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EU Withdrawal Negotiations

 

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Richard Rundle
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Oct 17, 2018, 11:18 AM

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Post #1876 of 1968 (1272 views)
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Re: [jrev61] EU Withdrawal Negotiations [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately


In Reply To

I have never heard a Brexiteer give a credible answer to a question like 'How will Brexit benefit the UK?' They almost always come up with rubbish like 'We'll get our country back', 'We'll control our borders' or 'We can make our own laws'


We'll be able to do trade deals!

We'll be able to make trade agreements with countries we already have trade agreements as members of the EU, and from a far worse bargaining position as a single market of 60-odd million customers than a single market of 500million. But they'll be OUR trade deals!

Like the one with Botswana, Eswatini, Lesotho, Namibia, and South Africa that's already been agreed. Whoops, that's just a continuation of exactly the trade conditions we already have with those countries as part of the EU.


jrev61
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Oct 17, 2018, 3:22 PM

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Post #1877 of 1968 (1203 views)
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Re: [Richard Rundle] EU Withdrawal Negotiations [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately


In Reply To

In Reply To

I have never heard a Brexiteer give a credible answer to a question like 'How will Brexit benefit the UK?' They almost always come up with rubbish like 'We'll get our country back', 'We'll control our borders' or 'We can make our own laws'


We'll be able to do trade deals!

We'll be able to make trade agreements with countries we already have trade agreements as members of the EU, and from a far worse bargaining position as a single market of 60-odd million customers than a single market of 500million. But they'll be OUR trade deals!

Like the one with Botswana, Eswatini, Lesotho, Namibia, and South Africa that's already been agreed. Whoops, that's just a continuation of exactly the trade conditions we already have with those countries as part of the EU.[/reply

I had to look up Eswatini. Apparently it's the new name for Swaziland. Perhaps that should be under what did we learn today. Correctly it's eSwatini.



jrev61


Yatesman
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Oct 17, 2018, 8:36 PM

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Post #1878 of 1968 (1118 views)
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Re: [broodleyhoo] EU Withdrawal Negotiations [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately


In Reply To
Really have no desire to get involved with the emotional baggage around the entire EU negotiation argument, but feel it is reasonable to point out that

a) Intriguing that you choose not to take on Major's arguments, preferring instead character assassination.

b) Given his easily-researched personal history on Wiki, the claim about his personal background is easily refuted.

c) Your list of the advantages of being able to travel freely between the 'UK ' and Ireland is an excellent example of why freedom of movement is such a great thing for all 28 nations. To claim that somehow the Irish are more 'salt of the earth' and thus we should have a special relationship with that nation but no other we have had equally lengthy historical links with is unsustainable.

d) Some in Ireland might see the 'special relationship' with England/the rest of the UK in less rosy terms. They might refer back to Essex, Cromwell and also the events of a century ago where English/UK action partitioned their country. But even if not that, I think they might say...hang on, we have friction-free relationships with 26 other European countries. Why should we put that in jeopardy for friction-free relations with one?

Confusingly, your last sentence pretty much describes how most of the rest of the EU runs its 'freedom of movement' (for the sake of brevity) regulations. Delighted that you agree that such a plan causes you no problem

It has been the UK govt's unwillingness to do something similar that is, I believe at the heart of those who would have us Brexit see as a 'problem' with 'immigration' (again in quotes as I know such terms can have long and complex back stories)


Unfortunately Major was a terrible Prime Minister and should never have held that post. His words now carry no gravitas whatsoever. I speed read the article and thought it was the usual Remainer drivel.

I think history will judge Remainers such as he as instrumental in undermining the Uk's negotiating position by their constant cheerleading for the EU .

As for character assasination.......something I learned from Remainers, perhaps.

I'll agree that there are some benefits to freedom of travel and see no reason that shouldn't continue but the freedom of movement for labour has created problems for society and you bury your head in the sand if you choose to contest that.

Harking back to Cromwell does not serve your point well at all. Any arrangements with Ireland are about future relationships and our relationship with Ireland is unique, is nothing to do with Brussels and should be carefully nurtured. It's no coincidence that the UK was it's major benefactor and saviour when It f*cked it's economy up a few years ago

I'm not convinced that 'friction free' travel or movement is the ulimate goal. I think sanctity of sovereignity is more desirable.
Freedom of movement as it is currently practiced is a tool that benefits global businesses and is convenient for emptying the EU's growing dole queues.

