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fredkirkbytown
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Nov 24, 2008, 12:43 AM
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The talk on the East Midlands Counties League and the
Central Midlands League Forums, is that the EMCL game
between St Andrews and Gedling MW had to be abandoned
after Ref Andy Parker was Knocked out cold, when he was
punched by a St Andrews player he had sent off.
Reports say that the ref had a fractured cheekbone and
2 fractures to his jaw and spent night in hospital.
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Mlac
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Nov 24, 2008, 8:04 AM
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St. Andrews were winning 3-1 when the "incident" happened...
No matter the performance of a match official, you can't strike them! Ramifications for the player? Lifetime ban -- assault charges -- loss of earnings suit -- no doubt Andy will not be at work for a while...
http://ontheroad2008-2009.blogspot.com/
dum spiro spero
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chris41
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Nov 24, 2008, 10:47 AM
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Absolutely shocking ! How can an incident like this encourage anyone to take up refereering ?
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Ashtree RockBee
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Nov 24, 2008, 11:22 AM
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This has made Burnley's forum, which also gives the appalling statistic that 847 referees were subjected to assault last season.
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Mishi
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Nov 24, 2008, 1:26 PM
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Much as some referees can appear incompetent NOBODY deserves this!
It would be magificent if ALL OFFICIALS covering in this league went on strike in protest & did no games in protest for a month!
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PonteCarlo
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Nov 24, 2008, 1:59 PM
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I agree. We all have experienced referees who seem to have a hidden agenda against our club and seem to give everything against us, or don't seem to apply the laws of the game correctly etc. Refs have to put up with enough from the sidelines nevermind players getting constantly in their faces (like Emley's lot on Saturday) but to strike the ref is absolutely unacceptable and the player must be banned for life from playing. If it happened in the street and someone got knocked out, you'd expect the person to be locked up.
Proud spectator of real football.
Hop, hop, hopping on heaven's door
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fredkirkbytown
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Nov 24, 2008, 7:21 PM
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A leicestershire police spokesman said the
player was arrested on suspicion of asssault
and has been bailed.
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dulwich steve
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Nov 24, 2008, 8:09 PM
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Ban him for life...
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Dovecote
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Nov 24, 2008, 9:09 PM
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Ban him for life... Hadn't we better wait for him to be proven guilty of something first? -- Richard
Dear oh dear! Was the broken jaw an accident? Did his fist slip?
Incredible!
The thug has been named and shamed and will receive a life ban. Hopefully the criminal lawcourts will also see that justice is done...........
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Richard Rundle
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Nov 24, 2008, 9:20 PM
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Ban him for life... Hadn't we better wait for him to be proven guilty of something first? -- Richard Dear oh dear! Was the broken jaw an accident? Did his fist slip? .
I don't know, I wasn't there. Were you?
Of course anyone who is properly convicted (either by the courts or by FA procedures) of assault on a referee should get a sine die ban. I'm just keen on those proper procedures taking place first.
--
Richard
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Jamesie
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Nov 24, 2008, 9:51 PM
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Re: [fredkirkbytown] Ref assaulted.
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Don't know if you have to register to read this but it is covered in some detail by many AT THE GAME. CLICK HERE TO READ.
Just a note to anyone who is wondering, I am no longer a moderator of this forum due to current personal circumstances and work commitments. If you need help, contact leohoenig or Steve walker. Thank You.
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Jamesie
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Nov 24, 2008, 9:57 PM
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Just in case you can't get on, here are a few choice excerpts. A supporter, two St Andrews players and a Gedling commitee member.
The worst thing I've ever seen at a football match (and I've been to 1000's)
Fracas near end of game. Ref confers with linesman and calls one player over from each team and books them. Then calls over St Andrews No 12 and sends him off. No 12 puts his face up close to ref and says something, then turns away before swinging round and punching the ref with GREAT FORCE in the face. No 12 then jumps over fence and runs to dressing room. On arrival at door to dressing room decides he wants some more and turns round to head back onto pitch. One of St Andrews people stops him and pushes him into dressing room. Ref has been knocked out cold and is just lying on pitch. He is covered in blankets and given attention but it is a LONG time before he moves.
Divided opinion amongst spectators and players, management etc. I heard one SICKENING comment that the ref had been asking for it! Several St Andrews players were saying how disgraceful it was and one said that he would not play with No 12 again.
I myself play for St Andrews and Myself and others did not expect the incident to occur and therefore cannot see how we were supposed to have stopped the event. He also has no previous history of attacking referees so im not sure how the management could be seen as responsible for this either. The player has been with the club since youth level and was never signed on by the management in place anyway.
I myself thought the attack was shocking along with members of the management who have already said, 'He will never play for this club again'. I dont think this really matters as he will be banned from football for life for such an attack. I sincerly hope the referee is ok and makes a full recovery and there is no excuse what so ever for acting in this manner. Numerous referees have poor games and make mistakes, of which none should be subject to such treatment.
I just hope the league look at it carefully and see that it was the actions of one player, and do not punish all the other players who had fought for the victory which was only minutes away along with the management.
Big thanks to the Gedling players and supporters though who both played and supported a great game of football only for it to be ruined by 10 seconds of complete madness.
