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EU Withdrawal Negotiations

 

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Tykeoldboy
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Mar 18, 2019, 9:25 PM

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Post #3151 of 3499 (1376 views)
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Re: [jon b] EU Withdrawal Negotiations [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately

If a precedent has been set, albeit in 1604, then the speaker is just following that precedent.


Richard Rundle
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Mar 18, 2019, 9:49 PM

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Post #3152 of 3499 (1316 views)
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Re: [Tykeoldboy] EU Withdrawal Negotiations [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately

Kind of ironic that one of the supposed benefits of leaving the EU is that the sovereignty of Parliament is "restored", yet now the Brexiteers are complaining when that same sovereignty is exercised according to the guidelines that gover it.


jon b
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Mar 18, 2019, 9:50 PM

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Post #3153 of 3499 (1315 views)
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Re: [Tykeoldboy] EU Withdrawal Negotiations [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately

On the other hand he's a bit picky over whether or not he follows precedent.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/...uk-politics-46818428


jon b
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Mar 18, 2019, 9:55 PM

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Post #3154 of 3499 (1311 views)
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Re: [Richard Rundle] EU Withdrawal Negotiations [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately


In Reply To
Kind of ironic that one of the supposed benefits of leaving the EU is that the sovereignty of Parliament is "restored", yet now the Brexiteers are complaining when that same sovereignty is exercised according to the guidelines that gover it.


Whether or not we end up leaving the EU, the Westminster Parliament looks utterly unfit for purpose in the 21st century.

.


Yatesman
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Mar 18, 2019, 10:18 PM

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Post #3155 of 3499 (1290 views)
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Re: [Tykeoldboy] EU Withdrawal Negotiations [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately


In Reply To
If a precedent has been set, albeit in 1604, then the speaker is just following that precedent.


What else was happening in 1604 that we should ressurrect today???

Bear Baiting?
Witch Burning?

Maybe you have your own preferences.

Anyway, 1604 .....410 years ago?? C'mon People!

This is desperate stuff and the Speaker isn't 'just' following a precedent, he's abusing his position for his own political ends............Never Mind, eh.
Remainers' wishes obviously trumps the Democratic Precedent of honouriing an election result.

As for the argument that it is hypocritical to deny a Peoples vote but agree Parliament can vote 3 times I completely disagree.

Voting is what Parliamentarians do. It's their job They do it Daily, Often several timesa day. It is why Parliament is there. It is why we vote for our MP's...........To go to Parliament and VOTE!!!! It's what they are paid for.

It is completely different to General Election voting (every 5 years) or Referenda( every , what? 10 years perhaps?)

So, NO, voting in Parliament by MP's doing the job for which they are paid and the public voting in National Plebiscites are not at all comparable.

Claim: Denying a Vote on May's Deal because of Ancient Precedents is justified because the Gov't has denied voters a 2nd referendum

Conclusion: BUSTED! Not comparable in any way, shape or form!


Yatesman
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Mar 18, 2019, 10:21 PM

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Post #3156 of 3499 (1275 views)
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Re: [Richard Rundle] EU Withdrawal Negotiations [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately


In Reply To
Kind of ironic that one of the supposed benefits of leaving the EU is that the sovereignty of Parliament is "restored", yet now the Brexiteers are complaining when that same sovereignty is exercised according to the guidelines that gover it.


Not at all.

We will get rid of a remote and detested layer of foreign Government and will have the opportunity to reform our own broken and unfit system of Government.

i relish the fight!


Ronsdog
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Mar 18, 2019, 11:33 PM

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Post #3157 of 3499 (1214 views)
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Re: [jon b] EU Withdrawal Negotiations [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately

 
It will only take one EU Member state to object to any extension of Article 52 to scupper the whole deal.

Could Italy yet bring the whole sorry mess to an end?

If they did it would mean we leave on WTO terms.

I'm sure the ERG are actively lobbying them as I type.Cool


Tykeoldboy
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Mar 18, 2019, 11:36 PM

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Post #3158 of 3499 (1212 views)
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Re: [Yatesman] EU Withdrawal Negotiations [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately


In Reply To

In Reply To
If a precedent has been set, albeit in 1604, then the speaker is just following that precedent.


What else was happening in 1604 that we should ressurrect today???

Bear Baiting?
Witch Burning?

Maybe you have your own preferences.

Anyway, 1604 .....410 years ago?? C'mon People!

