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Home: Non League Football Information: History:
Essex Thames-side Challenge Trophy

 

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southend statto
First Team Star

May 20, 2019, 9:13 PM

Posts: 1954
Location: East Anglia (South Division)
Team(s): most of my local sides

Post #51 of 84 (1112 views)
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Re: [Dingo] Essex Thames-side Challenge Trophy [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately

From Leytonstone's 1949-50 and 1961-62 Handbooks:

Charity Cup info only:

Walthamstow Charity Cup
Winners 1897, 1898, 1901, 1903, 1904, 1905
Joint Winners 1899

West Ham Charity Cup
Winners 1906, 1909, 1912, 1914, 1918
Finalists 1907, 1910, 1919, 1920

London Charity Cup
Winners 1909, 1953
Finalists 1920, 1949

South Essex Charity Cup
Winners 1933

Grays and Tilbury Challenge Cup
Winners 1939

Edit: the handbook seems to give the first half of the season as the winning season I'm thinking from what I've found out, so the Grays and Tilbury is, probably, the 1939-40 season?

Essex Thames-side Senior Cup
Winners 1946, 1947, 1949, 1951
Joint Winners: 1953
Finalists: 1952, 1954, 1955, 1961

Essex Thames-side Junior Cup:
Winners: 1952, 1953, 1956

Before being re-named to Essex Thames-side Challenge Trophy, first teams played in the Essex Thames-side Senior Cup, whilst reserve sides played in the Essex Thames-side Junior Cup (later Reserve Cup).


(This post was edited by southend statto on May 20, 2019, 9:18 PM)


krffji
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May 20, 2019, 9:57 PM

Posts: 266
Location: Colchester
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Post #52 of 84 (1053 views)
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Re: [Dingo] Essex Thames-side Challenge Trophy [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately

South Essex Charity Cup 1938-39

The 1938-39 final is reported in the Essex Chronicle of 8 September 1939. Ilford beat Romford 2-1, presumably on Saturday 2 September. Pratt & Braund scored for Ilford and Sargeant for Romford.

The semis were
Ilford 2 Clapton 0 reported 28 April as played on Monday. Scorers Pratt & Winder.

Romford 3 Walthamstow Avenue 2 reported 5 May as played on Tuesday. Mudford (3) for Romford & Lewis (2) for Walthamstow



Currently researching Colchester's amateur town clubs "Before the U's" including identifying and compiling brief biogs of all first team players.
Joint author of Colchester United's Who's Who -(Breedon Books 2008).
Colchester United youth team programme editor since 2001.
Colchester United Essex Senior Cup programme editor since 2008.



(This post was edited by krffji on May 20, 2019, 9:59 PM)


Dingo
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May 20, 2019, 10:40 PM

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Post #53 of 84 (1015 views)
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Re: [krffji] Essex Thames-side Challenge Trophy [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately

That's well and truly cleared that up krffji !
With valuable assistance from Southend Statto.

I imagine New Forest will be over the moon when he see's it !


DonQuixote
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May 21, 2019, 9:32 AM

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Post #54 of 84 (971 views)
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Re: [Dingo] Essex Thames-side Challenge Trophy [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately

My oldest Romford programme is from 1929 at Ilford for an
Ilford Hospital Shield tie.

Looking at Ilford's 'wall of fame', they also won the West Ham Charity Cup,
Walthamstow Hospital Cup and Ilford Charity Shield in previous seasons, so
I'm guessing that they were all one of the same but in different guises?

And just to obfuscate the issue, there was the Sugden Cup and London
Charity cup too....

Crazy




FA Vase semi programme wanted: 2001 Taunton v Clitheroe.

FA Trophy programmes wanted: 1969-70 Any round from first season. Have many but plenty of gaps still to fill.


Dingo
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May 21, 2019, 12:32 PM

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Post #55 of 84 (923 views)
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Re: [southend statto] Essex Thames-side Challenge Trophy [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately

That Leytonstone info is really interesting,thanks for that.