I myself aswell play for andrews and played on saturday. We all hope the ref is making a full recoverey, and we cannot defend the player from this incident. He has had no previous assaults on referees as said before, and he has been with the club for around 4 years when he was 17.
This was dreadful and could not been antcipated. I believe we should not be punished for one persons actions, however i also think that we may get punished, points deducted etc.
Again to echo a big thanks to gedling players, staff and supporters, for their help with the ref and in general for the whole situation. It was a great game.
I am part of GMW's commitee & was witness to the unbelievable incident on Saturday, I wish the Referee a speedy recovery.
My personal thoughts are that the player should have every charge & punishment possible thrown at him from both the FA & the criminal system.
St. Andrew's as a club could never of seen that coming so I hope they do not get punished as a club. The worst case senario should be a forfeit of the game but I would like to see the game replayed as before the incident it was a entertaining game for all involved.
We will as always be welcoming St. Andrew's to our ground this Saturday & returning the hospitality shown to us.
Again best wishes to the Referee & hope he can recover to come back to football, the game which we all love.
Just a note to anyone who is wondering, I am no longer a moderator of this forum due to current personal circumstances and work commitments. If you need help, contact leohoenig or Steve walker. Thank You.
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Richard Rundle
Man City Transfer Target!
Nov 24, 2008, 9:57 PM
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You don't know. Exactly, yet you came out with the utterly pointless comment that you did.
I wasn't there, but it doesn't mean I don't know what happened.
"I'm just keen on those proper procedures taking place first." JESUS!
Hang on one cotton picking minute.
Nowhere on any post I have made in this thread implies I do know what happened - the very opposite in fact. Let the procedure of justice run its course.
Now, answer the question. Were you there, and do you know exactly what happened, or are you reacting to forum and message board postings yourself?
And once again, for your benefit, anyone convicted of assaulting a referee, either by the law courts or FA procedures, deserves a sine die ban.
There, is that clear enough for you?
--
Richard
You seem to set yourself up as judge and jury here.
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Dovecote
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Nov 24, 2008, 10:46 PM
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I. Know. What. Happened.
I also know who did it and know that there's no doubt about what he did or what the effect of his actions were. Is that clear enough for you??
Richard, do you work for Bideford Social Services by any chance?
(This post was edited by Tony Kempster on Nov 26, 2008, 11:39 AM)
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UKPunk
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Nov 24, 2008, 11:08 PM
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I don't know, I wasn't there. Were you?
Of course anyone who is properly convicted (either by the courts or by FA procedures) of assault on a referee should get a sine die ban. I'm just keen on those proper procedures taking place first. You don't know. Exactly, yet you came out with the utterly pointless comment that you did. I wasn't there, but it doesn't mean I don't know what happened. "I'm just keen on those proper procedures taking place first." JESUS!
Richard is correct however when he says that before guilt is proven the facts need to be presented to the appropriate authorities and a thorough investigation conducted by those agents concerned. If the player is then found guilty I agree that he should receive a lifetime ban and the longest custodial sentence possible.
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(This post was edited by UKPunk on Nov 24, 2008, 11:10 PM)
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Mishi
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Nov 24, 2008, 11:33 PM
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Finding the perpetrator guilty is only a matter of going through the motions as far as I'm concerned. Hope he gets a fair trial after all this message board traffic, the poor mite! ;-)
But to offer a serious suggestion, regardless of hearings and court cases, how about-as soon as is feasable-St. Andrews host Gedling in a friendly, maybe a Sunday so as many fans as possible, both in their locality & groundhoppers, with all the gatemoney being donated to the referee, or a chairty of his choice, if he doesn't want it personally?
It won't change things, but it would show a heartfelt disgust of what has happened.
Grounds visited: 745
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Last game: Saturday 21st September 2019: Dulwich Hamlet 6, Bognor Regis Town 1. [ FA Cup 2nd qualifying round]
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2017/18-New English grounds: 7 & foreign: 0
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fredkirkbytown
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Nov 25, 2008, 1:11 AM
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On the "Football grounds in focus" website,on
this months photo's...Photo 20, there is a photo
of the St Andrews v Gedling MW match.
Not of the incident of course.
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Dovecote
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Nov 25, 2008, 7:52 AM
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My apologies for rising to the bait last night, but I was absolutely furious with the "he's not been found guilty yet" message. Sorry for lowering the tone.
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noprogs
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Nov 25, 2008, 8:15 AM
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Why has he been bailed?
Why isn't he in the nick pending trial which could be this week? It's not as if there aren't any witnesses.
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fredkirkbytown
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Nov 25, 2008, 8:25 AM
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Mishi, you said they should arrange a match between the teams,
with all gatemoney being donated to Andy Parker.
The return league meeting is due this saturday, although
linesmen haven't been arranged for the game.
Surprised the Leicester media haven't mentioned the
incident. well at least not on the website.
There is some mention in the Nottingham Evening Post.
But i still don't know how Andy Parker is getting on,
last we heard he spent the night in hospital.
Is he out now?
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ChesRef
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Nov 25, 2008, 6:30 PM
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This season the FA expects to recruit approx 7000 new referees.
Unfortunately it expects 8000 referees to quit the game, no thanks in part to similar people.
As a referee who has been in Andy's position, I sincerely hope he recovers quickly and doesn't let the b**tard put him off doing something he enjoys.
