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VAR to be used for England v Germany

 

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Isaac
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Feb 5, 2018, 4:21 PM

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Re: [Part-Timer] VAR to be used for England v Germany [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately


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Yesterdays Liverpool v Tottenham game shows we need VAR now, Jon Moss and his assistant having to guess what happened really was farcical.


Think you need VAR in your own living room. All the contentious decisions were correct and to suggest the assistant in particular was guessing is just plain incorrect. Excellent analysis from Sky earlier today on this, btw.


And you need to read what has actually been posted instead of being pre occupied with starting petty arguments.

Whether the decisions were correct isn't the issue, although that is certainly debatable, the fact is the officials were clearly guessing.

The referee and assistant conferred, recognising that neither of them had the full picture, and asked for the views of the fourth official to further clarify the situation. Following that, they came to the correct conclusion. That's not guessing, that's teamwork.


The fourth official didn't say anything.


paulh66
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Feb 5, 2018, 4:23 PM

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Post #52 of 72 (5764 views)
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Re: [Isaac] VAR to be used for England v Germany [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately

 
Now if you don't mind I'll wait until somebody with something intelligent to say comes along before I comment further.


Fine by me, the rest of us can then have a fact-based conversation. Jury's still out on VAR and yesterday's events, as now proven, add no meaningful evidence to the argument that it's needed.


Part-Timer
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Post #53 of 72 (5755 views)
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Re: [Isaac] VAR to be used for England v Germany [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately


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Yesterdays Liverpool v Tottenham game shows we need VAR now, Jon Moss and his assistant having to guess what happened really was farcical.


Think you need VAR in your own living room. All the contentious decisions were correct and to suggest the assistant in particular was guessing is just plain incorrect. Excellent analysis from Sky earlier today on this, btw.


And you need to read what has actually been posted instead of being pre occupied with starting petty arguments.

Whether the decisions were correct isn't the issue, although that is certainly debatable, the fact is the officials were clearly guessing.

The referee and assistant conferred, recognising that neither of them had the full picture, and asked for the views of the fourth official to further clarify the situation. Following that, they came to the correct conclusion. That's not guessing, that's teamwork.


The fourth official didn't say anything.

The transcript according to The Daily Mail:


Assistant Eddie Smart to Jon Moss: 'All I need to know is did (Dejan) Lovren touch the ball or not? If he's not touched the ball it is offside. It has to be offside if Lovren has not touched the ball.'

Christian Eriksen: 'He did touch the ball.'

Emre Can: 'He didn't.'

Smart: 'I cannot be sure if Lovren touched the ball or not. That is the question I am asking.'

The officials then send the players away

Moss: 'Just talk to me again.'

Smart: 'I need to clarify if Lovren touched the ball or not. If he has, it is a deliberate action and therefore it's a penalty. If he did not, it is offside.'

Moss: 'I have no idea if Lovren touched the ball or not. Martin, have you got anything?'

The two officials ask the fourth official Martin Atkinson

Moss to Smart: 'I'm giving the penalty mate.'


We don't know what Martin Atkinson said (if anything) because he 60 yards away and would not have been picked up by the eavesdropping microphone that recorded the rest of the exchange.

Incidentally Emre Can is obviously blind. Perhaps he should consider taking up refereeing. Tongue


paulh66
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Feb 5, 2018, 5:06 PM

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Post #54 of 72 (5741 views)
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Re: [Part-Timer] VAR to be used for England v Germany [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately

PGMOL has just released a statement which ties up any loose ends:
https://pbs.twimg.com/...=jpg&name=medium


Isaac
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Feb 5, 2018, 7:57 PM

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Post #55 of 72 (5697 views)
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Re: [paulh66] VAR to be used for England v Germany [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately

The PGMOL say Jon Moss was misguided, another link here http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/42943628

Moss didn't seem to know what he was doing, now had he been able to pass it over to a VAR to review in a calm environment with nobody chirping in his ear?


paulh66
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Post #56 of 72 (5685 views)
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Re: [Isaac] VAR to be used for England v Germany [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately

Yes, if you read beyond the headline then you'll see it's the same statement. Despite his slip in mentioning TV, the officials followed the correct process, made the correct call and, in doing so, at no point relied on guesswork because, between them, they'd seen all the relevant incidents.