This is desperate stuff and the Speaker isn't 'just' following a precedent, he's abusing his position for his own political ends............Never Mind, eh.
Remainers' wishes obviously trumps the Democratic Precedent of honouriing an election result.

As for the argument that it is hypocritical to deny a Peoples vote but agree Parliament can vote 3 times I completely disagree.

Voting is what Parliamentarians do. It's their job They do it Daily, Often several timesa day. It is why Parliament is there. It is why we vote for our MP's...........To go to Parliament and VOTE!!!! It's what they are paid for.

It is completely different to General Election voting (every 5 years) or Referenda( every , what? 10 years perhaps?)

So, NO, voting in Parliament by MP's doing the job for which they are paid and the public voting in National Plebiscites are not at all comparable.

Claim: Denying a Vote on May's Deal because of Ancient Precedents is justified because the Gov't has denied voters a 2nd referendum

Conclusion: BUSTED! Not comparable in any way, shape or form!


Since 1604 the speaker of the house has denied a repeat motion in the HofC on several occasions, most in the 19th century and the last time in 1920 (I think). Since then, according to John Bercow's statement to the HofC, this denial of representing the same motion has been largely down to MP's respecting that particular HofC precedent and not ding what Theresa May was trying to do.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Tb_M8-twOFU


jon b
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Mar 19, 2019, 12:37 AM

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Post #3159 of 3499 (1193 views)
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Re: [Ronsdog] EU Withdrawal Negotiations [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately


In Reply To
It will only take one EU Member state to object to any extension of Article 52 to scupper the whole deal.

Could Italy yet bring the whole sorry mess to an end?

If they did it would mean we leave on WTO terms.

I'm sure the ERG are actively lobbying them as I type.Cool


If one of the EU states did veto any extension of Article 50 then the HofC would face a final stark choice between 3 options.

1.Accept May's deal
2.Leave without a deal
3.Revoke Article 50 and Remain in the EU

I think the ERG would try to filibuster and thus block options 1 and 3.

I think they'd fail but I wouldn't put any money on it.

.


007Dale
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Mar 19, 2019, 6:35 AM

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Post #3160 of 3499 (1142 views)
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Re: [jon b] EU Withdrawal Negotiations [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately

It’s interesting technical stuff right now in the HoC.

Despite being a leave supporter, I do (on this occasion) have some sympathy with the Speakers decision.

Quite simply, the house voted down the deal. A new deal is required, one that can be voted through.

However, the speakers decision might have the opposite impact to the one being reported in the press;

1. Parliament voted for a delayed Brexit. I think this was intended to be a short extension.

2. The EU might be willing to grant a short extension only if we vote through this deal. For a complete renegotiation they may want a very long delay.

3. I’m not sure the HoC could pass into legislation a very long delay to Brexit - given the number of MP’s on both sides of the house who represent ‘leave’ constituencies and would therefore be seen to deny voters the Brexit they voted for.

1 + 2 + 3 = No deal Brexit on 29th March. It’s the only thing that no legislation is required for.


(This post was edited by 007Dale on Mar 19, 2019, 6:36 AM)


PaulC
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Mar 19, 2019, 9:02 AM

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Post #3161 of 3499 (1065 views)
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Re: [007Dale] EU Withdrawal Negotiations [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately


In Reply To

1 + 2 + 3 = No deal Brexit on 29th March. It’s the only thing that no legislation is required for.


Just how brilliant will that be?

No legislation is required for revoking Article 50.


(This post was edited by PaulC on Mar 19, 2019, 9:25 AM)


windydcfc
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Mar 19, 2019, 1:29 PM

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Post #3162 of 3499 (956 views)
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Re: [Yatesman] EU Withdrawal Negotiations [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately

So what’s worse, him enacting an ancient precedent or that fact that MP’s have already voted down May’s proposal by a huge margin. But now they could change their minds only because of threats & bribes! Or they back a deal they see as thoroughly bad simply because the perceived alternative is worse. Do we all accept mediocracy, just because May’s allowed the time to run out on this issue?


PaulC
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Mar 19, 2019, 1:37 PM

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Post #3163 of 3499 (934 views)
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Re: [PaulC] EU Withdrawal Negotiations [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately

March To Leave gathers outside the Unicorn Hotel.

You couldn't make this stuff up.