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dave
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Nov 25, 2008, 6:37 PM
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The thing is sometimes even if referees are right, they still get the abuse.
I have thought for a long time that it doesn't really matter what decisions the referee makes, as long as its in favour of your own team. This is my experience of playing, linesman, and watching matches.
Personally one of my hates is when you see that the referee made a right decision and the commontators moan at them for getting it wrong, even when you see on the TV yourself that they were right.
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oftenscore6
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Nov 26, 2008, 11:54 AM
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Sir Alex was only saying on TV last night how good he thought the ref at Villarreal was, so it's not all abuse......
-----------------------------------------------
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Dovecote
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Nov 26, 2008, 2:31 PM
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My apologies for rising to the bait last night, but I was absolutely furious with the "he's not been found guilty yet" message. Sorry for lowering the tone. I missed this original exchange and at the risk of reopening a heated debate I just want to say I absolutely 100% agree with the comments of UKpunk and Richard Rundle. Furthermore I would have been and still am "absolutely furious" at the attitude of Dovecote. I give him credit for apologising at presumably the first possible opportunity but he still seems to have partly missed the point. Innocent until proven guilty is the foundation stone of our legal system and all our freedoms. For me this is absolute no matter how clearly someone is guilty because to undermine this is the thin end of the wedge. Noone suggested any less punishment for the perpetrator - only that we make sure he is found guilty first.
Good grief, another one!
In this case it's quite simple:
He. Admitted. His. Guilt.
Ergo he's guilty.
And no matter how much hand-wringing you do, that's the fact. I'm sure you wouldn't be quite so defensive of his so-called rights if this vicious assault had happened to you or to someone close to you.
Are you telling me that his club is wrong to suspend him, because he hasn't been "found guilty" yet?
P.S. my apology was for using a swear word that has since been edited out by TK.
(This post was edited by Dovecote on Nov 26, 2008, 2:39 PM)
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susandy034
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Nov 26, 2008, 3:05 PM
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My apologies for rising to the bait last night, but I was absolutely furious with the "he's not been found guilty yet" message. Sorry for lowering the tone. I missed this original exchange and at the risk of reopening a heated debate I just want to say I absolutely 100% agree with the comments of UKpunk and Richard Rundle. Furthermore I would have been and still am "absolutely furious" at the attitude of Dovecote. I give him credit for apologising at presumably the first possible opportunity but he still seems to have partly missed the point. Innocent until proven guilty is the foundation stone of our legal system and all our freedoms. For me this is absolute no matter how clearly someone is guilty because to undermine this is the thin end of the wedge. Noone suggested any less punishment for the perpetrator - only that we make sure he is found guilty first. Good grief, another one! In this case it's quite simple: He. Admitted. His. Guilt. Ergo he's guilty. And no matter how much hand-wringing you do, that's the fact. I'm sure you wouldn't be quite so defensive of his so-called rights if this vicious assault had happened to you or to someone close to you. Are you telling me that his club is wrong to suspend him, because he hasn't been "found guilty" yet? P.S. my apology was for using a swear word that has since been edited out by TK.
It is quite normal to suspend someone pending an investigation, I have no problem with that.
You seem to be confusing defending someone's rights with trying to get them off punishment. I would defend anyone's rights even if they had assaulted me or someone close to me and if they were found guilty I would expect them to be punished - same as I would the person who assaulted the ref in this case.
I really don't see what the problem is - all I want is for the RIGHT person to be punished. Have you never heard of people confessing to things they didn't do? I admit in this case there doesn't seem to be much doubt but the principle is the same.
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rambler77
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Nov 26, 2008, 3:37 PM
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It is quite normal to suspend someone pending an investigation, I have no problem with that.
You seem to be confusing defending someone's rights with trying to get them off punishment. I would defend anyone's rights even if they had assaulted me or someone close to me and if they were found guilty I would expect them to be punished - same as I would the person who assaulted the ref in this case.
I really don't see what the problem is - all I want is for the RIGHT person to be punished. Have you never heard of people confessing to things they didn't do? I admit in this case there doesn't seem to be much doubt but the principle is the same.
---------------
But what happens on the sporting field of play doesn't reflect society in terms of punishments for offences and the innocent until proven guilty argument is somewhat irrelevant. If it were the case all sports would be non-contact! Look at what has happened with Ian Hulme (Barnsley) and Chris Morgan - having seen the tv footage countless times what he did is just as bad as punching someone, if not worse.
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John Mills
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Nov 26, 2008, 5:04 PM
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Re: [susandy034] Ref assaulted.
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Furthermore I would have been and still am "absolutely furious" at the attitude of Dovecote. I give him credit for apologising at presumably the first possible opportunity but he still seems to have partly missed the point. Innocent until proven guilty is the foundation stone of our legal system and all our freedoms. For me this is absolute no matter how clearly someone is guilty because to undermine this is the thin end of the wedge. Noone suggested any less punishment for the perpetrator - only that we make sure he is found guilty first.
Very well put.
I am unable to understand how anyone can be 'absolutely furious' at the suggestion of the need for due process. I am also staggered that anyone could see such a suggestion as automatically indicative of some sort of wooly-minded liberal who must be 'hand-wringing' or work for 'Social Services'.
I am as keen as anyone that the strongest possible measures are taken against anyone found to have assaulted match officials.