(This post was edited by paulh66 on Feb 5, 2018, 8:15 PM)


Isaac
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Post #57 of 72 (5615 views)
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Re: [paulh66] VAR to be used for England v Germany [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately

Jon Moss was not sure whether Lovren had touched the ball and so he guessed.

Whether Kane was fouled by the keeper or dived is another matter and opinions vary, there is no definitive answer but a VAR would obviously have more chance of getting it right than the match officials on the pitch who only get one look at it.


paulh66
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Post #58 of 72 (5605 views)
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Re: [Isaac] VAR to be used for England v Germany [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately


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Jon Moss was not sure whether Lovren had touched the ball and so he guessed.


He knew a Liverpool player had played the ball, just not the identity of the player. But that's all he needed to know. The opening paragraph of PGMOL's statement is self-explanatory on this, he did not guess in order to reach his decision.

The real question coming out of all this is why he would mention TV when he was conferring. Did he accidentally think VAR was in operation or was it a clue that, as some have occasionally suspected but no official would ever admit, that the fourth official does sometimes sneak a look at a monitor and feed it back to the ref?


Ropemaker
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Post #59 of 72 (5445 views)
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Re: [paulh66] VAR to be used for England v Germany [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately

Another VAR incident, this time from Portugal.

In Aves v Boavista, the referee wanted to use VAR to check for an offside in an Aves goal but couldn't as a Boavista fan's flag blocked the camera's view. You couldn't make it up!

It was Aves third goal in a 3-0 win but in a closer game ...

https://www.theguardian.com/...nt-flag-goal-offside



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greenwood
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Post #60 of 72 (4958 views)
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Re: [PaulC] VAR to be used for England v Germany [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately


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Apart from whether or not the ball has crossed the goalline I would steer clear of VAR. Crossing or not crossing the line is a matter of fact - fouls, penalties are a matter of opinion and judgment.


Agree completely with your comments, especially after seeing the daft penalty award in England v Italy on the TV last night, which was the result of VAR being used.


(This post was edited by greenwood on Mar 29, 2018, 12:01 AM)


Part-Timer
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Post #61 of 72 (4905 views)
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Re: [greenwood] VAR to be used for England v Germany [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately


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Apart from whether or not the ball has crossed the goalline I would steer clear of VAR. Crossing or not crossing the line is a matter of fact - fouls, penalties are a matter of opinion and judgment.


Agree completely with your comments, especially after seeing the daft penalty award in England v Italy on the TV last night, which was the result of VAR being used.

I am not wild about the use of VAR either but I fail to see how the penalty award in this game was daft. Tarkowski trod on the foot of an opponent thus impeding him. That is clearly a foul.


Tykeoldboy
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Post #62 of 72 (4848 views)
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Re: [Part-Timer] VAR to be used for England v Germany [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately

Isn't VAR there at the discretion of the referee and not on the demand of player protest? The referee decided it wasn't a penalty, if he was unsure when the incident happen he would have immediately gone to VAR which he didn't.


Ropemaker
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Post #63 of 72 (4835 views)
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Re: [Tykeoldboy] VAR to be used for England v Germany [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately

So instead of "was it an error" we seem to be heading towards "degrees of error"

Some "controversy" for pundits anyway



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rivington
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Re: [Ropemaker] VAR to be used for England v Germany [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately

Watched the Mainz verses Freiburg match (2-0) last and just when you think you’ve seen it all with VAR technology.
As half-time was called and with Freiburg players back in the changing room and Mainz players in the tunnel entrance on their way to the dressing room the referee got a call to check the VAR.
The Referee then went to the far side of the pitch where the monitor was, before calling back both sides and awarding a penalty. Oh for the days when we were all happy with the Referees decision!
The second half was then delayed with a superbly choreographed toilet roll throwing onto the pitch at protest at Bundesliga fixtures being played on Monday nights.
Great entertainment; but bad news for HSV now with a preverbal 6 pointer against Freiburg this weekend, teams 17th and 16th respectively.


