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NLM Main Site future coverage

 

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multilevel
Reserve Team Sub

Jul 22, 2018, 5:32 PM

Posts: 411
Location:
Team(s): King's Lynn Town

Post #26 of 44 (12932 views)
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...

So, back to the criteria which we usually tend to adopt include if it's Step 8 or above. and include if it's Step 9 only if the league has a dedicated editor. As mentioned very early in this thread, the English League System is only defined down as far as Step 7/Level 11. https://en.wikipedia.org/...otball_league_system is probably the unofficial listing most often used for Step8/Level 12 and below. At present this includes the requested Central Midlands and divisions at Level 12. The second Wearside division was removed completely only a couple of weeks ago (possibly due to its name being changed to Development Division). And the pair of Hellenic Division Twos do not appear anywhere. (Regarding dedicated editors, Central Midlands and Wearside both have editors; Hellenic does not.)

On this basis, we should include the Central Midlands divisions on NLM. However, the Durham and Wearside Development Division the Hellenic Twos should be held back until they are included at Level 12 in the Wiki listing or in another widely recognised listing.

Problem with waiting for them to be included in the Wikipedia listing is that it is dynamic in the sense that anyone could edit it to include the divisions they want covered.

However, I think that for divisions of leagues that exist at level 11 and above, it's a fairly straightforward thing to regard them as being at level 12 (or above). For instance if the Hellenic League division one's are at level 10 then the division twos have to be considered level 11. If they were "Division Two Development" or something similar then that might be another matter as the league themselves would be making a distinction. However, unless there is something in the League rules treating the division twos as something other than one step below the division ones, we should regard them as step 11.


pitch 63
First Team Star

Jul 22, 2018, 6:01 PM

Posts: 2056
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Post #27 of 44 (12925 views)
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As mentioned very early in this thread, the English League System is only defined down as far as Step 7/Level 11. https://en.wikipedia.org/...otball_league_system is probably the unofficial listing most often used for Step8/Level 12 and below.
.



Quite apart from the fact that anyone can edit this list and often incorrectly, I have just looked at it for the first time ever, and I quickly noticed that it included at least one league that did not play in season 2017-18 and misses out completely one league that has existed since pre-WW1 that is actually at Step 9 /Level 13. So I think that its value is limited.


I agree with the idea that Step 8 should be included [if there are local editors] pproviding there are at least 70% 1st tams.


Sarumio
Man City Transfer Target!

Jul 27, 2018, 11:38 AM

Posts: 6220
Location: Ilminster
Team(s): Salisbury

Post #28 of 44 (12559 views)
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At the end of the day, regardless of how many reserve sides are in the CML Div Ones and regardless of the Durham & Wearside Development League ridiculous name, they, like all the other divisions at notional Step 8, which are covered on nLm, should also be covered to be consistent.

Most of the West Cheshire League's step 8 division is also reserves - but nobody seems to be questioning that division's inclusion....

On top of that I'd say its safe to assume that more people will be interested to see how the likes of Letcombe, Woodstock Town, Fraingdon, Moreton and Headington are getting on in the Hellenic D2s this season, rather than how Ashville Reserves, Rainhill Town Reserves and West Kirby Reserves are getting on!


Richard Rundle
Man City Transfer Target!

Jul 27, 2018, 12:18 PM

Posts: 8302
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Post #29 of 44 (12547 views)
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On top of that I'd say its safe to assume that more people will be interested to see how the likes of Letcombe, Woodstock Town, Fraingdon, Moreton and Headington are getting on in the Hellenic D2s this season, rather than how Ashville Reserves, Rainhill Town Reserves and West Kirby Reserves are getting on!


And probably even more will be interested in the North Berks League clubs, most of whom will be of a higher standard than the Hellenic clubs mentioned above (and most of their surrounding Step 7s too) but because they don't want to follow the FA line, they've been dropped.


Sarumio
Man City Transfer Target!

Jul 27, 2018, 12:32 PM

Posts: 6220
Location: Ilminster
Team(s): Salisbury

Post #30 of 44 (12542 views)
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On top of that I'd say its safe to assume that more people will be interested to see how the likes of Letcombe, Woodstock Town, Fraingdon, Moreton and Headington are getting on in the Hellenic D2s this season, rather than how Ashville Reserves, Rainhill Town Reserves and West Kirby Reserves are getting on!


And probably even more will be interested in the North Berks League clubs, most of whom will be of a higher standard than the Hellenic clubs mentioned above (and most of their surrounding Step 7s too) but because they don't want to follow the FA line, they've been dropped.


I keep hearing this same old soppy story about the North Berks League and its ultmate supremeness over all those that surround it blah blah blah etc.