I personally witnessed an incident at a Step Five match around this time last year where a referee was punched to the ground by a player who proceeded to further threaten the referee's safety as he was dragged away by his team-mates. I remain amazed that the the match was not abandoned, and that within a few minutes, as the referee discussed matters with his linesmen, players were coming over and saying "Come on ref, everyone wants to get on with the game". I never found out what happened to the player despite following the online media in the locality concerned, but the afternoon left me considerably disillusioned, and it was three months until I started watching football regularly again.
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HibeeJibee
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Nov 26, 2008, 5:15 PM
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A similar incident occurred recently in the East of Scotland League, where a player (unbelievably, himself a trainee referee) punched the referee because he thought he was going to be sent off. The referee suffered a burst lip, swelling to the side of his face, and an injury to his teeth. The fixture was abandoned.
The SFA have banned him from all football for 2 years - although this was before the court had found him guilty, and he still has not received a sentence.
http://news.scotsman.com/edinburgh/Footballer-punched-referee-in-the.4526808.jp
http://news.scotsman.com/edinburgh/Footballer-fearing-red-card-punched.4531784.jp
http://news.scotsman.com/edinburgh/Footballer-who-punched-ref-gets.4579589.jp
http://thescotsman.scotsman.com/football/Twoyear-ban-for-punching-referee.4602283.jp
Sadly, respect for referees seems to be diminishing at all levels, across the UK - and this occasionally manifests itself in open assaults or attacks on officials.
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TonyD
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Nov 26, 2008, 9:17 PM
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2 years!!!! Are they having a laugh? 
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UKPunk
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Nov 27, 2008, 12:52 AM
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My apologies for rising to the bait last night, but I was absolutely furious with the "he's not been found guilty yet" message. Sorry for lowering the tone. I missed this original exchange and at the risk of reopening a heated debate I just want to say I absolutely 100% agree with the comments of UKpunk and Richard Rundle. Furthermore I would have been and still am "absolutely furious" at the attitude of Dovecote. I give him credit for apologising at presumably the first possible opportunity but he still seems to have partly missed the point. Innocent until proven guilty is the foundation stone of our legal system and all our freedoms. For me this is absolute no matter how clearly someone is guilty because to undermine this is the thin end of the wedge. Noone suggested any less punishment for the perpetrator - only that we make sure he is found guilty first. Good grief, another one! In this case it's quite simple: He. Admitted. His. Guilt. Ergo he's guilty. And no matter how much hand-wringing you do, that's the fact. I'm sure you wouldn't be quite so defensive of his so-called rights if this vicious assault had happened to you or to someone close to you. Are you telling me that his club is wrong to suspend him, because he hasn't been "found guilty" yet? P.S. my apology was for using a swear word that has since been edited out by TK.
Unfortunately, even in the eventuality that the authoritites find the perpetrator guilty, they still won't let me attack his 'nads with a 'violet wand' whilst making him listen to the latest Cliff Richard Christmas album.
Apparently the Geneva convention allows the former but decrees that listening to Cliff Richard violates all known conventions on human rights.
1-0-1-0-4-25-40-65-181-289=606
Last game: Mon 20/8/18
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Roman
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Nov 27, 2008, 1:00 AM
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I find it hard to believe that some people are so concerned about the 'rights' of a guilty man.
There's too much of this mamby pamby 'PC Brigade' crap in this country. People should be more concerned with supporting the victim instead of pandering to thugs.
He's clearly guilty, so quit with the "wait til it's proven" comments because they aren't appropriate in this instance. It's hardly a 'one word against another' case with no witnesses.
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DaveU
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Nov 27, 2008, 9:31 AM
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Because by adopting that attitude a lot of innocent people would be clogging up the prison system.
There are 10 types of people in this world. Those who understand binary and those who don't.
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susandy034
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Nov 27, 2008, 11:13 AM
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I strongly object to being told I care about the rights of a "guilty" man. Funny that all the insults come from people on one sie of the argument.
Having said that - this a football talk board and I think this discussion has run its course. Anyone who still wishes to insult me for standing up for the rights of the innocent and supporting the punishment of the guilty only can send me a private message.
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dave
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Nov 27, 2008, 11:42 PM
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I'm all in favour of giving a prison sentance to the accused if he is found guilty (which surely he will be,) but all anyone else has pointed out is his right to a fair trial. Nothing to do with the 'PC Brigade' in this country, the right to a fair trial has always existed. (Well OK it hasn't always existed, but it does now.) I actually think he will plead guilty anyway, is the case going to go to court.
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UKPunk
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Nov 28, 2008, 12:20 AM
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I find it hard to believe that some people are so concerned about the 'rights' of a guilty man.
There's too much of this mamby pamby 'PC Brigade' crap in this country. People should be more concerned with supporting the victim instead of pandering to thugs.
He's clearly guilty, so quit with the "wait til it's proven" comments because they aren't appropriate in this instance. It's hardly a 'one word against another' case with no witnesses. Roman might well remember a referee being put in hospital at Hanley Town in a match v Leek CSOB. The person found guilty, the manager of Hanley Town, went to prison, came out and resumed his football career and the FA did nothing about it. The referee quickly disappeared from the game.