Just so we are clear, I have no problem with immigration. It's unfettered immigration with no planning or control that I find fault with.
It's immigration that ,rather than supplies fresh talent to the industries or organisations in need exactly where they are needed and for as long as they are needed, is out of control and has seen an influx of labour that doesn't fill a need but creates such an overwhelming level of competition that UK nationals , who have extensive committments and responsibilities, are priced out of a decent wage by cheaper competition and denied advancement because employers can renege on their responsibilities to their original indigenous employees. Of course this hardly affects the smug middle classes who have risen ever so slightly out of the swamp and can see a benefit to exploiting desperate young Europeans in to doing there dirty, menial and servile work.
Why worry about the effects on their home communities or nations o r low wages, long hours and minimal training when a pretty Lithuanian is serving you coffee or a Polish youth is digging the foundations for your new extension on shit money with minimal H&S or job security.

You see, apart from that, immigration is fantastic and I'm all for it.

I mean, you can't have too many coffee shops or burger joints on the High St can you ?


mip
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Oct 17, 2018, 9:44 PM

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Post #1879 of 1968 (1097 views)
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Re: [Yatesman] EU Withdrawal Negotiations [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately


In Reply To
...
I'm not convinced that 'friction free' travel or movement is the ulimate goal. I think sanctity of sovereignity is more desirable.
Freedom of movement as it is currently practiced is a tool that benefits global businesses and is convenient for emptying the EU's growing dole queues.

Just so we are clear, I have no problem with immigration. It's unfettered immigration with no planning or control that I find fault with.
It's immigration that ,rather than supplies fresh talent to the industries or organisations in need exactly where they are needed and for as long as they are needed, is out of control and has seen an influx of labour that doesn't fill a need but creates such an overwhelming level of competition that UK nationals , who have extensive committments and responsibilities, are priced out of a decent wage by cheaper competition and denied advancement because employers can renege on their responsibilities to their original indigenous employees. Of course this hardly affects the smug middle classes who have risen ever so slightly out of the swamp and can see a benefit to exploiting desperate young Europeans in to doing there dirty, menial and servile work.
Why worry about the effects on their home communities or nations
o r low wages, long hours and minimal training when a pretty Lithuanian is serving you coffee or a Polish youth is digging the foundations for your new extension on shit money with minimal H&S or job security.

You see, apart from that, immigration is fantastic and I'm all for it.

I mean, you can't have too many coffee shops or burger joints on the High St can you ?


But you think it's alright to exploit desperate young talented Europeans to do the jobs you want for the benefit of the UK?

Do you think the largest negative impact to the Lithuanian society is done by a girl serving coffee in the UK or an engineer or scientist going to the UK for work? You, of course, know the answer but would have no problem with it?

And do you actually have numbers to back up your claims that unfettered immigration causes all the ills you claim? Because I think you're playing a dangerous game. If "unfettered" European immigration on the contrary creates wealth to a society, as impact assessments in continental countries have shown, you will eventually hit the people you claim to help very hard.

And you also make the UK a less attractive place for the Europeans you want to come. I'm certain the Lithuanian scientist will think twice about applying for that job in the UK when she knows her sister is not welcome because she's not a scientist.


(This post was edited by mip on Oct 17, 2018, 9:44 PM)


colpic
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Oct 18, 2018, 1:47 AM

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Post #1880 of 1968 (1050 views)
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Re: [Yatesman] EU Withdrawal Negotiations [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately

'I speed read the article and thought it was the usual Remainer drivel'.

Just to translate the breathtaking arrogance above:-

'I didn't bother to read the article in any depth in case it challenged my entrenched beliefs. I have no respect for any views other than my own so there's nothing to be gained in engaging me in debate because, like it or not, I know best'.

I actually quite enjoy your posts, worrying as they are just in case there are others out there with such bizarre views, because it reminds me why I am such a staunch Remainer and why I can look my kids in the eyes when our standard of living plummets because major trades deals with the likes of Peru (as Boris promised) don't quite deliver.

Thanks pal. If you didn't exist, the board would be a lesser place.



Where's the 'ignore this poster' button?


Yatesman
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Oct 18, 2018, 7:30 AM

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Post #1881 of 1968 (1022 views)
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Re: [colpic] EU Withdrawal Negotiations [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately


In Reply To
'I speed read the article and thought it was the usual Remainer drivel'.