Tykeoldboy
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Re: [rivington] VAR to be used for England v Germany [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately

Are FIFA setting themselves for a major embarrassment by using VAR at the 2018 WC even though their are still lots of operational issues with the system?


Isaac
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Post #66 of 72 (4173 views)
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Are FIFA setting themselves for a major embarrassment by using VAR at the 2018 WC even though their are still lots of operational issues with the system?


I never thought I'd be saying this but..............well done FIFA!

No more hand of god goals, no more goals not standing when the ball is way over the line, and yes I'm sure other countries have suffered similar injustices.

And it will all be shown on the big screen so that fans know what is going on, football is finally coming out of the dark ages!


Isaac
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Post #67 of 72 (4165 views)
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Re: [rivington] VAR to be used for England v Germany [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately


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Watched the Mainz verses Freiburg match (2-0) last and just when you think you’ve seen it all with VAR technology.
As half-time was called and with Freiburg players back in the changing room and Mainz players in the tunnel entrance on their way to the dressing room the referee got a call to check the VAR.
The Referee then went to the far side of the pitch where the monitor was, before calling back both sides and awarding a penalty. Oh for the days when we were all happy with the
decision!

The second half was then delayed with a superbly choreographed toilet roll throwing onto the pitch at protest at Bundesliga fixtures being played on Monday nights.
Great entertainment; but bad news for HSV now with a preverbal 6 pointer against Freiburg this weekend, teams 17th and 16th respectively.


It wasn't ideal but surely preferable to a wrong decision being allowed to stand?

Why did the referee have to look at the monitor? Can't the VAR make the decision?


Towlawtom
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Post #68 of 72 (4118 views)
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Re: [Isaac] VAR to be used for England v Germany [In reply to] Can't Post or


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Watched the Mainz verses Freiburg match (2-0) last and just when you think you’ve seen it all with VAR technology.
As half-time was called and with Freiburg players back in the changing room and Mainz players in the tunnel entrance on their way to the dressing room the referee got a call to check the VAR.
The Referee then went to the far side of the pitch where the monitor was, before calling back both sides and awarding a penalty. Oh for the days when we were all happy with the
decision!

The second half was then delayed with a superbly choreographed toilet roll throwing onto the pitch at protest at Bundesliga fixtures being played on Monday nights.
Great entertainment; but bad news for HSV now with a preverbal 6 pointer against Freiburg this weekend, teams 17th and 16th respectively.


It wasn't ideal but surely preferable to a wrong decision being allowed to stand?

Why did the referee have to look at the monitor? Can't the VAR make the decision?


The incident was a Total farce. VAR is going to kill the game as fans don't want to wait for 5 minutes for a decision to be made. They got it right with goalline technology and should have just stuck to that. Also VAR will encourage less people to want to take up refereeing. No evidence of that but just my opinion.



I need to have the last word as it makes it look as if i'm always right!


Isaac
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Post #69 of 72 (4105 views)
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Re: [Towlawtom] VAR to be used for England v Germany [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately


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Watched the Mainz verses Freiburg match (2-0) last and just when you think you’ve seen it all with VAR technology.
As half-time was called and with Freiburg players back in the changing room and Mainz players in the tunnel entrance on their way to the dressing room the referee got a call to check the VAR.
The Referee then went to the far side of the pitch where the monitor was, before calling back both sides and awarding a penalty. Oh for the days when we were all happy with the
decision!

The second half was then delayed with a superbly choreographed toilet roll throwing onto the pitch at protest at Bundesliga fixtures being played on Monday nights.
Great entertainment; but bad news for HSV now with a preverbal 6 pointer against Freiburg this weekend, teams 17th and 16th respectively.


