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Brexit negotiations

 

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Chris1963
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Apr 14, 2017, 10:40 PM

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Post #376 of 446 (2286 views)
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Plus, Scotland might well fail the EU's entry standards - they will take more than they contribute, and Germany will not want 'an extra mouth to feed' at the table.


I sometimes wonder how people in England are informed about Scotland.

I'm guessing it is by the London media which is singularly clueless of anything happening furth of the M25.

From your post you would think Scotland was some kind of pauper nation. The facts are rather different:

Scottish GDP is higher than the UK's. Were it not for London, which is effictively a city state, and which is a black hole for public spending, Scottish GDP is higher than England's.


The list looks impressive but if they are going to include both Scotland and the UK in it, then logically they should have included England in it as well.


PaulC
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Apr 14, 2017, 11:13 PM

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Post #377 of 446 (2260 views)
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Looks impressive, but what happens when the oil and gas runs out?

The following quote is from The Spectator (August 2016 Issue):
. This week, the Scottish government published figures for its national finances. They show that the Scottish government spends £127 for every £100 it raises in tax — a ratio unequalled anywhere else in the developed world. It can do this because so much extra money is sent up from England. For every £100 spent per English head, £120 is spent on a Scottish one.'

Hmmm....


Thank you for confirming my point about the cluelessness of the London media when it comes to Scotland and of the gullibility of those who believe it.

1 the Scottish Govt doesn't raise any tax. The Scottish economy contributes about £60 billion tax to the Westminster Exchequer.

2 The Scottish Government gets back £27 billion from WM and spends £27 billion.

3 From 1 and 2 above you can deduce that the claim that the SG "spends £127 for every £100 it raises in tax" is complete and utter nonsense - symptomatic of the economic illiteracy of the London media when they pontificate about Scotland.

Any "spending" above £27 billion is simply the charge to Scotland of a per capita share of WM spending regardless of where it is spent.

So Scotland is billed for a 9% share of all the spending in London for central government administration. London gains, Scotland is billed.

We already have a parliament funded out of the £27 billion. We won't be paying for WM after independence

Scotland is billed for a 9% share of the cost of running the BBC. Hardly any of this is spent in Scotland. London/Manchester gain, Scotland is billed. More savings and/or job creation after independence.

Scotland is billed for 9% of the cost of all the UK national museums and galleries - again, mainly in London. London gains, Scotland pays. We have our own national galleries funded out of our £27 billion.

Independent Scotland's spending on Defence will be far less than its 9% share of UK spending.

No longer will Scotland be charged for London projects like the Olympics and Millenium Dome.

I bet your London media don't tell you that, do they?


(This post was edited by PaulC on Apr 14, 2017, 11:20 PM)


PaulC
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Apr 14, 2017, 11:18 PM

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Post #378 of 446 (2256 views)
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The list looks impressive but if they are going to include both Scotland and the UK in it, then logically they should have included England in it as well.


Why - is England seeking independence?

Of course, take Scotland out of the UK figure and rUK is even lower than the UK figure.


MrTangerineMan
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Apr 14, 2017, 11:23 PM

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Post #379 of 446 (2250 views)
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'Independent Scotland's spending on Defence will be far less than its 9% share of UK spending.'

Right, so when the jobs at Faslane/Trident go then all will still be rosy?

Oh, let me guess, of course it will because the London media and the Scottish media are always honest and truthful?

If you really think that you can do it, then fine, I am happy to be proven wrong.

Have you considered what will happen if:

a) You are denied EU membership in the future?
b) How you will be able to defend yourself in case of attack?
c) What travel arrangements will be necessary for people and goods? Will the trains have to be checked at Carlisle/Berwick by Customs and Immigration Officers? Will there be Border Checks on the M74/A1?
d) You run out of money and England says no?
e) People protest when they no longer get free prescriptions?

I could go on, but you get the picture.

If by some way Scotland can do it against the odds and flourish then great (I also hope that you can eradicate poverty north of the border on just Scottish money).

I remain sceptical though.


MrTangerineMan
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Apr 14, 2017, 11:26 PM

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Post #380 of 446 (2248 views)
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English Democrats are keen for England to have independence.

Funnily enough, Wales, Northern Ireland and Scotland don't like that idea!


PaulC
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Apr 14, 2017, 11:39 PM

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Post #381 of 446 (2241 views)
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'Independent Scotland's spending on Defence will be far less than its 9% share of UK spending.'

Right, so when the jobs at Faslane/Trident go then all will still be rosy?

Oh, let me guess, of course it will because the London media and the Scottish media are always honest and truthful?

If you really think that you can do it, then fine, I am happy to be proven wrong.