In Reply To
Edit: the handbook seems to give the first half of the season as the winning season I'm thinking from what I've found out, so the Grays and Tilbury is, probably, the 1939-40 season?

That seems to tie in with what New Forest has said.

The Grays and Tilbury Challenge Cup is an interesting one as well.
I'm guessing that its the same competition that started in 1928/29,but was since known by various names ?
Including some I've come across:
Grays & District Cup
Tilbury & District Cup
Tilbury Challenge Cup
Grays & Tilbury Cup
Grays & Tilbury Challenge Cup
Grays & Tilbury District Challenge Cup
Tilbury Hospital Cup
Grays & Tilbury Charity Cup
Grays & Tilbury Hospital Cup

There also seems to be a bit of disagreement over when it finished.
It either seamless morphed into the ETT,or it continued (or was resurrected later) into the 50's.
Tricky.


Dingo
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May 21, 2019, 12:45 PM

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Post #56 of 84 (911 views)
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Re: [DonQuixote] Essex Thames-side Challenge Trophy [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately


In Reply To
Looking at Ilford's 'wall of fame', they also won the West Ham Charity Cup,
Walthamstow Hospital Cup and Ilford Charity Shield in previous seasons...


More interesting information,thanks.

No sign of the Grays & District Cup (and its other versions) on the Ilford 'wall of fame' ?
I don't know of their involvement.
How many local cups could they actually fit in ?!

As New Forest has said (and the Barking archive) Romford dipped their toe into the Tilbury Challenge Cup in 31/32.
Perhaps never to be sighted again.

Although they were original members of the ETT of course.


(This post was edited by Dingo on May 21, 2019, 12:47 PM)


DonQuixote
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May 21, 2019, 2:46 PM

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Post #57 of 84 (888 views)
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Re: [Dingo] Essex Thames-side Challenge Trophy [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately

I'm gonna hazard a guess and say they were all the same trophy
but have been bastardised because of the way things were back
in the 20s and 30s.

Most communication between clubs would have been by letter
and all it takes is one secretary to mistakenly call it cup instead
of trophy/shield et al, then the compositor just set it up in print
as such.

Apart from the usual suspects - FAC, FAAC, ESC and EAC, these
are the other competitions Romford played in down the years until
they turned semi-pro in 1959.

Again this is not complete and neither is my programme collection
and some abbreviations would differ in progs from season to season.

Amendments and additions always welcome.

1929-30
Sep 2 Barking (IHS). Sep 23 Ilford (IHS). May ?? Brentwood (RTC).

1930-31
Sep 1 Barking (IHS). Nov 1 Grays (TCC). Jan 10 GRAYS (TCC). Apr 27 Chelmsford (NPFC).
May 7 Barking (TCC) - I presume TCC was the Tilbury thingy and no idea as to what
NPFC was when it was at home.

1931-32
Apr ?? Ilford (SECC). May 5 Walthamstow (SECC, @ Leyton).

1932-33
Sep 5 Barking (SECC).

1933-34
Sep 18 Clapton (SECC).

1934-35
Apr ?? Dagenham (SECC). Apr 17 Barking (SECC, @ Ilford). May 4 Walthamstow (SECC).

1935-36
Sep ?? Ilford (SECC).

1936-37
Aug ?? Leyton (SECC).

1937-38
Sep 9 Barking (SECC, @ Ilford).

1938-39
Aug 29 Barking (SECC, @ Ilford). Sep 5 Grays (???). Sep 12 LEYTONSTONE (???).

1939-40
Sep 2 Ilford (SECC).

1945-46
Apr 25 BARKING (ETT). May 1 Grays (ETT).

1946-47
Sep 12 CLAPTON (ETT). May 8 Barking (ETT).

1947-48
Sep 15 Leyton (ETT, @ Romford). Apr 15 Barking (ETT). Apr 28 Grays (ETT, @ Barking).