Just to translate the breathtaking arrogance above:-

'I didn't bother to read the article in any depth in case it challenged my entrenched beliefs. I have no respect for any views other than my own so there's nothing to be gained in engaging me in debate because, like it or not, I know best'.

I actually quite enjoy your posts, worrying as they are just in case there are others out there with such bizarre views, because it reminds me why I am such a staunch Remainer and why I can look my kids in the eyes when our standard of living plummets because major trades deals with the likes of Peru (as Boris promised) don't quite deliver.

Thanks pal. If you didn't exist, the board would be a lesser place.


I agree with your last paragraph, thank you. Nothing like a back handed compliment to start the day with!

Your 'breathtaking arrogance' claim is a bit OTT. I speed read to find anything relevant on Brexit negotiations as that is what this thread is specifically about.

I've since read it through and find it to be the same sort of negative and defeatist drivel expounded ad nauseum by Farron, Cable and clegg et al.

It's as if they think the UK will sail off to the Arctic Circle and disengage completely from the world I don't see Brexit as that.

The EU is one political organisation, one that Major could not successfully deal with, one that has ambitions that does not fit wiith most UK residents and it is that which we will lleave.
We're not heading off to the Moon.

I know people love to get angry, love to expound contempt and ridicule, especially online, but I think most Remainers have lost sight of what it is the UK has actually voted for.
We will still be around, have a voice, do trade etc etc.
If our influence is slightly less a, as Major predicts, Good Job.
Maybe we'll not stick our nose in where it doesn't belong and where it isn't welcome as we have done far too many times over the past 400 years.


broodleyhoo
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Oct 18, 2018, 8:20 AM

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Post #1882 of 1968 (1006 views)
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Re: [Yatesman] EU Withdrawal Negotiations [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately

As I said in my earlier post, I have no desire to get involved in attempts at emotionally-based point scoring, so I'm afraid just referring to an argument as 'drivel' without backing it up with why you think that doesn't really get us any further.

Neither am I angry nor do I wish to indulge in hyperbole.

The situation re Brexit to my mind is firmly entrenched in 2 logical contradictions.

1. You wish us to leave a trading organization : yet to continue to have the same benefits that being a member of that organization brings. Why would the other members of the organization grant that facility, and where on earth has a similar outcome been obtained?

2. You wish to be separate from the EU and control our borders. Yet where the act of Brexit creates such a border, you have no wish to establish it.

No anger. No emotion. No name calling. Just cold logic.

Would really appreciate if you can explain how you see Brexit overcoming those logical problems in similar terms.


Yatesman
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Oct 18, 2018, 7:17 PM

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Post #1883 of 1968 (911 views)
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Re: [broodleyhoo] EU Withdrawal Negotiations [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately


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As I said in my earlier post, I have no desire to get involved in attempts at emotionally-based point scoring, so I'm afraid just referring to an argument as 'drivel' without backing it up with why you think that doesn't really get us any further.

Neither am I angry nor do I wish to indulge in hyperbole.

The situation re Brexit to my mind is firmly entrenched in 2 logical contradictions.

1. You wish us to leave a trading organization : yet to continue to have the same benefits that being a member of that organization brings. Why would the other members of the organization grant that facility, and where on earth has a similar outcome been obtained?

2. You wish to be separate from the EU and control our borders. Yet where the act of Brexit creates such a border, you have no wish to establish it.

No anger. No emotion. No name calling. Just cold logic.

Would really appreciate if you can explain how you see Brexit overcoming those logical problems in similar terms.


I doubt I would see some of the aspects of EU membership as benefits in the way that you do and I'm not one of those ( if they even exist) that expects our post Brexit arrangement to match the conditins of membership.
What I do hope for is that the EU stops seeing us as the enemy and actually starts to engage positively and constructively with us to thrash out a post Brexit trading arrangement.
Logic dictates that after 40 years in the EU it should be very straightforward to agree a post Brexit trading arrangement that is free of rancour and sets a positive framework for the future.
Unfortunately the EU hasn't brought logic to the table they have brought the ( not too) hidden agenda of punishing the UK to send the message to other nations that are considering leaving that there will be a shitstorm should they also try.

Now , within these negotiations it is to be expected that there may be one or two areas that require a bit of extra thought and attention.
The Irish border is one of those.
Luckily the border isn't on continental , mainland Europe. That makes the situation easier. Unfortunately there is a historic legacy from The Troubles that makes the situation harder.

The act of Brexit hardens our border with the EU, no problem with that.
Ireland , however . should be, could be and probably will be treated differently , whilst still maintaining the sanctity of UK and Irish Sovereignity.