Is it really that strong a league these days? Top division of 10, last season the bottom three of those 10 mustered up just 19 points between them.

A division Two of 9 clubs - half of whom are reserves.

Their fourth tier (again of 10) is practically a reserve division.

They have lost Abingdon Town, Dorchester, Kintbury and Wallingford in recent season - weakening it further.

I'm not really convinced of it superiority anymore! Maybe its fromer reputation linngers without merit??

Maybe some people might be guilty of living in the past....much like the league it would seem as the enitre four divisions only contain two Berkshire sides. Its the South Oxfordshire Rural Villages League.


(This post was edited by Sarumio on Jul 27, 2018, 1:47 PM)


Bantam Cymraeg
Chelsea Transfer Target


Jul 27, 2018, 4:04 PM

Posts: 4318
Location: Flintshire
Team(s): Bradford City

Post #31 of 44 (12515 views)
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Most of the West Cheshire League's step 8 division is also reserves - but nobody seems to be questioning that division's inclusion....

I'm the editor for the WCL, and I'm happy to carry on covering all 3 divisions. If there's no interest, or a decision is made that divisions with >50% reserve teams are no longer being covered on NLM then I'll go along with that, and maybe pick up another league to edit instead. Until that time comes, I'll keep it going.


Richard Rundle
Man City Transfer Target!

Aug 1, 2018, 11:29 AM

Posts: 8302
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Post #32 of 44 (12253 views)
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I keep hearing this same old soppy story about the North Berks League and its ultmate supremeness over all those that surround it blah blah blah etc.

Is it really that strong a league these days? Top division of 10, last season the bottom three of those 10 mustered up just 19 points between them.


Go out and watch a few games in it, it's not too far from you. Then come back to me.


multilevel
Reserve Team Sub

Aug 7, 2018, 8:22 PM

Posts: 411
Location:
Team(s): King's Lynn Town

Post #33 of 44 (12114 views)
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...

So, back to the criteria which we usually tend to adopt include if it's Step 8 or above. and include if it's Step 9 only if the league has a dedicated editor. As mentioned very early in this thread, the English League System is only defined down as far as Step 7/Level 11. https://en.wikipedia.org/...otball_league_system is probably the unofficial listing most often used for Step8/Level 12 and below. At present this includes the requested Central Midlands and divisions at Level 12. The second Wearside division was removed completely only a couple of weeks ago (possibly due to its name being changed to Development Division). And the pair of Hellenic Division Twos do not appear anywhere. (Regarding dedicated editors, Central Midlands and Wearside both have editors; Hellenic does not.)

On this basis, we should include the Central Midlands divisions on NLM. However, the Durham and Wearside Development Division the Hellenic Twos should be held back until they are included at Level 12 in the Wiki listing or in another widely recognised listing.

Problem with waiting for them to be included in the Wikipedia listing is that it is dynamic in the sense that anyone could edit it to include the divisions they want covered.

However, I think that for divisions of leagues that exist at level 11 and above, it's a fairly straightforward thing to regard them as being at level 12 (or above). For instance if the Hellenic League division one's are at level 10 then the division twos have to be considered level 11. If they were "Division Two Development" or something similar then that might be another matter as the league themselves would be making a distinction. However, unless there is something in the League rules treating the division twos as something other than one step below the division ones, we should regard them as step 11.

We never quite got as far as making any decision about whether or not to include the Hellenic Division Twos but when I was updating the Oxfordshire Senior League earlier today, readying it for 2018/19, I felt forced to make a decision.

When updating the Oxfordshire Senior I found myself having to remove the first teams for Adderbury Park and for Long Crendon because they had moved to the Hellenic Division Twos. However, their reserve sides are both in the Oxfordshire Senior League.

Rather than have the rather absurd situation where we were covering the reserve sides of clubs but not the first team, I decided I would create the two Hellenic Division Twos.

I hope nobody takes offence at this and if there is a groundswell against it, we can always undo it.


Sarumio
Man City Transfer Target!

Aug 7, 2018, 9:07 PM

Posts: 6220
Location: Ilminster
Team(s): Salisbury

Post #34 of 44 (12109 views)
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In Reply To

In Reply To
...

So, back to the criteria which we usually tend to adopt include if it's Step 8 or above. and include if it's Step 9 only if the league has a dedicated editor. As mentioned very early in this thread, the English League System is only defined down as far as Step 7/Level 11. https://en.wikipedia.org/...otball_league_system is probably the unofficial listing most often used for Step8/Level 12 and below. At present this includes the requested Central Midlands and divisions at Level 12. The second Wearside division was removed completely only a couple of weeks ago (possibly due to its name being changed to Development Division). And the pair of Hellenic Division Twos do not appear anywhere. (Regarding dedicated editors, Central Midlands and Wearside both have editors; Hellenic does not.)