It wasn't ideal but surely preferable to a wrong decision being allowed to stand?

Why did the referee have to look at the monitor? Can't the VAR make the decision?


The incident was a Total farce. VAR is going to kill the game as fans don't want to wait for 5 minutes for a decision to be made. They got it right with goalline technology and should have just stuck to that. Also VAR will encourage less people to want to take up refereeing. No evidence of that but just my opinion.



You're entitled to your opinion but I totally disagree, most decisions can be made in seconds, certainly not five minutes. The farce is games being decided by refereeing errors, we can all see on our TV screens what happened but nobody can tell the referee, you couldn't make it up.


windydcfc
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Post #70 of 72 (4092 views)
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Re: [Isaac] VAR to be used for England v Germany [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately


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Watched the Mainz verses Freiburg match (2-0) last and just when you think you’ve seen it all with VAR technology.
As half-time was called and with Freiburg players back in the changing room and Mainz players in the tunnel entrance on their way to the dressing room the referee got a call to check the VAR.
The Referee then went to the far side of the pitch where the monitor was, before calling back both sides and awarding a penalty. Oh for the days when we were all happy with the
decision!

The second half was then delayed with a superbly choreographed toilet roll throwing onto the pitch at protest at Bundesliga fixtures being played on Monday nights.
Great entertainment; but bad news for HSV now with a preverbal 6 pointer against Freiburg this weekend, teams 17th and 16th respectively.


It wasn't ideal but surely preferable to a wrong decision being allowed to stand?

Why did the referee have to look at the monitor? Can't the VAR make the decision?


The incident was a Total farce. VAR is going to kill the game as fans don't want to wait for 5 minutes for a decision to be made. They got it right with goalline technology and should have just stuck to that. Also VAR will encourage less people to want to take up refereeing. No evidence of that but just my opinion.



You're entitled to your opinion but I totally disagree, most decisions can be made in seconds, certainly not five minutes. The farce is games being decided by refereeing errors, we can all see on our TV screens what happened but nobody can tell the referee, you couldn't make it up.



Some fouls can be subjective & difficult to determine who’s actually committed the offence. The pulling around whilst defending corners, is an example of this! But I believe the goal line technology should be extended to include offside decisions. I’m sure there’s technology out there, that can automatically sense if a player if even slightly offside.


Towlawtom
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Re: [windydcfc] VAR to be used for England v Germany [In reply to] Can't Post or

I agree VAR wont sort out everything even if you played back everything 100 times. I don't feel players Diving is always easy to spot even with use of VAR. Refs have booked players for Diving when they have been genuinely fouled.

There was a controversial incident in a world cup game. Think Brazil v Norway when Norway got what looked like a dubious penalty. Even after about 100 replays playing it back over and over it appeared the Norway player dived.Next day a photographer from a different angle showed a picture of the Brazil player tugging the Norway players shirt. VAR wouldn't of sorted that out no matter how many times it was viewed



I need to have the last word as it makes it look as if i'm always right!


Isaac
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Post #72 of 72 (4038 views)
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Re: [Towlawtom] VAR to be used for England v Germany [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately


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I agree VAR wont sort out everything even if you played back everything 100 times. I don't feel players Diving is always easy to spot even with use of VAR. Refs have booked players for Diving when they have been genuinely fouled.

There was a controversial incident in a world cup game. Think Brazil v Norway when Norway got what looked like a dubious penalty. Even after about 100 replays playing it back over and over it appeared the Norway player dived.Next day a photographer from a different angle showed a picture of the Brazil player tugging the Norway players shirt. VAR wouldn't of sorted that out no matter how many times it was viewed


I know the incident you are referring to when Tor Andre Flo was vilified for taking a dive before subsequently being vindicated, there will inevitably be a few things even the VAR misses but it gives officials the best possible chance of making the correct decision.

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