I look forward to that logic eventually sinking in with the EU and to a successful solution being engineered. What the finished solution will be I do not know, obviously. I'm a Joiner. That's what I do. That's where my daily focus is. The Irish border is not my area of expertise. I doubt it's yours nor any other poster's on this forum. Therefore I will happily leave the final details of this conundrum to those who are best positioned to deliver it for us.


(This post was edited by Yatesman on Oct 18, 2018, 7:18 PM)


broodleyhoo
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Oct 19, 2018, 7:09 AM

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Post #1884 of 1968 (834 views)
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Re: [Yatesman] EU Withdrawal Negotiations [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately

Thanks for the detailed and thoughtful reply.

However I must disagree cordially with some of the things you assert.

Firstly 'enemy'. Hmm. Given much of the language of the headlines in the populist press and the utterances of politicians like Jenkin, phrases like 'Go whistle' and Rees Mogg referring to medieval battles, I find that charge hard to substantiate. Sure Verhofstadt has said some daft things too - which basically shows there are hotheads on both sides.

Realistically, the EU are defending their position. That's what any organization does when threatened by external forces. Do you expect them to do anything less? Would you?

Lack of logic? From Day 1 the EU has stuck to its principles and set out logically and publicly the options available and the consequences flowing.

Those leading Brexit offer no such logic. They have no solution to the key problems I mention. I didn't expect you personally to have the solution : as you rightly say, neither of us are experts here.

But it's been 28 months since the vote and 28 years since UKIP meaningfully began their campaign to remove the UK from the EU.

If it was feasible to have a simple exit from the EU and to sort the Irish border of the kind you hope for, then surely in all that time such policies would have been formed and people able to deliver them ready to go.

But there aren't and there isn't, you can't outline them, nor name anyone who can, nor give examples of where such a move as the UK wants to do has been successfully carried out.

Surely this should be a big clue to show that it's not possible.

Finally on Ireland...if the situation was as it was in 1974, I'd agree with you that it would be good to go back to our mutual arrangement.

But in the 44 years since then the Irish have discovered that they can be more than an island to the west of the UK and have become respected and trusted partners of 26 other nations. Why would they give all that new-found influence up?

Glad to read that you're a 'joiner'. Me too.

To join something you give up some individual freedom - or in the case of a nation 'sovereignty' - to gain greater strength as part of a larger group.

In other words exactly what the EU gives us. Hence the fascination with why you so vehemently dislike the EU. I know it can't be either the x or the r word...so just what is it about the EU that's the bee in your bonnet?


mip
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Oct 19, 2018, 8:52 AM

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Post #1885 of 1968 (801 views)
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Re: [Yatesman] EU Withdrawal Negotiations [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately


In Reply To
...
Unfortunately the EU hasn't brought logic to the table they have brought the ( not too) hidden agenda of punishing the UK to send the message to other nations that are considering leaving that there will be a shitstorm should they also try...


Punishment... It's the rules of membership.

It seems it has taken some Brits by surprise that Brexit isn't two equal partners splitting up, it's 1 country leaving and 27 countries not leaving. That the 27 countries united are stronger than a single country isn't bullying, it's just a fact of life. You could argue it shows the value of EU membership.


(This post was edited by mip on Oct 19, 2018, 8:52 AM)


hawkwind
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Oct 19, 2018, 1:24 PM

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Post #1886 of 1968 (745 views)
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Re: [broodleyhoo] EU Withdrawal Negotiations [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately


In Reply To
Thanks for the detailed and thoughtful reply.

However I must disagree cordially with some of the things you assert.

Firstly 'enemy'. Hmm. Given much of the language of the headlines in the populist press and the utterances of politicians like Jenkin, phrases like 'Go whistle' and Rees Mogg referring to medieval battles, I find that charge hard to substantiate. Sure Verhofstadt has said some daft things too - which basically shows there are hotheads on both sides.

Realistically, the EU are defending their position. That's what any organization does when threatened by external forces. Do you expect them to do anything less? Would you?

Lack of logic? From Day 1 the EU has stuck to its principles and set out logically and publicly the options available and the consequences flowing.

Those leading Brexit offer no such logic. They have no solution to the key problems I mention. I didn't expect you personally to have the solution : as you rightly say, neither of us are experts here.

But it's been 28 months since the vote and 28 years since UKIP meaningfully began their campaign to remove the UK from the EU.