Towlawtom
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Mar 19, 2019, 5:57 PM

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Post #3164 of 3499 (801 views)
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Re: [PaulC] EU Withdrawal Negotiations [In reply to] Can't Post or

https://news.sky.com/story/vote-leave-official-brexit-campaign-fined-for-spam-text-messages-11670165

Yet again more fraudulent activity from the Leave campaign during the referendum

Further evidience the EU referendum was won by the leave campaign with lies and fraud



I need to have the last word, as it always looks as if I am right !


jon b
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Mar 19, 2019, 8:31 PM

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Post #3165 of 3499 (748 views)
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Re: [Towlawtom] EU Withdrawal Negotiations [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately

No matter how much fraudulent activity took place we're left with the reality that 17.4 million people voted to leave the EU and the Leave campaign won with more than a million majority. There's no point in pretending that that was a narrow victory. We then had a General Election in which both major national parties pledged to respect the result of the 2016 Referendum

Neither you nor I want to leave the EU and both us think it would be a calamity for the UK. But the problem remains that the 17.4 million who voted in favour of Brexit will consider it a betrayal of their democratic vote if Brexit doesn't go ahead. At the very least we'd have to have another Referendum to legitimise Remaining in the EU. Maybe we could just about justify holding that Referendum on the basis that the public should be given the chance to give their verdict on May's deal.

On Question Time the other week there was lady saying that another Referendum should be held, in which everyone over the age of 16 should be allowed to vote, and we should only leave the EU if at least 65% of those taking part voted in favour of it.

Madness. Utter madness.

Cameron messed up. It's now far too late for those Remainer precautions.

If we stay in the EU we have to hold another Referendum to legitimise it.

And, much as I hate to say it, I think we'd lose again.

.


Towlawtom
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Mar 19, 2019, 9:45 PM

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Post #3166 of 3499 (719 views)
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Re: [jon b] EU Withdrawal Negotiations [In reply to] Can't Post or

It really cracks me up seeing those jingoistic demonstrators holding those placards up outside Westminster saying "WTO rules Now"

Most of them seem to be think its going to be as simple as swapping a bag of red apples for Green apples from your usual weekly shop with everything continueing as normal.

I bet most of them don't even know what the initials WTO stand for and the rest wouldn't recognise a WTO rule if it came up from behind them and bit them on the back of the bum!

Plus their hypocracy of being perfectly happy to deal with unelected bureaucrats.

Honestly you just couldn't make it up!



I need to have the last word, as it always looks as if I am right !


leohoenig
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Mar 19, 2019, 11:31 PM

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Post #3167 of 3499 (682 views)
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Re: [Towlawtom] EU Withdrawal Negotiations [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately

Has it escaped their notice that the WTO rules were set up by even more unelected Bureaucrats than there are in Brussels?

So, as far as trade is concerned, we move from a rule taker in a group where we had a major say in the rules, to a rule taker in a larger group where we have much less say - while attempting to negotiate a new agreement with the first group which will mean taking their rules and having no say, (although we have control, we can decide not to trade with the EU)



Fat AND Pompous.
The proof that you can have too much of a good thing
Now blogging at http://www.leohoenig.com



Yatesman
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Mar 20, 2019, 12:15 AM

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Post #3168 of 3499 (655 views)
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Re: [Towlawtom] EU Withdrawal Negotiations [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately


In Reply To
It really cracks me up seeing those jingoistic demonstrators holding those placards up outside Westminster saying "WTO rules Now"

Most of them seem to be think its going to be as simple as swapping a bag of red apples for Green apples from your usual weekly shop with everything continueing as normal.

I bet most of them don't even know what the initials WTO stand for and the rest wouldn't recognise a WTO rule if it came up from behind them and bit them on the back of the bum!

Plus their hypocracy of being perfectly happy to deal with unelected bureaucrats.

Honestly you just couldn't make it up!


Not only can you not spell Hypocrisy but you don't understand the meaning of the word......But there's not much you do understand tbh

WTO is a trade body pure and simple set up to reduce barriers to trade and reduce the costs of trading and to settle disputes.

The EU is a dictatorial politcal empire and closed shop trading market that costs us taxpayers £billions to access on behalf of business.


Yatesman
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Mar 20, 2019, 12:22 AM

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Post #3169 of 3499 (651 views)
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Re: [leohoenig] EU Withdrawal Negotiations [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately


In Reply To
Has it escaped their notice that the WTO rules were set up by even more unelected Bureaucrats than there are in Brussels?