On this basis, we should include the Central Midlands divisions on NLM. However, the Durham and Wearside Development Division the Hellenic Twos should be held back until they are included at Level 12 in the Wiki listing or in another widely recognised listing.

Problem with waiting for them to be included in the Wikipedia listing is that it is dynamic in the sense that anyone could edit it to include the divisions they want covered.

However, I think that for divisions of leagues that exist at level 11 and above, it's a fairly straightforward thing to regard them as being at level 12 (or above). For instance if the Hellenic League division one's are at level 10 then the division twos have to be considered level 11. If they were "Division Two Development" or something similar then that might be another matter as the league themselves would be making a distinction. However, unless there is something in the League rules treating the division twos as something other than one step below the division ones, we should regard them as step 11.

We never quite got as far as making any decision about whether or not to include the Hellenic Division Twos but when I was updating the Oxfordshire Senior League earlier today, readying it for 2018/19, I felt forced to make a decision.

When updating the Oxfordshire Senior I found myself having to remove the first teams for Adderbury Park and for Long Crendon because they had moved to the Hellenic Division Twos. However, their reserve sides are both in the Oxfordshire Senior League.

Rather than have the rather absurd situation where we were covering the reserve sides of clubs but not the first team, I decided I would create the two Hellenic Division Twos.

I hope nobody takes offence at this and if there is a groundswell against it, we can always undo it.





Good shout! However you have placed them at Step 7 - that is an official designation bestowed by the FA - which the Hellenic Div Two's do not have. The highest they can be placed is Step 8 - and whilst not "real" - it is the notional term used on this forum for any division either feeding a Step 7 division or any division feeding a Step 6 division without Step 7 status.


Also the likes of Aston Clinton and Old Bradwell cannot, under any circumstances have two teams at Step 7. Their first teams are of course in the Step 7 SSML Division Two


(This post was edited by Sarumio on Aug 7, 2018, 9:12 PM)


multilevel
Reserve Team Sub

Aug 8, 2018, 8:05 AM

Posts: 411
Location:
Team(s): King's Lynn Town

Post #35 of 44 (12087 views)
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Good shout! However you have placed them at Step 7 - that is an official designation bestowed by the FA - which the Hellenic Div Two's do not have. The highest they can be placed is Step 8 - and whilst not "real" - it is the notional term used on this forum for any division either feeding a Step 7 division or any division feeding a Step 6 division without Step 7 status.

Also the likes of Aston Clinton and Old Bradwell cannot, under any circumstances have two teams at Step 7. Their first teams are of course in the Step 7 SSML Division Two

You make a very good point and I have moved the two divisions to "Step 8" on NLM.

While this solves one anomaly, it does create another with clubs now having both their first team and reserves at step 8 (e.g. Oxfordshire Senior League Division One). However, having this anomaly outside the formal pyramid is better than having it within. I have added a note to each of the two Hellenic Division Twos to explain this situation to readers.


drawoh
First Team Regular

Aug 8, 2018, 6:12 PM

Posts: 1202
Location:
Team(s): Alsager Town, Tottenham Hotspur

Post #36 of 44 (12056 views)
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Good shout! However you have placed them at Step 7 - that is an official designation bestowed by the FA - which the Hellenic Div Two's do not have. The highest they can be placed is Step 8 - and whilst not "real" - it is the notional term used on this forum for any division either feeding a Step 7 division or any division feeding a Step 6 division without Step 7 status.

Also the likes of Aston Clinton and Old Bradwell cannot, under any circumstances have two teams at Step 7. Their first teams are of course in the Step 7 SSML Division Two

You make a very good point and I have moved the two divisions to "Step 8" on NLM.

While this solves one anomaly, it does create another with clubs now having both their first team and reserves at step 8 (e.g. Oxfordshire Senior League Division One). However, having this anomaly outside the formal pyramid is better than having it within. I have added a note to each of the two Hellenic Division Twos to explain this situation to readers.

Well done for taking the bull by the horns and setting up the Hellenic Twos! I'd already set up the suggested lower divisions for Wearside and Central Midlands, and was still pondering whether or not we should include the Hellenic Twos. Now that they're created I can stop worrying about whether to do it. So thanks!