If it was feasible to have a simple exit from the EU and to sort the Irish border of the kind you hope for, then surely in all that time such policies would have been formed and people able to deliver them ready to go.

But there aren't and there isn't, you can't outline them, nor name anyone who can, nor give examples of where such a move as the UK wants to do has been successfully carried out.

Surely this should be a big clue to show that it's not possible.

Finally on Ireland...if the situation was as it was in 1974, I'd agree with you that it would be good to go back to our mutual arrangement.

But in the 44 years since then the Irish have discovered that they can be more than an island to the west of the UK and have become respected and trusted partners of 26 other nations. Why would they give all that new-found influence up?

Glad to read that you're a 'joiner'. Me too.

To join something you give up some individual freedom - or in the case of a nation 'sovereignty' - to gain greater strength as part of a larger group.

In other words exactly what the EU gives us. Hence the fascination with why you so vehemently dislike the EU. I know it can't be either the x or the r word...so just what is it about the EU that's the bee in your bonnet?


Excellent post.

You're right that the EU are protecting its members - and in EU language that is both states and citizens.
Leaving the EU would relegate British citizens to second-class status and that is the principal reason that I voted to Remain.
A government that considers the votes of the dead to be more important in deciding the future 50 years than those of every 18 and 19 year old in this country has no credibility.

There is still time to Stop Brexit

(This post was edited by hawkwind on Oct 19, 2018, 1:26 PM)


paulh66
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Oct 19, 2018, 1:55 PM

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Post #1887 of 1968 (721 views)
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Re: [hawkwind] EU Withdrawal Negotiations [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately

 
A government that considers the votes of the dead to be more important in deciding the future 50 years than those of every 18 and 19 year old in this country has no credibility.


On a thread characterised by crass comments on both sides this really does take the biscuit. Everyone's vote is equal if you hadn't noticed, and the notion that the life experience of the older generation is somehow secondary to the still-formulating views of teenagers in determining what's best for all of us is laughable. Future generations will (rightly) have ample opportunity to shape society as they see fit, and that includes reversing decisions of the past that no longer work for them. Always was and always will be.


hawkwind
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Oct 19, 2018, 2:09 PM

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Post #1888 of 1968 (709 views)
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Re: [paulh66] EU Withdrawal Negotiations [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately


In Reply To
A government that considers the votes of the dead to be more important in deciding the future 50 years than those of every 18 and 19 year old in this country has no credibility.


On a thread characterised by crass comments on both sides this really does take the biscuit. Everyone's vote is equal if you hadn't noticed, and the notion that the life experience of the older generation is somehow secondary to the still-formulating views of teenagers in determining what's best for all of us is laughable. Future generations will (rightly) have ample opportunity to shape society as they see fit, and that includes reversing decisions of the past that no longer work for them. Always was and always will be.


I thought my comment was clear but apparently not.

The dead are those that voted in 2016 but are no longer with us.

The 18 and 19 year olds (and many 20 year olds) are those that were ineligible to vote in 2016 but are eligible to vote now.

There should be a People's Vote with the option to Remain included once the negotiations are completed, and it should be the current electorate that takes that decision not the electorate of June 2016.


paulh66
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Oct 19, 2018, 2:14 PM

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Post #1889 of 1968 (700 views)
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Re: [hawkwind] EU Withdrawal Negotiations [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately

It was perfectly clear. There may be many arguments of merit to support the remain position - arguments which may yet prevail - but that isn't one of them, for the reasons given.


PaulC
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Oct 19, 2018, 4:53 PM

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Post #1890 of 1968 (650 views)
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Re: [paulh66] EU Withdrawal Negotiations [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately


In Reply To
A government that considers the votes of the dead to be more important in deciding the future 50 years than those of every 18 and 19 year old in this country has no credibility.


On a thread characterised by crass comments on both sides this really does take the biscuit. Everyone's vote is equal if you hadn't noticed, and the notion that the life experience of the older generation is somehow secondary to the still-formulating views of teenagers in determining what's best for all of us is laughable. Future generations will (rightly) have ample opportunity to shape society as they see fit, and that includes reversing decisions of the past that no longer work for them. Always was and always will be.


Everyone’s vote is equal ... but only if you voted in 2016.


paulh66
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Oct 19, 2018, 5:39 PM

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Post #1891 of 1968 (624 views)
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Re: [PaulC] EU Withdrawal Negotiations [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately

In your desperation you're confusing yourself. The referendum sought a mandate on a point of principle - in or out. The mandate was out. If the government of the day makes of mess of implementing 'out' then the flaws in that plan, along with the ageist nonsense spouted in some quarters, can't be presumed to undermine the mandate. Especially in the absence of an alternative plan from the opposition.

