reply Privately

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30 seconds per substitution is normally added, regardless of the time taken for the substituted player in the winning team to trudge off the field from as far away as possible. Substitution is often a deliberate tactic to break up the flow of the game.

Yet why, in games with 4 officials, does the match have to be held up? Why cannot the 4th official alone deal with the substitution?

blucher blue
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May 28, 2012, 10:14 PM

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Re: [PaulC] 5 substitutions [In reply to]	Can't Post or Reply Privately

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Because the player being substituted must leave the field of play before the substitute enters. You cannot have more than eleven players per team on the field at once

PaulC
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May 28, 2012, 10:19 PM

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Re: [blucher blue] 5 substitutions [In reply to]	Can't Post or Reply Privately

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Because the player being substituted must leave the field of play before the substitute enters. You cannot have more than eleven players per team on the field at once

Is there a reason why you think the 4th official cannot manage to supervise that?

cope1
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May 28, 2012, 10:38 PM

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Re: [mip] 5 substitutions [In reply to]	Can't Post or Reply Privately

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How is this allowed, given that the laws of the game do not allow it in main stream football?

But the reference to 'recreational football' is only in terms of this proposal, i.e. it hasn't been allowed in 'recreational football' previously. So I wonder if they just ignore the laws of the game.

If you're looking for a new website for your club, league or any other organisation give me a shout at www.acwebcreations.net.

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