And moving them to Step 8 is absolutely the right thing!


steve walker
Administrator


Aug 8, 2018, 10:00 PM

Posts: 1759
Location: Staffordshire
Team(s):

Post #37 of 44 (12034 views)
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The only point I would make here is that whilst you guys discuss the semantics of a League being at what level and should it be included or not.... it still needs updating throughout the season.
I've had over 200 views on a thread appealing for new Editors in the General Section and picked up one new Editor. I will do what I can but I need you guys with admin access to help with the day to day updating as Hitchin John needs to cut back a bit.
I will put out some Twitter appeals to League feeds but in the meantime please do your best to give him some help as I will be doing.
Thanks


Hitchin-John
First Team Sub

Aug 9, 2018, 2:16 PM

Posts: 1061
Location: Biggleswade, Beds.
Team(s): Hitchin Town

Post #38 of 44 (11970 views)
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I followed the debate above with interest and came to the same conclusion as Steve, who is going to update the new leagues? I also noted that fixtures have been created upto and including the 1 Sept for the new leagues.

We desperately require new editors to update Step 5 leagues as under: preferably all divisions within a league and attendance figures.

Combined Counties League
Eastern Counties League
Essex Senior League
Hellenic League
United Counties League
Southern Combination League - uncertain if we have a regular editor for this league.

Most Step 7 leagues, Irish, Scottish and Welsh leagues also require new editors.

Just check the league table to see the Red or Green Button to see if this league is edited, if Red and you want to help out just click on the Button and Steve will do the rest.

The value of this site has grown over recent years and we need to maintain and improve if possible.

Any help will be appreciated but be careful, it can become an obsession. LaughLaugh


Mello Yello
Youth Team Sub

Sep 5, 2018, 8:35 AM

Posts: 152
Location: Tyneside
Team(s): Torquay United, Whitley Bay, Blyth Spartans, non-league in general

Post #39 of 44 (11536 views)
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Hi all, I've just started editing the Northern Alliance - nice system that so far looks more straightforward than I'd feared.

If it's of interest to add the 3rd tier, NFA2, then I'd be happy to edit it as the Northern Alliance gives fixtures for all 3 divisions on one page so would not add much more time to what I've already agreed to do.


Hitchin-John
First Team Sub

Sep 5, 2018, 4:52 PM

Posts: 1061
Location: Biggleswade, Beds.
Team(s): Hitchin Town

Post #40 of 44 (11504 views)
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Hi all, I've just started editing the Northern Alliance - nice system that so far looks more straightforward than I'd feared.

If it's of interest to add the 3rd tier, NFA2, then I'd be happy to edit it as the Northern Alliance gives fixtures for all 3 divisions on one page so would not add much more time to what I've already agreed to do.


Welcome and thanks for becoming an Editor for the NFA League.

Thanks for the offer to update a lower division but it is a site rule that we do not report on League Divisions below Step 8 as this would become totally unmanageable across England. The Irish, Scottish and Welsh Leagues are not related to the National League steps.


Bantam Cymraeg
Chelsea Transfer Target


Sep 5, 2018, 7:31 PM

Posts: 4318
Location: Flintshire
Team(s): Bradford City

Post #41 of 44 (11493 views)
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I edit Division 3 (and 1 & 2) of the West Cheshire League, which is "Step 9". Is that going to be discontinued?


Hitchin-John
First Team Sub

Sep 5, 2018, 8:26 PM

Posts: 1061
Location: Biggleswade, Beds.
Team(s): Hitchin Town

Post #42 of 44 (11485 views)
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I edit Division 3 (and 1 & 2) of the West Cheshire League, which is "Step 9". Is that going to be discontinued?



Have to apologise if I have posted an incorrect rule, it is apparent that some lower level leagues are being covered by NLM and will continue to be so where we an Editor.

Will investigate a lower division for NFA above.


multilevel
Reserve Team Sub

Sep 5, 2018, 11:59 PM

Posts: 411
Location:
Team(s): King's Lynn Town

Post #43 of 44 (11464 views)
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I edit Division 3 (and 1 & 2) of the West Cheshire League, which is "Step 9". Is that going to be discontinued?



Have to apologise if I have posted an incorrect rule, it is apparent that some lower level leagues are being covered by NLM and will continue to be so where we an Editor.

Will investigate a lower division for NFA above.

Hitchin-John is right. The decision was made to not to cover those divisions below "Step 8" where we did not have an editor dedicated to looking after the division. However, where we do have an editor who wants to include a "Step 8" division (like West Cheshire) this can be accommodated.

Prompted by Hitchin-John, I have set up a second division for the Northern Football Alliance and populated it with teams.

Mello Yello: If you want help adding in the matches that have already taken place, please do say. Otherwise we'll leave it to you to get it up to date.


Mello Yello
Youth Team Sub

Sep 6, 2018, 6:53 PM

Posts: 152
Location: Tyneside
Team(s): Torquay United, Whitley Bay, Blyth Spartans, non-league in general

Post #44 of 44 (11421 views)
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Thanks, the Alliance website is pretty good so I'll start with the fixtures and then work backwards

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