Rather than mixing apples and oranges (the merits of the principle versus the merits of the plan to implement it), the government's eventual deal (or no deal) on behalf of the people should be put to the people in a general election, against a concrete alternative that 'man of principle' Corbyn can't yet quite bring himself or his party to lay out. Assuming they'd eventually come up with a plan that reverts to Labour instinct (i.e. Remain), the we can consider the merits of both detailed plans put before us, rather than the more opportunistic suggestion of a second referendum hoping to capitalise on disillusionment with the Tories plan before an alternative plan is presented.

Democratic, surely? And should be a Labour landslide, no? Or is government by referendum your suggested way forward for the country?


(This post was edited by paulh66 on Oct 19, 2018, 5:41 PM)


jon b
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Post #1892 of 1968 (616 views)
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Re: [Yatesman] EU Withdrawal Negotiations [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately


In Reply To

Unfortunately Major was a terrible Prime Minister and should never have held that post. His words now carry no gravitas whatsoever. I speed read the article and thought it was the usual Remainer drivel.

I think history will judge Remainers such as he as instrumental in undermining the Uk's negotiating position by their constant cheerleading for the EU .


Major thinks leaving the EU is a catastrophic mistake and is desperately trying to prevent it. Believing that, what else is he supposed to do? His "cheerleading" is for the interests of UK future generations.

I save my contempt for a PM who decided on a Referendum to paper over cracks in his party, would allow no planning by civil servants on how to comply with a "Leave" win in the vote, and then ran away after the vote went against him.

About as bad as the Remainer who was miraculously converted into a Believer Leaver in order to become PM after Cameron's flight.

.


steve walker
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Post #1893 of 1968 (572 views)
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EU Withdrawal Negotiations [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately

I think we know what is going to happen.

Everything keeps being fudged and delayed. The 'transition period' will now be extended to 3 years so that's over 5 years after when the vote to leave happened.

By then all of the politicians directly involved will be safely secure with million pound salaries in the private sector as 'advisors' and the new bunch will be blaming them for the mess they left no matter what political persuasions they have.

We discuss and we debate but it's pointless as we all fall for this trick time after time and have done for as long as I have been interested in politics. The Tories still blame Labour even now for having to have their austerity project and if there is a Labour government you can be sure they will spend the next 10 years blaming the Tories for unnecessary austerity.
Personally I couldn't ever vote Tory because I have a moral concience and I don't believe that will ever be satisfied with a Tory government but putting that aside since this a Brexit thread you have to look at the past two years and think OMG what a cock up.


Yatesman
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Oct 19, 2018, 7:43 PM

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Post #1894 of 1968 (551 views)
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Re: [paulh66] EU Withdrawal Negotiations [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately


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A government that considers the votes of the dead to be more important in deciding the future 50 years than those of every 18 and 19 year old in this country has no credibility.


On a thread characterised by crass comments on both sides this really does take the biscuit. Everyone's vote is equal if you hadn't noticed, and the notion that the life experience of the older generation is somehow secondary to the still-formulating views of teenagers in determining what's best for all of us is laughable. Future generations will (rightly) have ample opportunity to shape society as they see fit, and that includes reversing decisions of the past that no longer work for them. Always was and always will be.


Spot on imo.

If anything needs changing it's that younger voters' votes should count less, not that I countenance that as the principle of one person one vote and all votes count equally is my position.

But maybe , just maybe we should have a system whereby anyone under the age of 25 has a half vote. 2x under 25's =1 vote

A bit like new drivers having to have P plates or driving with a more experienced adult.

Or like an apprentice plumber NOT being given a 125mm core bit to drill out at ceiling height on his first day on the job.

Like not serving alcohol to under 18's

We, as a society, have a responsibility to protect our young 'uns and as a vote is such a powerful tool, we should regulate and monitor their use of this rite of passage.

It would also make the younger voter less of a target for the exploitative overtures of some more disingenuous politicians such as we often see in the Lib-Dem and Labour parties..........

Not a bad idea, eh? Certainly worth further consideration.


paulh66
Qatar World Cup bid member!