1948-49
Sep 1 Leytonstone (ETT).

1949-50
Sep 8 BARKING (ETT, aband). Sep 10 Barking (ETT). Apr 6 Barking (ETT). Apr 19 Grays (ETT). May 3 Ilford (ETT).

1950-51
May 1 Leyton (ETT). May 8 Leytonstone (ETT).

1951-52
Sep 5 ILFORD (ETT). Apr 21 Barking (ETT). Apr 25 BARKING (ETT). May 2 Leytonstone (ETT, @ Ilford).

1952-53
Aug 27 GRAYS (ETT). Sep 10 Leytonstone (ETT, 51/2, @ Ilford). Apr 20 BARKING (ETT).

1953-54
Aug 26 Walthamstow (ETT, aband). Apr 8 WALTHAMSTOW (ETT). May 6 Thetford (TCC).

1954-55
Apr 11 WALTHAMSTOW (ETT).

1955-56
Apr 7 GRAYS (ETT). Apr 30 Walthamstow (ETT).

1956-57
Aug 20 Ilford (ETT, 55/6). Sep 12 Leytonstone (ETT). Apr 19 BARKING (ETT).

1957-58
Nov 30 Grays (ETT). Apr 16 GRAYS (ETT). Apr 23 Ilford (ETT). May 3 Barking (ETT).

1958-59
Aug 25 WALTHAMSTOW (ETT). Sep 1 Brentwood (EET).




FA Vase semi programme wanted: 2001 Taunton v Clitheroe.

FA Trophy programmes wanted: 1969-70 Any round from first season. Have many but plenty of gaps still to fill.


New Forest
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May 21, 2019, 3:20 PM

Posts: 105
Location: Aldershot
Team(s): Leyton then Waltham Forest now Walthamstow

Post #58 of 84 (871 views)
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Re: [DonQuixote] Essex Thames-side Challenge Trophy [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately

1936/7 31 August 1936 Leyton 1 Romford 2 (South Essex Charity Cup)


Dingo
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May 21, 2019, 5:15 PM

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Post #59 of 84 (841 views)
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Re: [DonQuixote] Essex Thames-side Challenge Trophy [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately

A lot of interesting stuff there Don.

The only thing I can spot in the ETT results, (which I imagine you already know) is that the Barking archive doesn't show the 49/50 Sep 10 Barking game (its shows them playing someone else,in the league).

With the SECC:
(apologies if you've already worked this out)

Going by the 38/39 info that New Forest and krffji gave above,Romford bt Walthamstow Ave in the s-f,and their 1st round game had to be against either Dagenham or Leytonstone (going by previous known participants),which fits your Sep 12 LEYTONSTONE (???)

Could 38/39 Sep 5 Grays (???) be the EAC ?


(This post was edited by Dingo on May 21, 2019, 7:55 PM)


southend statto
First Team Star

May 21, 2019, 8:51 PM

Posts: 1954
Location: East Anglia (South Division)
Team(s): most of my local sides

Post #60 of 84 (776 views)
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Re: [Dingo] Essex Thames-side Challenge Trophy [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately

The G&TCC was running in the 50s but i cannot remember the source (prob some club's honours page from a prog)


Dingo
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May 21, 2019, 9:12 PM

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Post #61 of 84 (769 views)
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Re: [southend statto] Essex Thames-side Challenge Trophy [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately


In Reply To
The G&TCC was running in the 50s but i cannot remember the source (prob some club's honours page from a prog)


The only place I've seen it mentioned in the 50's is on the Tilbury honours,but I'm not convinced they're accurate.
But of course any more sources would be compelling.


(This post was edited by Dingo on May 21, 2019, 9:13 PM)


krffji
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May 22, 2019, 12:10 AM

Posts: 266
Location: Colchester
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Post #62 of 84 (734 views)
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Re: [Dingo] Essex Thames-side Challenge Trophy [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately

Referring to DonQuixote’s list above the NPFC, 27 April 1931, is the (Essex) Newspaper Press Fund Cup, which appears under several variations of title from about 1923 onwards.