Have you considered what will happen if:

a) You are denied EU membership in the future?
b) How you will be able to defend yourself in case of attack?
c) What travel arrangements will be necessary for people and goods? Will the trains have to be checked at Carlisle/Berwick by Customs and Immigration Officers? Will there be Border Checks on the M74/A1?
d) You run out of money and England says no?
e) People protest when they no longer get free prescriptions?

I could go on, but you get the picture.

If by some way Scotland can do it against the odds and flourish then great (I also hope that you can eradicate poverty north of the border on just Scottish money).

I remain sceptical though.


Faslane - about 500 jobs involved. Many will be transferrable to conventional Defence work.

Defence Scotland will spend as a percentage of GDP the same as other similar sized nations. They defend themselves just fine.

EU Why would a wealthy nation, with the EUs greatest oil reserves, the EUs greatest fisheries reserves, the EUs greatest wave/wind energy potential be refused entry into the EU?

What border controls will there be between UK and Ireland? UK govt intending there should be none. Why would Scotland/rUK border be different? Last month I drove between France and Switzerland - there were no border controls.

Why would one of Europe's wealthiest nations 'run out of money'?

Why would free prescriptions stop? A minor cost. Does the London media ever tell you that 90% of English prescriptions are free? I bet they don't.


(This post was edited by PaulC on Apr 14, 2017, 11:51 PM)


PaulC
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Apr 14, 2017, 11:41 PM

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Post #382 of 446 (2239 views)
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English Democrats are keen for England to have independence.

Funnily enough, Wales, Northern Ireland and Scotland don't like that idea!


Eh? Any evidence for Scotland? I do know the only Westminster Psrty in favour of an English parliament is the SNP.

It would be wonderful to see England fully accountable for its spending, as Scotland is. It would be great to see England allocated a block grant and having to stick to it, as Scotland does,


(This post was edited by PaulC on Apr 14, 2017, 11:44 PM)


MrTangerineMan
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Apr 15, 2017, 12:43 AM

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Post #383 of 446 (2210 views)
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     Re: [PaulC] Brexit negotiations [In reply to]   or Reply Privately

A June 2016 Forbes article states this about Scottish Independence (so an American production, not an anti-Scottish Cockney-Mafia piece):

'There's a certain piquancy about what is happening in Scottish politics at the moment. Nicola Sturgeon, the leader of the Scottish Nationalist Party, is insisting that as Scotland voted to remain inside the European Union then that wish must be granted. To the point that there should be another referendum on Scottish independence and then the country could leave the United Kingdom in order to join that EU. There're a number of problems with this, including the point that the SNP don't actually want this to happen, not if they think about it they don't. Others include the fact that the system just doesn't work that way and further, the EU wouldn't let Scotland in anyway. Not as it is at present - and that's exactly why the SNP really just don't want what they say they want.

That the system doesn't work this way has been explained by the EU itself. There is no easy way for Scotland to get in. It cannot slide through by saying it was already in thus should have an easy time of it or anything. The following quote from the Mail on Sunday (sorry chaps!) says:

"The EU yesterday dealt a devastating blow to Nicola Sturgeon’s new bid for independence – by ruling out any prospect of Scotland retaining its membership when Britain leaves.

After the Brexit vote, the SNP leader said she was seeking ‘immediate discussions’ with Brussels to ‘protect Scotland’s place in the EU’.
But The Mail on Sunday can reveal that civil servants in Brussels have already ruled that the whole of the UK must exit the EU following Thursday’s shock vote."

We're all going and "we all" includes that Scotland which in aggregate voted against doing so. What this means is that Scotland will need to have that second referendum. And I think I speak for many if not most English when I say that if they want to leave well, goodbye and good luck. Also that they're going to need that good luck. For the next stage would obviously be to join the European Union, as they say they want to.

In one sense this isn't all that much of a problem. The law is already concordant with EU law, the various institutions are fine and so on. But the economics doesn't work. In order to join the EU you've got to have a budget deficit of 3% of GDP or less or be obviously (which allows for some fudging) moving in that direction. And Scotland, now that oil has plummeted, simply is not there. It's difficult, given the intertwining of British and Scottish accounts to get it exactly right but reasonable estimates have the Scottish alone budget deficit at 8 to 10% of GDP.

At which point the EU won't let Scotland in. Not unless they do some fiscal contraction amounting to a good 5% or so of GDP. That is, fiscal contraction very much worse that that imposed by "The Tories" which the SNP are complaining so bitterly about. And that's why the SNP don't actually want what they're claiming to want, independence and then EU entry. Because imposing that sort of austerity on their own nation, when they are obviously in charge and responsible, would kill them as a political party.

To add a little more joy - on entering the EU Scotland would have to promise to adopt the euro at some future date. Again, something they don't want to do in the least.