Oct 19, 2018, 7:50 PM

Posts: 17694
Location: Surrey
Team(s): Tranmere Rovers, South Liverpool (the South will rise again), Cammell Laird

Post #1895 of 1968 (547 views)
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Re: [Yatesman] EU Withdrawal Negotiations [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately

I think hawkwind should pass you the biscuit tin..


jrev61
Man City Transfer Target!

Oct 19, 2018, 7:52 PM

Posts: 7805
Location: Northampton
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Post #1896 of 1968 (546 views)
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Re: [Yatesman] EU Withdrawal Negotiations [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately


In Reply To

In Reply To
A government that considers the votes of the dead to be more important in deciding the future 50 years than those of every 18 and 19 year old in this country has no credibility.


On a thread characterised by crass comments on both sides this really does take the biscuit. Everyone's vote is equal if you hadn't noticed, and the notion that the life experience of the older generation is somehow secondary to the still-formulating views of teenagers in determining what's best for all of us is laughable. Future generations will (rightly) have ample opportunity to shape society as they see fit, and that includes reversing decisions of the past that no longer work for them. Always was and always will be.


Spot on imo.

If anything needs changing it's that younger voters' votes should count less, not that I countenance that as the principle of one person one vote and all votes count equally is my position.

But maybe , just maybe we should have a system whereby anyone under the age of 25 has a half vote. 2x under 25's =1 vote

A bit like new drivers having to have P plates or driving with a more experienced adult.

Or like an apprentice plumber NOT being given a 125mm core bit to drill out at ceiling height on his first day on the job.

Like not serving alcohol to under 18's

We, as a society, have a responsibility to protect our young 'uns and as a vote is such a powerful tool, we should regulate and monitor their use of this rite of passage.

It would also make the younger voter less of a target for the exploitative overtures of some more disingenuous politicians such as we often see in the Lib-Dem and Labour parties..........

Not a bad idea, eh? Certainly worth further consideration.


Another barmy idea on a par with enforced fruit-picking and the use of yet to be invented technology on the Irish border. Why should those with more of a stake in this country's future have less of a say?

You are this forum's very own Baldrick with your 'cunning plans'.



jrev61


Yatesman
Reserve Team Star

Oct 19, 2018, 7:53 PM

Posts: 755
Location: A Wee Toon in the Scottish Borders
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Post #1897 of 1968 (546 views)
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Re: [hawkwind] EU Withdrawal Negotiations [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately


In Reply To

In Reply To
A government that considers the votes of the dead to be more important in deciding the future 50 years than those of every 18 and 19 year old in this country has no credibility.


On a thread characterised by crass comments on both sides this really does take the biscuit. Everyone's vote is equal if you hadn't noticed, and the notion that the life experience of the older generation is somehow secondary to the still-formulating views of teenagers in determining what's best for all of us is laughable. Future generations will (rightly) have ample opportunity to shape society as they see fit, and that includes reversing decisions of the past that no longer work for them. Always was and always will be.


I thought my comment was clear but apparently not.

The dead are those that voted in 2016 but are no longer with us.

The 18 and 19 year olds (and many 20 year olds) are those that were ineligible to vote in 2016 but are eligible to vote now.

There should be a People's Vote with the option to Remain included once the negotiations are completed, and it should be the current electorate that takes that decision not the electorate of June 2016.


Anyway you read this post it is an obvious attempt to try to turn a defeat in to a victory.

Imagine if a Man Utd started complaining about losing last years F A Cup final and wanting it played again because a couple of 15 yr olds in their youth team are now old enough to play in their senior side.......

That's the equivalent of your suggestion.


Yatesman
Reserve Team Star

Oct 19, 2018, 7:54 PM

Posts: 755
Location: A Wee Toon in the Scottish Borders
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Post #1898 of 1968 (544 views)
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Re: [jrev61] EU Withdrawal Negotiations [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately


In Reply To

In Reply To

In Reply To
A government that considers the votes of the dead to be more important in deciding the future 50 years than those of every 18 and 19 year old in this country has no credibility.


On a thread characterised by crass comments on both sides this really does take the biscuit. Everyone's vote is equal if you hadn't noticed, and the notion that the life experience of the older generation is somehow secondary to the still-formulating views of teenagers in determining what's best for all of us is laughable. Future generations will (rightly) have ample opportunity to shape society as they see fit, and that includes reversing decisions of the past that no longer work for them. Always was and always will be.


Spot on imo.

If anything needs changing it's that younger voters' votes should count less, not that I countenance that as the principle of one person one vote and all votes count equally is my position.