By 1930 Colchester had delegated it to their A team and there’s one game v Romford 6 Sept 1934, the delayed 1933-34 final, Colchester A 2 Romford 1 played at Writtle Road, Chelmsford. That won’t be Romford’s 1st team.



Currently researching Colchester's amateur town clubs "Before the U's" including identifying and compiling brief biogs of all first team players.
Joint author of Colchester United's Who's Who -(Breedon Books 2008).
Colchester United youth team programme editor since 2001.
Colchester United Essex Senior Cup programme editor since 2008.



NeilH
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May 22, 2019, 10:05 PM

Posts: 344
Location: Cambridge
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Post #63 of 84 (639 views)
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Re: [Dingo] Essex Thames-side Challenge Trophy [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately

5th September 1938 - definitely East Anglian Cup
Grays Athletic 1 Romford 0
East Anglian Cup 1st round (16 teams in 38-39)


Dingo
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May 23, 2019, 2:57 PM

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Post #64 of 84 (581 views)
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Re: [NeilH] Essex Thames-side Challenge Trophy [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately

Thanks for that Neil.


Dingo
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May 23, 2019, 3:00 PM

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Post #65 of 84 (578 views)
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Re: [DonQuixote] Essex Thames-side Challenge Trophy [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately


In Reply To
...Looking at Ilford's 'wall of fame', they also won the West Ham Charity Cup,
Walthamstow Hospital Cup and Ilford Charity Shield in previous seasons, so
I'm guessing that they were all one of the same but in different guises?


It doesn’t seem that way.
Barking often played in both the West Ham Charity Cup and the Ilford Hospital Shield in the same season.


Dingo
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May 23, 2019, 3:05 PM

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Post #66 of 84 (571 views)
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Re: [New Forest] Essex Thames-side Challenge Trophy [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately


In Reply To
West Ham Charity Cup - started in 1887 and ended in 1931 - details on Wikipedia.


Thanks for that,an impressive collection.

Interestingly,as you say the West Ham Charity Cup finished in 1930/31 and its possible that so did the Ilford Hospital Cup/Shield (both Barking and Romford never played in it again).

The following season,it looks like the South Essex Charity Cup began.


Deaf Leopard
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May 25, 2019, 7:00 PM

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Post #67 of 84 (482 views)
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Re: [Dingo] Essex Thames-side Challenge Trophy [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately


In Reply To
Thanks very much.

Its a shame this competition came to such an inglorious end.

There seems plenty of room for it now,but I guess there's not the will or desire.


Competition is being resurrected next season, with Bostik, Thurlow Nunn and Essex Senior clubs taking part, and possibly some academy sides from National League teams


Bigaitch
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May 27, 2019, 6:36 PM

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Post #68 of 84 (423 views)
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Re: [Deaf Leopard] Essex Thames-side Challenge Trophy [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately


In Reply To

In Reply To
Thanks very much.

Its a shame this competition came to such an inglorious end.

There seems plenty of room for it now,but I guess there's not the will or desire.


Competition is being resurrected next season, with Bostik, Thurlow Nunn and Essex Senior clubs taking part, and possibly some academy sides from National League teams


That is good to hear. I always enjoyed the ETT as in those days it was one of the very few domestic competitions that went to penalties without replays, and it created a bit of drama. Also many of the games would be local derbies which added a little to it.
I shall look forward to seeing how it develops.


Dingo
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May 28, 2019, 3:00 PM

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Post #69 of 84 (394 views)
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Re: [Deaf Leopard] Essex Thames-side Challenge Trophy [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately


In Reply To
Competition is being resurrected next season, with Bostik, Thurlow Nunn and Essex Senior clubs taking part, and possibly some academy sides from National League teams


Well I never.