This isn't about 'concern for the rights of a guilty man.' This is about the rights of every individual in the UK, regardless of whether they're a saint or a scumbag. The fault here isn't with the fact that the accused gets a fair trial. The fault is with a sentencing system that is, in my opinion, far to lenient on those who commit violent offences.
Some may find this harsh, but I would like to see these sort of offences punished with a ten year jail sentence. If the jails are overcrowded, tough. Don't commit the crime and you won't have to sleep 8 to a cell. How's that for 'PC brigade crap?'
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Roman
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Nov 28, 2008, 12:45 AM
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A fair trial goes without saying (in this country at least), my objections in this thread arise from the fact that fair trials are even mentioned at all.
A ref gets clobbered, and people are thinking "ooh, I do hope he gets proved guilty before he gets banned."
Having a fair trial is a bloody given, so why even mention it? I'm stunned.
Smallthorne - I remember the incident but wasn't aware of the outcome - a sorry affair!
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Richard Rundle
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Nov 28, 2008, 8:08 AM
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I agree in this case it seems clear cut though. Which part of "he admitted his guilt" do people on here not understand???! I'm sat here, literally shaking my head at people's pomposity.
And what part of following fair process do you not understand? Even if the person in question has "admitted his guilt", in this country we have legal systems in place for a reason.
When the proper conviction is made, then the guilty party should be punished with the full force of the law. Earlier in this thread you accused me of working with Social Services, and you have frequently accused anyone who doesn't agree with you as being "PC". Now it's "pomposity". If you had read my comments on the thread about Luke McCormick, you will see I am actually on the side of heavy punishments for serious offences.
Perhaps you are too closely involved with this particular case? Are you related to or a personal acquaitance of the referee in question as you seem to "Know. What. Happened." even though you declined to confirm that you were at the ground on the day of the incident.
--
Richard
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Dovecote
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Nov 28, 2008, 9:03 AM
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I have never used to the term "PC".
I was not at the game in question (and never intimated that I was).
I do know Andy Parker.
I do not represent his views.
It's clear that I'm wasting my time with this. You said that we shouldn't assume that Joe Preston's guilty, I said that Joe Preston admitted his guilt. It is 100% safe to say that he'll get banned by the FA and that he'll get punished by the courts.
My thanks go to Roman for demonstrating that I'm not the only one who can see through the fog.
Over and out.
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DaveU
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Nov 28, 2008, 9:21 AM
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However you try and wrap it up, we still have a legal system in this country based on the premise that a person is innocent until proven guilty, even if they have admitted guilt, so why are you arguing against a fair trial. Even the likes of Harold Shipman, Peter Sutcliffe and the Wests had fair trials, and people would have been outraged if they hadn't. So if even serial killers are allowed the due process of the law, why are you so outraged when people call for the same treatment of what is likely to be GBH at the worst.
There are 10 types of people in this world. Those who understand binary and those who don't.
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Roman
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Nov 28, 2008, 10:12 AM
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However you try and wrap it up, we still have a legal system in this country based on the premise that a person is innocent until proven guilty, even if they have admitted guilt, so why are you arguing against a fair trial. Even the likes of Harold Shipman, Peter Sutcliffe and the Wests had fair trials, and people would have been outraged if they hadn't. So if even serial killers are allowed the due process of the law, why are you so outraged when people call for the same treatment of what is likely to be GBH at the worst.
Nobody has argued against a fair trial.
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Dovecote
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Nov 28, 2008, 10:37 AM
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Ditto - nobody has argued against a fair trial. My argument is with Richard Rundle, who said that we should wait for Joe Preston to be "proven guilty" before we were allowed to say on here that he should be banned, etc. The proof of guilt is the fact that he admitted it.
By the way, using serial killers as an analogy is somewhat bizarre, in my humble opinion. Did the examples used by DaveU all admit their guilt, I can't recall.
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DaveU
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Nov 28, 2008, 12:05 PM
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Ditto - nobody has argued against a fair trial. My argument is with Richard Rundle, who said that we should wait for Joe Preston to be "proven guilty" before we were allowed to say on here that he should be banned, etc. The proof of guilt is the fact that he admitted it.
By the way, using serial killers as an analogy is somewhat bizarre, in my humble opinion. Did the examples used by DaveU all admit their guilt, I can't recall.
I thought the reaction to Richard's post was over the top. It seems it's OK to feel righteous anger and make judgements about something we only know about second hand, but for someone to express reservations about that sparks a ridiculous amount of outrage. The point is, that all we know about the incident is what we've read on the internet, and while everyone is entitled to feel outraged about the incident, surely we also have the right to reserve judgement without sparking off the kind of heated disagreement that has been expressed on this forum.
As for my analogy, I was just using extreme examples to demonstrate that however severe the accusations the accused is always entitled to a fair trial. Can't really see what is bizarre about that.
There are 10 types of people in this world. Those who understand binary and those who don't.
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Geoff
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Nov 28, 2008, 8:01 PM
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I agree that " a person is innocent until proven guilty, even if they have admitted guilt" so give the guy a fair trial then when he has been found guilty the courts should send him down for several years and the F.A. should ban him from all football grounds in the UK for life, whatever the claimed provocation or mitigating circumstances.
The problem is that there is a real probability that, even if he is guilty, he may get off with a police caution (so no court appearance) and be back playing again in a couple of years.