So, as far as trade is concerned, we move from a rule taker in a group where we had a major say in the rules, to a rule taker in a larger group where we have much less say - while attempting to negotiate a new agreement with the first group which will mean taking their rules and having no say, (although we have control, we can decide not to trade with the EU)


That really is total crap!

We can not unilaterally change a single EU rule and never have been able to.

The WTO is a trade organisation without the political and fiscal oppression of the EU and wiithout the political ambitions of the EU.

Happy to trade with anyone , including the EU.........business is business,old fruit.

What I don't want is to have any part of the political and imperial ambitions of the EU


steve walker
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Mar 20, 2019, 12:40 AM

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Post #3170 of 3499 (638 views)
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Re: [Yatesman] EU Withdrawal Negotiations [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately

Yatesman: you really do need to temper your attitude to other posters when posting your opinion, because that is all it is... an opinion.. no more or less valid than any other. Also I let previous posts which contained offensive languague go as you do seem to be very highly strung, if you look back you will see what I mean.

Cut it out and try to debate the issues without the language and with some degree of respect for anyone that holds a different opinion to yourself. As you have already had a ban this is a final warning.

Thankyou


Yatesman
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Mar 20, 2019, 7:23 AM

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Post #3171 of 3499 (588 views)
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Re: [steve walker] EU Withdrawal Negotiations [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately


In Reply To
Yatesman: you really do need to temper your attitude to other posters when posting your opinion, because that is all it is... an opinion.. no more or less valid than any other. Also I let previous posts which contained offensive languague go as you do seem to be very highly strung, if you look back you will see what I mean.

Cut it out and try to debate the issues without the language and with some degree of respect for anyone that holds a different opinion to yourself. As you have already had a ban this is a final warning.

Thankyou


I call a shovel a shovel.

I could have said 'I disagree' rather than ' What a load of crap', but it means the same thing. I tend to default to the more base mode of expression........It's my working class roots shining through.............We're all different. Vive La Difference!

Any how, point taken. I'll not apologise. We must protect the manicured lawn by killing the wild flowers .

Looks like Switzerland has their own 'negotiating ' issues with the EU Empire....

https://news.sky.com/story/why-the-clock-is-ticking-for-swiss-in-eu-treaty-talks-11565976


PaulC
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Mar 20, 2019, 8:05 AM

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Post #3172 of 3499 (564 views)
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Re: [Yatesman] EU Withdrawal Negotiations [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately


In Reply To

Looks like Switzerland has their own 'negotiating ' issues with the EU Empire....

https://news.sky.com/story/why-the-clock-is-ticking-for-swiss-in-eu-treaty-talks-11565976


That's what happens when you want to benefits of club membership but want to pick and choose the club rules you obey.


jon b
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Mar 20, 2019, 10:04 AM

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Post #3173 of 3499 (513 views)
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Re: [PaulC] EU Withdrawal Negotiations [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately


In Reply To
The Brexit March begins (where’s Yatesman).

Could any photo be a more fitting allegory?



Front of today's Private Eye:

Photo of Nigel Farage and a marcher in waterproofs against the weather:

Marcher "We may not make it to the House of Commons"

Glum faced Farage "Story of my life"

.


jon b
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Mar 20, 2019, 10:50 AM

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Post #3174 of 3499 (478 views)
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Re: [jon b] EU Withdrawal Negotiations [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately

And from the other perspective in the same edition:

EU-phemisms

Cartoon
Showing an EU spokesman holding a document on which is stated "EU rules out changes to Brexit Deal" whilst the spokesman says "The EU will not be engaging in constructive negotiations at this point in Brexit".

Below it:
Why start now?


Richard Rundle
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Mar 20, 2019, 12:35 PM

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Post #3175 of 3499 (440 views)
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Re: [Yatesman] EU Withdrawal Negotiations [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately


In Reply To
We can not unilaterally change a single EU rule and never have been able to.

The WTO is a trade organisation without the political and fiscal oppression of the EU and wiithout the political ambitions of the EU.

Happy to trade with anyone , including the EU.........business is business,old fruit.

What I don't want is to have any part of the political and imperial ambitions of the EU


A small price to pay for being in the most important trading bloc we could be in, for a customs union and a single market with free trade between the 28 (soon to be 27) members. Far better for business, far better for the individual. In my opinion of course.

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