Thats great news.
(apart from the academy sides bit)

I wonder how many clubs that will be ?
It got up to 26,I think,at its biggest.


southend statto
First Team Star

May 28, 2019, 9:37 PM

Posts: 1954
Location: East Anglia (South Division)
Team(s): most of my local sides

Post #70 of 84 (369 views)
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Re: [Dingo] Essex Thames-side Challenge Trophy [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately

The beautiful silver galleon was donated to the ECFA two years ago. With clubs asking for mid-week fixtures, it will now become an official ECFA competition, rather than a "private" one.


southend statto
First Team Star

May 29, 2019, 9:50 PM

Posts: 1954
Location: East Anglia (South Division)
Team(s): most of my local sides

Post #71 of 84 (331 views)
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Re: [southend statto] Essex Thames-side Challenge Trophy [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately

clubs asking for mid-week fixtures outside the geographical boundaries of the ETT have been invited into the County FA's Tolleshunt D'Arcy Memorial Trophy - which itself has now been freed of its geographical boundaries.


Dingo
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May 30, 2019, 7:20 AM

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Post #72 of 84 (306 views)
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Re: [southend statto] Essex Thames-side Challenge Trophy [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately


In Reply To
clubs asking for mid-week fixtures outside the geographical boundaries of the ETT have been invited into the County FA's Tolleshunt D'Arcy Memorial Trophy - which itself has now been freed of its geographical boundaries.


I'd been wondering what the geographical boundaries of the ETT might be.

I think in another thread,''15 miles of the Thames'' is mentioned.
Which works out roughly as below Chelmsford.
I guess the ECFA will stick to something similar.


ladderman
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May 30, 2019, 12:20 PM

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Post #73 of 84 (281 views)
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Re: [Dingo] Essex Thames-side Challenge Trophy [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately

Possibly a discussion for elsewhere, but with reserve team football dead and leagues a bit smaller than they've been, are we going to see these kind of cups resurface?
I've heard the isthmian league cup is going to be played on a group basis in 19/20


Dingo
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Jun 1, 2019, 12:45 PM

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Post #74 of 84 (206 views)
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Re: [ladderman] Essex Thames-side Challenge Trophy [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately


In Reply To
….I've heard the isthmian league cup is going to be played on a group basis in 19/20


I can understand it going to a group basis,if that is the case,especially for the step 4 clubs with only 38 league games.
A negative would be if those groups contained teams mainly from the same division.

82 Isthmian clubs,but not all of them enter the League Cup,77 last season I believe.
Ok,I'm going to have a go at this:
(If 77 clubs)
13 groups of 5 clubs = 65 clubs
3 groups of 4 clubs = 12 clubs
Top 2 qualify = 32 clubs
One leg only in the knockout games = finalists play either 13 or 11 matches.
(Currently the finalists play a maximum of 7 matches)


(This post was edited by Dingo on Jun 1, 2019, 12:47 PM)


steveking
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Jun 2, 2019, 12:10 PM

Posts: 732
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Post #75 of 84 (160 views)
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Re: [Dingo] Essex Thames-side Challenge Trophy [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately

The league cup will be organised on the following basis -

Velocity will continue their support of the Alan Turvey Trophy but there will be a change to the format of the competition with the division one sides playing off in ten regional groups; each club playing the other group members once. A formula will be applied to each group to determine which club will be at home and which away. The aim will be that clubs will play equal numbers of home and away games but this may not always be possible.

There will be three points for a win and one point for a draw in the group games but drawn matches will be decided by a penalty shoot out after ninety minutes with the winners awarded a bonus point. Clubs may use five players out of five nominated for the substitutes bench. Group winners will receive £500 and be placed in the knock out phase along with the 22 premier division clubs for whom entry is compulsory.

Apologies, this is getting a long way from the topic of History.


(This post was edited by steveking on Jun 2, 2019, 12:12 PM)

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