So we should take much of this calling for a second referendum as being just political posturing. Because the EU simply would not accept an independent Scotland as a member under the current economic dispensation. And there's absolutely no domestic desire whatsoever to change that glaring budget deficit currently being funded by the English.'

However, if you are dead-set on Scotland becoming independent then I guess that debate is futile. All I can hope for is IF you get your divorce from the UK you don't come crying back after six months.

A permanent spilt (like Brexit) is exactly that - a permanent split.


PaulC
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Apr 15, 2017, 8:14 AM

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Post #384 of 446 (2164 views)
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     Re: [MrTangerineMan] Brexit negotiations [In reply to]   or Reply Privately

An American magazine and the Mail on Sunday is your evidence.

Umm, OK.

I see the Mail on Sunday thinks a share of Westminster!s total spending means the same as Scottish spending. Doh!


(This post was edited by PaulC on Apr 15, 2017, 8:18 AM)


PaulC
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Apr 15, 2017, 8:35 AM

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Post #385 of 446 (2159 views)
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Meanwhile Hurricane Energy announces the discovery of a billion barrels of oil in Scottish waters, much of which remain unexplored.

http://www.economiccalendar.com/...it-in-the-north-sea/


garethwrexy
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Apr 15, 2017, 2:40 PM

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Post #386 of 446 (2118 views)
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2018 be interesting year as Brexit talks reach the critical stage



wrexham fc fa trophy winners 2013 !


MrTangerineMan
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Apr 15, 2017, 6:53 PM

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Post #387 of 446 (2096 views)
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Unfortunately I did have to mention 'that' publication.

There's more 'evidence' online, but as it doesn't fit your criteria then no doubt it will construed as fake news/London-centric garbage.

Just riddle me this then:

If Scotland does get its independence, but is denied a place in the EU, what then? Will you demand that the EU take you in - will you have to resurrect William Wallace and march on Brussels in order to get your way?


Tykeoldboy
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Apr 15, 2017, 7:47 PM

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Post #388 of 446 (2084 views)
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Unfortunately I did have to mention 'that' publication.

There's more 'evidence' online, but as it doesn't fit your criteria then no doubt it will construed as fake news/London-centric garbage.

Just riddle me this then:

If Scotland does get its independence, but is denied a place in the EU, what then? Will you demand that the EU take you in - will you have to resurrect William Wallace and march on Brussels in order to get your way?


They will become a province of Canada Crazy



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PaulC
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Apr 15, 2017, 9:56 PM

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Post #389 of 446 (2053 views)
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Unfortunately I did have to mention 'that' publication.

There's more 'evidence' online, but as it doesn't fit your criteria then no doubt it will construed as fake news/London-centric garbage.

Just riddle me this then:

If Scotland does get its independence, but is denied a place in the EU, what then? Will you demand that the EU take you in - will you have to resurrect William Wallace and march on Brussels in order to get your way?


Why do you think Scotland would be denied a place in the EU?

You confirm a theory held by many in Scotland that the only people who took Braveheart seriously were the English.


kirby knitters
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Apr 15, 2017, 10:16 PM

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Post #390 of 446 (2040 views)
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In Reply To
Unfortunately I did have to mention 'that' publication.

There's more 'evidence' online, but as it doesn't fit your criteria then no doubt it will construed as fake news/London-centric garbage.

Just riddle me this then:

If Scotland does get its independence, but is denied a place in the EU, what then? Will you demand that the EU take you in - will you have to resurrect William Wallace and march on Brussels in order to get your way?


Why do you think Scotland would be denied a place in the EU?

You confirm a theory held by many in Scotland that the only people who took Braveheart seriously were the English.

Did you take it seriously as an Englisman?


Fanatic
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Apr 15, 2017, 10:33 PM

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Post #391 of 446 (2032 views)
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Agree as I said Brexit could be start of great things, even poor areas off the uk could do well


I'm not sure that's going to be the case. EU funds tend to be directed towards poorer areas of the UK like Cornwall and south Wales. When it's solely down to our own government, I am not convinced that will continue. The current government seems to be focussing investment in marginal constituencies (in Suffolk the only two areas getting any major infrastructure improvements are Ipswich and Lowestoft, both of which are swing seats). This is undoubtedly a clever electoral strategy, but not entirely in the best interests of the country as a whole.


MrTangerineMan
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Apr 15, 2017, 11:21 PM

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Post #392 of 446 (2012 views)
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I counter that by asking why do you think you will be guaranteed a place?

Even that Barroso chap said that there would be no guarantee that you would be allowed in.

I confirm nothing by my William Wallace comment, it was a joke comment - funnily enough it was deemed serious enough by you that you felt the need to comment on it.