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UKPunk
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Nov 28, 2008, 9:18 PM
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I agree that " a person is innocent until proven guilty, even if they have admitted guilt" so give the guy a fair trial then when he has been found guilty the courts should send him down for several years and the F.A. should ban him from all football grounds in the UK for life, whatever the claimed provocation or mitigating circumstances.
The problem is that there is a real probability that, even if he is guilty, he may get off with a police caution (so no court appearance) and be back playing again in a couple of years. And this is the reason why these incidents continue to occur. I'm sorry if this offends anyone but I'm all in favour of squeezing in as many violent offenders as needs be in order to get them off our streets. As far as I'm concerned all this 'human rights for prisoners' crap is half the reason why so many of them re-offend. If they knew they'd be breaking their backs doing real work for 5 days a week and then going back to a cell with no TV, radio, or any other 'luxuries' they'd be more inclined to follow the rules like the rest of us.
And before anyone comes back with the 'deprived background' excuse let me say this. I sympathise with anyone who has had a sh*tty upbringing. But that isn't an excuse to go about making other peoples lives hell. It's about time the authorities stopped spending their time and our money worrying about the 'rights' of these people and use those resources to support the victims of violent crime.
I think you'll turn out to be right Geoff. He'll get a slap on the wrist, return to the game, and the referee will walk away. And I couldn't blame him if he did.
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bspittles
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Nov 29, 2008, 9:50 AM
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I hesitantly agree with eldumpo. The actions we take (whether in the heat of the moment or net) are very different at 18 than at, for example, 25.
By that time, people have generally learned to be more responsible, more aware of the consequences of their actions and have different priorities in their lives. At 18, football might mean everything to this player, at 25 he may have a family and a career.
How many people on this board can honestly say that, aged 18, they behaved completely responsibly (and I'm not talking about staying within the law, I mean general decision making).
The only problem with a timed ban is I believe they can be challenged part way through, whereas a "sine die" ban cannot be appealed. Not sure where I've picked up on that. If the decision was mine, I'd be asking the ref (the victim) for his opinion.
(This post was edited by bspittles on Nov 29, 2008, 9:51 AM)
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bspittles
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Nov 29, 2008, 10:42 AM
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I hesitantly agree with eldumpo. The actions we take (whether in the heat of the moment or net) are very different at 18 than at, for example, 25. you have found the secret formula..........no one plays football till they are 25 Sorted
Personally, I hoping they'll extend that to 45. I might still make it as a professional!
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noprogs
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Nov 29, 2008, 10:53 AM
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Yes we do have legal systems in this country for a reason - to create work for itself
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Geoff
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Nov 29, 2008, 11:10 PM
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I'm sorry bstittals but if you either do not know that thumping a ref is wrong or cannot control your temper well enough not to do so by the time you are 18 then you are unlikely to be able to do at 25, 35 of 45.
At 18 you can vote, marry, have children and generally have complete freedom of choice and, in return for that freedom you must accept full responsibility for the things you do, that is the deal.
I would agree that if the player was a junior or youth player there would be an argument for a fixed ban but once you move up to adult football you should be treated as a adult and behave like one. If you do not you must take the consequences and if that means you can no longer take part in football so be it. How important football is to you is not relevant. I suggest that anyone who smacks a ref does not see football as that important in their life anyway, otherwise they would have more respect for the game
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UKPunk
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Nov 29, 2008, 11:41 PM
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Not only do I agree with all of the above from Geoff, I'd also like to point out that one punch can, in some circumstances, kill. Would those posters who seem to be so forgiving change their opinion of life bans if such an outcome should occur in future?
I would also like to point out that at 18 I was no more inclined to whack a ref' or anyone else than I am now at 45. For a start my Dad would have killed me. Besides which I'd been brought up to know that throwing punches at people, whether ref's or otherwise, unless physically threatened myself, is wrong.
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bspittles
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Nov 30, 2008, 2:01 AM
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I'm sorry bstittals but if you either do not know that thumping a ref is wrong or cannot control your temper well enough not to do so by the time you are 18 then you are unlikely to be able to do at 25, 35 of 45.
I think there's a difference between "knowing it is wrong" and doing it anyway in the "heat of the moment".
In my mind, there are three reasons for the FA to ban some-one (or the courts to hand down a sentence):
a) punishment - so that the guilty party understands the magnitude of what they've done.
b) public safety - so that the guilty party doesn't do it again.
c) deterrent - to make others think twice before doing something similar,
All of the above play some part in the process.
So will a 7 year ban (for example) be a long enough punishment so that the magnitude of the crime is understood? I would have thought so. The player probably understands it already.
Will a 7 year ban stop the player re-offending? Again, I would have thought so, for the reasons given in my earlier post. (You're right, people can get married at 18 - my younger brother did, then got divorced within a year and now admits to an error of judgement - that's the poor decision making I mentioned earlier. 18 year olds can also drive, but are far more likely to get caught speeding or be involved in an accident in which speed plays a part than a 25 year old. See the pattern?)
Finally, will it be a deterrent? I think the attack was so appalling that others don't really need to be deterred, however 7 years to an 18 year old is a very long time indeed - most wouldn't know what they'd be doing in three years time.
I'd still like to get the ref involved though. I believe in the States, criminals can't be granted parole without the agreement of their victim, maybe that would be worth considering?