But maybe , just maybe we should have a system whereby anyone under the age of 25 has a half vote. 2x under 25's =1 vote

A bit like new drivers having to have P plates or driving with a more experienced adult.

Or like an apprentice plumber NOT being given a 125mm core bit to drill out at ceiling height on his first day on the job.

Like not serving alcohol to under 18's

We, as a society, have a responsibility to protect our young 'uns and as a vote is such a powerful tool, we should regulate and monitor their use of this rite of passage.

It would also make the younger voter less of a target for the exploitative overtures of some more disingenuous politicians such as we often see in the Lib-Dem and Labour parties..........

Not a bad idea, eh? Certainly worth further consideration.


Another barmy idea on a par with enforced fruit-picking and the use of yet to be invented technology on the Irish border. Why should those with more of a stake in this country's future have less of a say?

You are this forum's very own Baldrick with your 'cunning plans'.


Thankyou...........cunning plans abound on this forum, from both sides!


Towlawtom
Reserve Team Sub


Oct 19, 2018, 8:10 PM

Posts: 406
Location:
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Post #1899 of 1968 (531 views)
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Re: [Yatesman] EU Withdrawal Negotiations [In reply to] Can't Post or


In Reply To

In Reply To

In Reply To
A government that considers the votes of the dead to be more important in deciding the future 50 years than those of every 18 and 19 year old in this country has no credibility.


On a thread characterised by crass comments on both sides this really does take the biscuit. Everyone's vote is equal if you hadn't noticed, and the notion that the life experience of the older generation is somehow secondary to the still-formulating views of teenagers in determining what's best for all of us is laughable. Future generations will (rightly) have ample opportunity to shape society as they see fit, and that includes reversing decisions of the past that no longer work for them. Always was and always will be.


I thought my comment was clear but apparently not.

The dead are those that voted in 2016 but are no longer with us.

The 18 and 19 year olds (and many 20 year olds) are those that were ineligible to vote in 2016 but are eligible to vote now.

There should be a People's Vote with the option to Remain included once the negotiations are completed, and it should be the current electorate that takes that decision not the electorate of June 2016.


Anyway you read this post it is an obvious attempt to try to turn a defeat in to a victory.

Imagine if a Man Utd started complaining about losing last years F A Cup final and wanting it played again because a couple of 15 yr olds in their youth team are now old enough to play in their senior side.......

That's the equivalent of your suggestion.


That really is a pathetic crap analogy!!!!!!!!!!!!



I need to have the last word as it makes it look as if i'm always right!


Yatesman
Reserve Team Star

Oct 19, 2018, 9:14 PM

Posts: 755
Location: A Wee Toon in the Scottish Borders
Team(s):

Post #1900 of 1968 (498 views)
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Re: [Towlawtom] EU Withdrawal Negotiations [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately


In Reply To

In Reply To

In Reply To

In Reply To
A government that considers the votes of the dead to be more important in deciding the future 50 years than those of every 18 and 19 year old in this country has no credibility.


On a thread characterised by crass comments on both sides this really does take the biscuit. Everyone's vote is equal if you hadn't noticed, and the notion that the life experience of the older generation is somehow secondary to the still-formulating views of teenagers in determining what's best for all of us is laughable. Future generations will (rightly) have ample opportunity to shape society as they see fit, and that includes reversing decisions of the past that no longer work for them. Always was and always will be.


I thought my comment was clear but apparently not.

The dead are those that voted in 2016 but are no longer with us.

The 18 and 19 year olds (and many 20 year olds) are those that were ineligible to vote in 2016 but are eligible to vote now.

There should be a People's Vote with the option to Remain included once the negotiations are completed, and it should be the current electorate that takes that decision not the electorate of June 2016.


Anyway you read this post it is an obvious attempt to try to turn a defeat in to a victory.

Imagine if a Man Utd started complaining about losing last years F A Cup final and wanting it played again because a couple of 15 yr olds in their youth team are now old enough to play in their senior side.......

That's the equivalent of your suggestion.


That really is a pathetic crap analogy!!!!!!!!!!!!


Oh well, that's your opinion, many thanks for your contribution. Not sure you've added anything to the thread but there you go

I'm happy with the analogy There might be a better one but that one , by the very ridiculous concept it illustrates shares an equivalence with the concept of rerunning a referendum two years later because some kids are two years older........Now THAT idea is the epitomy of pathetic ....or maybe of desperate.

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