Scotland may well want to join/rejoin the EU, but would you be willing to adopt the Euro? I notice that Wee Jimmy Krankie (sorry, Nicola Sturgeon) has not mentioned that yet.

Scotland would also be 'at the back of the queue' to join the EU, according to Esteban Gonzales Ponz MEP:

“If once the UK leaves, and Scotland decides to leave the UK, then you (Scotland) can join the queue after Montenegro, Serbia, Bosnia Herzegovina, Turkey to join the EU.

“The rules are the rules - we can’t change the rules.”

Jean-Claude Juncker also said:

"One does not become a member of the EU by sending a letter."

So if Barroso and Juncker are not in a hurry to take Scotland in (oh, and you'd have to pay in more than you take out, Germany cannot bankroll the EU vanity project alone) then as triggering and upsetting as this may be but there is no guarantee that the EU would take Scotland regardless of how economically strong you are.


MrTangerineMan
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Apr 15, 2017, 11:28 PM

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Post #393 of 446 (2004 views)
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The ironic thing is that Cornwall and South Wales, overall, voted to leave.


PaulC
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Apr 16, 2017, 12:19 AM

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Post #394 of 446 (1994 views)
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Oh dear. Do you think countries are admitted to the EU in the order they apply?

There is no queue. Nations are admitted when they meet the entry requirements.

There is a massive amount of goodwill being shown to Scotland by EU members and a speedy admission of Scotland would be great way for the EU to give the UK a bloody nose.

For years the London press has lied about Spain's objection to Scotland joining the EU. Spain has buried the lie once and for all.

http://www.politico.eu/...034c6e6a40-189783945

This was the letter written recently by 50 MEPs across 20 EU nations:



Fanatic
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Apr 16, 2017, 12:36 AM

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Post #395 of 446 (1988 views)
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The ironic thing is that Cornwall and South Wales, overall, voted to leave.


Yes, quite. It's arguably the biggest electoral act of self-harm ever seen.

With regards to Scotland 'rejoining' the EU, they wouldn't really be at the back of the queue. The process of joining involves passing numerous pieces of legislation to bring domestic laws in line with EU laws, and this usually takes years, if not decades. In Scotland's case all the laws are already in place, so accession could happen very quickly.

I can't see the EU not wanting to take a new member like Scotland as quickly as possible.


MrTangerineMan
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Apr 16, 2017, 3:15 AM

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Post #396 of 446 (1968 views)
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No surprise from the content of the link (very alt-left).

However, if you believe you can do it then great. Prove us doubting Thomas's wrong and give us a bloody nose.


007Dale
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Apr 16, 2017, 7:12 AM

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Post #397 of 446 (1938 views)
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In Reply To
The ironic thing is that Cornwall and South Wales, overall, voted to leave.


Yes, quite. It's arguably the biggest electoral act of self-harm ever seen.

With regards to Scotland 'rejoining' the EU, they wouldn't really be at the back of the queue. The process of joining involves passing numerous pieces of legislation to bring domestic laws in line with EU laws, and this usually takes years, if not decades. In Scotland's case all the laws are already in place, so accession could happen very quickly.

I can't see the EU not wanting to take a new member like Scotland as quickly as possible.


The question for Scotland (if they become independent) is whether they really would want to join the EU.

If the UK doesn't get a tariff free trade agreement with the EU, then by joining the EU, Scotland has just put tariffs on its biggest trading partner (the U.K.)

It would have to be pretty damn sure it was going to increase its trade with the EU to cover the loss - but how? It's already a member of the EU at the moment, so it may only recover what is lost by leaving the EU, not replace the trade with the rest of the UK.

Then the currency, what would they do? Westminster has already said it would not let Scotland use the pound.

These are the sort of questions the Scottish people need to have answers to before they make a decision.


jon b
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Apr 16, 2017, 8:13 AM

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Post #398 of 446 (1924 views)
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Then the currency, what would they do? Westminster has already said it would not let Scotland use the pound..


How would we stop them?

Isn't it their currency just as much as ours?


PaulC
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Apr 16, 2017, 8:15 AM

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Post #399 of 446 (1922 views)
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Then the currency, what would they do? Westminster has already said it would not let Scotland use the pound.
.


LOL! It has said no such thing.

Tell me how, exactly, can Scotland be prevented from continuing to use sterling?

I'm all ears.


PaulC
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Apr 16, 2017, 8:27 AM

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No surprise from the content of the link (very alt-left).

.


Dearie me. Do you mean the London Daily Mail, Express, Sun and BBC didn't report it?

I'm beginning to understand why you people are so badly informed about Scotland.

But hey, here's the Scottish edition of ths Sun

https://www.thescottishsun.co.uk/...ref2-alfonso-dastis/

Perhaps, one day, you'll realise the London media treat you like mushrooms.

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