Finally, please grant to me the courtesy of getting my name right - I know it's tricky, but use cut and paste...
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jimmyjazz
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Nov 30, 2008, 8:25 AM
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I don't believe a 'heat of the moment' action should have any bearing, if only so it sends out the right message to other players.
Not in this particular instance , but going forward I personally feel that the FA should make it clear that both the club and the manager should also be held responsible in such circumstances for 'not controlling their players'.
Had a spectator punched the referee the club would expect to be punished so why should it be any different with one of their 'employees'?
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Geoff
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Nov 30, 2008, 10:40 AM
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My apologises for my discourtesy bspittles, it was not intended.
I remain unconvinced by your arguments however, I don’t know how many 18 year olds you know but I work with literally hundreds people of this age in my part time job and I can assure you that they would find your opinion that they should be treated more like a naughty child rather than responsible adults because they are too young to know better, very insulting indeed.
Personally I would rather err on the side of caution than take the chance that your "thoughts" on the matter could be wrong and a shorter ban could be seen as not taking this attack as seriously as we should,
Referee’s are leaving the game in droves. The game can do without players who physically attack referees, it cannot do without the men in black. It is essential that the message is clear and unambiguous, if you physically attack a referee you are not needed in football and the game is better off without you.
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Mad Bill
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Nov 30, 2008, 3:19 PM
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How's this for a thought? Anyone convicted of striking a referee should be banned sine die, regardless of age.
The future of the game at our level, relying as it does on a supply of referees, is far more important than sadly having to deprive a few people who, for whatever reason, can't control their tempers, of the pleasure of playing football. They can always find a rugby club to welcome them.
The right to play a particular sport is, when all's said and done, not one of the major human rights, and everyone who isn't punished as severely as possible becomes a precedent for the lenient treatment of the next thug.
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burgesshillbee
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Dec 1, 2008, 8:34 PM
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As this game was played below Step 4 the FA wont be responsible for dealing with the player his local County FA will be. They will have to follow FA Guidelines and should have suspended him straight away until his case is dealt with. In normal cases this should be within 28 days i believe. The player can ask for his case to be heard at a later date than this if it also becomes a police case and can ask to wait until the police case has been dealt with however he will remain suspended from playing. His ban should be a minimum sine die 5 years no review ,it might be 7 years. Also when that time has elapsed he cannot start playing straight away he would have to requset his County FA to lift the ban.
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Referee
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Dec 3, 2008, 10:39 AM
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Sine die bans wouldn't be a bad start but I can sympathise with the view that might be too severe in some cases (especially on a sliding scale of "assault").
Us referees need to feel somebody is on our side though !
Recent case - county FA has banned a player reported as having assaulted a referee for 35 days !!! There are some disgruntled refs in our area particularly the one who was assaulted.
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Veteran
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Dec 3, 2008, 1:02 PM
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Re: [Referee] Ref assaulted.
[In reply to]
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According to the West Riding County FA website the recommendations for dealing with assaults on match officials are :
Recommended punishments for a person found guilty of an assault upon a match official are follows and cover football at all levels of the game: (a) (i) Common Assault 182 days suspension plus £150 fine (ii) Common assault by way of spitting at or on a match official 1 year suspension plus £150 fine (b) Assault causing or attempting to cause bodily harm Sine die suspension with no review to be considered under a period of 5 years plus £250 fine (c) Assault causing serious bodily harm Permanent suspension (see Section 1.9)
I have several old county handbooks with similar provisions so I would imagine these are fairly standard throughout the country. However they are only recommendations but in even in that light the 35 day punishment sounds remarkably lenient.
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burgesshillbee
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Dec 3, 2008, 9:37 PM
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All i can say about only 35 days given is that either the County FA have failed to read the report properly or that the referee did not indicate an assualt on himself just violent conduct by a player towards another player. Its hard to see how only 35 days can be given as all County FA'S should follow the FA Regs and suspend the offender immediatley if its indicated that a player has assulated a referee or another participant ie another player or manager etc
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trevor56
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Dec 4, 2008, 10:27 PM
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i must be the only one who does'nt think this lad should be banned.he's obviously very passionate player.wish more players were like him.not saying everybody should hit the ref though.i think what happened here is the red mist descended & he just "lost it".maybe someone should arrange anger management lessons.
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Dovecote
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Dec 5, 2008, 11:24 AM
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i must be the only one who does'nt think this lad should be banned.he's obviously very passionate player.wish more players were like him.not saying everybody should hit the ref though.i think what happened here is the red mist descended & he just "lost it".maybe someone should arrange anger management lessons.
Are you his dad? What utter drivel.
Andy Parker has spoken to the local press:
THE Charnwood Sunday League’s ‘referee of the year’ for last season who had his jaw broken in an attack by a player is still encouraging budding referees.
Andy Parker, 50, was officiating the East Midlands Counties League encounter between St Andrews and Gedling Miners Welfare on November 22 when he was left unconscious by an irate player’s vicious punch.
He now faces months of treatment to correct his depressed and fractured cheekbone.
“I hope it doesn’t put people off,” the former player and Birstall United coach told the Echo. “I have been in football for 44 years and a referee for seven and I have never seen anything like it. You hear about these things happening abroad but you never think it could be yourself that it happens too. It should not have happened the once however.
“Hopefully players will see this and what might happen to the person who did it and they will think twice about doing something similar.
“I’m going to be out of action from refereeing until January as I can’t really run around while my jaw is wired up. Then I’m going to have to sit down with my wife and discuss whether I should continue or not.”
The Charnwood Sunday League’s referees secretary Ian Stanbridge has contacted Mr Parker a number of times.
“The numbers of referees is in decline for various reasons,” he said. “And abuse is one of the main problems be it physical or verbal.
“We have the respect campaign ongoing but I don’t think it goes far enough. It comes right from the top and if people see players in the Premier League abusing the referee then they think they can do the same.
“This is an isolated case thankfully but no referee in the world deserves this.”
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Unicorn
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Dec 5, 2008, 3:09 PM
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I am sure i have heard that you can no longer ban a player sine die because of the human rights aspect.One of those European rules again.
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blackdouglas
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Dec 5, 2008, 6:16 PM
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What was the punishment dished out to the player who assaulted the referee in (I think) a Leighton v Thame game in the early days of this decade, ie before the "carve up"? I've tried googling it without much luck.
That's the best indicator at what sort of sentence should be dished out to this offender.
Northwood, Threave Rovers, Arsenal, Rangers (the real ones, NOT qpr),Watford, Rochdale, queen of the south and a few others.
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Unicorn
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Dec 5, 2008, 7:05 PM
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So you are totally sure thats not right.
If so ok. Or are you saying that should not be the case and disagree if it is right.
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leohoenig
Administrator
Dec 5, 2008, 9:00 PM
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I have brought the post back, having removed the objectionable stuff about social workers
This is a football board - keep to topic.
Fat AND Pompous.
The proof that you can have too much of a good thing
Now blogging at http://www.leohoenig.com
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StokePriorAndy
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Dec 6, 2008, 1:08 AM
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So you are totally sure thats not right.
If so ok. Or are you saying that should not be the case and disagree if it is right.
Totally sure it's not right.
There is a different aspect to banning professional players where the game is their livelihood. In that case they might challenge a ban as being a "restraint of trade" but that's a challenge in English Law rather than European and it would be up to the courts to judge on the basis of the evidence.
Also, I was aware of a player, Wes Joyce who is now at Malvern being banned "sin die" and is now playing again for Malvern having served a prison sentence and what turned out, I believe, to be a 99 game ban from football. Wes used to play for Rovers in his early days and I would describe him as "troubled", in my opinion. Also, in my opinion, since his prison sentence, apparently for assualt of one form (I'm not sure which) or another he appears to be a reformed person and has proved himself worthy of a second chance. I only know a couple of conflicting stories of the offence he was imprisoned for so I won't expand here as I'm not 100% sure of my facts.
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MattRamLives
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Dec 6, 2008, 6:24 PM
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As normal I see both sides.
I have a conviction (wrongly IMO) without details I was bruised and injured - the injured party was nt injured but hey - and now I can't work in many jobs though anyone who knows me would have no qualms of me teaching, coaching or babysitting etc.
How many people on here have been in a fight - stats say around 65% but of course vary - assault is a broad term as well.
Either we allow people some chance of rehabilitation or not - or send me to Oz.
Some leopards change their spots some don't. I ve been punched as a player and threatened as a ref - yes a punishment is in order and I feel the law should apply on the field as it does off it, but is football a different case? should someone never play football again when they can walk the streets and or take up another sport - I guess the FA have some right to make their own laws and this case appears to be a very serious and extreme case.
I guess 'policing' the return of a player after a serious incident is at lower levels is impratical but call me a lilly livered liberal but I do think people are worth a second or more chance.
Again I would stress that my belief that there are so many people on here who could not have had a criminal conviction for something is frankly laughable and unbelievable, but you get ready to cast your stones anyway.
This post is not intended in anyway to distract from the horrific incident that started this thread - I just feel those who have post views similar to mine are pretty much bound to shouted be down, but trust me get convicted of the crimes I am sure many of you have committed and you may look at it slightly differently.
and remember - no women allowed at the stonings (even with beards)
(This post was edited by MattRamLives on Dec 6, 2008, 6:32 PM)
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forestman
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Dec 10, 2008, 12:01 PM
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Just read this thread and was totally unaware of this incident but think maybe a sense of realism be brought to this very emotive subject. I speak as a former referee who was once assaulted by a player who i sent off, way back in the 80's, the assault on me was not as serious as this one only because the players teammates managed to restrain him from doing any serious damage. Whille it might be clear to all who were there that he is guilty he must go through the 'due course of law' process, both FA and legal law, and until that time is 'innocent until proven guilty' as is the premise by which our society lives. When and if found guilty then both the FA and Legal laws MUST be fully enforced.
As a matter of interested the assault on me did not stop me from continuing refereeing which i did until family and work commitment, and of course old age (just cant seem to run anymore) stopped me, and i enjoyed many games after that incident.
Incidentally while the law never got involved the FA did ban the player sine die though i suppose its a bit odd but myself and the player concerned are now great friends
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forestman
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Dec 11, 2008, 2:14 PM
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Just a matter of point, in my case the player concerned hes never applied to get his sine die ban lifted and is still banned, but by his own choice
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