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Brexit negotiations

 



Barbie
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Jun 30, 2016, 8:43 AM

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     Brexit negotiations   or Reply Privately

OK, we've voted out.
I admit I was, and remain, a Remainer.
But now we've voted out, what are the red lines?
I'm told by the media that the UK wants full access to the single market but no free movement. This is clearly unacceptable to the EU.
However - given the close nature of the vote, surely not all Leavers were anti immigration, and there will have been other factors, such as Fisheries policy, that played their part.
So, what's the best outcome for the consensus?
Membership of the EEA, free movement, control of Fisheries policy and marginally reduced rights to out of work benefits for EU citizens.
Would that swing the balance?


acmold
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Jun 30, 2016, 9:39 AM

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Post #2 of 446 (14817 views)
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     Re: [Barbie] Brexit negotiations [In reply to]   or


In Reply To
OK, we've voted out.
I admit I was, and remain, a Remainer.
But now we've voted out, what are the red lines?
I'm told by the media that the UK wants full access to the single market but no free movement. This is clearly unacceptable to the EU.
However - given the close nature of the vote, surely not all Leavers were anti immigration, and there will have been other factors, such as Fisheries policy, that played their part.
So, what's the best outcome for the consensus?
Membership of the EEA, free movement, control of Fisheries policy and marginally reduced rights to out of work benefits for EU citizens.
Would that swing the balance?


Funny we are talking Red Lines when one of the problems with the EU is Red Tape which makes both Red and Blues see Red.

A watered down EU or something of that ilk would probably be preferred by not only the UK but other members.

On the immigration front I really can't see any problem with anyone coming here who is going to work if they have a job waiting for them, lets be honest about this how many of our own unemployed would actually take many (not all but many) of the jobs the EU workers do?. If they were willing to do so they would have taken them in the first place.


Tykeoldboy
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Jun 30, 2016, 2:38 PM

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Post #3 of 446 (14735 views)
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     Re: [acmold] Brexit negotiations [In reply to]   or Reply Privately

Free movement of people and goods is a must.

Stopping benefits for non-EU citizens in the UK with maybe a proviso once they have lived & worked in the UK for a minimum period of time then they can claim unemployment benefits should they need it and they remain in the UK, but only for 6 months.

Since the UK isn't part of Schengen then border controls don't come into the discussion, although the UK government do need to tighten up on this, especially for non EU citizens. EU citizens could be given a UK work permit, similar to the Swiss work permits that you had to have when I worked in Switzerland.

Keeping border personnel in Calais is a must otherwise the French authorities will just open the gates to rid themselves of the immigrants living near Calais.

The UK also need to remove itself from the EU Human Rights legislation and deal with this issue themselves.



The feeling of utter devastation when you pick up your mug and realise you already finished your tea.


Barbie
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Jun 30, 2016, 8:15 PM

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Post #4 of 446 (14630 views)
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     Re: [Tykeoldboy] Brexit negotiations [In reply to]   or Reply Privately


In Reply To
.

The UK also need to remove itself from the EU Human Rights legislation and deal with this issue themselves.


Human Rights is dealt with under the a convention that is nothing to do with the EU and by a court that is not an EU court.
Britain was, of course, the driving force behind the Convention after WWII


jon b
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Jun 30, 2016, 8:18 PM

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Post #5 of 446 (14621 views)
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     Re: [Tykeoldboy] Brexit negotiations [In reply to]   or Reply Privately


In Reply To
Keeping border personnel in Calais is a must otherwise the French authorities will just open the gates to rid themselves of the immigrants living near Calais.


Isn't that entirely up to the French?


hawkwind
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Jun 30, 2016, 9:18 PM

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Post #6 of 446 (14570 views)
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In Reply To

In Reply To
Keeping border personnel in Calais is a must otherwise the French authorities will just open the gates to rid themselves of the immigrants living near Calais.


Isn't that entirely up to the French?


No it isn't.

The agreement is bilateral and part of a number of accords made between the UK and France to aid travellers.

Examples. The border for immigration checks is Calais for traffic travelling from France to UK, and Cheriton (Eurotunnel) Dover (Ferry) for traffic travelling from UK to France. Eurostar has the same arrangement with UK immigration checks conducted at Gare du Nord (Paris), Lille Europe, Calais Frethun and Bruxelles Midi (Brussels) and Schengen immigration checks conducted at St Pancras, Ebbsfleet and Ashford.

It works well for all travellers so I for one would like to keep it.

The current losers of the arrangement are evidently the good citizens of Calais which explains why there are noises from the concerned regional authority. The agreements though are bilateral not dependent on EU membership.

(This post was edited by hawkwind on Jun 30, 2016, 9:20 PM)


BigJR
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Jul 1, 2016, 2:04 PM

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Post #7 of 446 (14359 views)
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     Re: [hawkwind] Brexit negotiations [In reply to]   or Reply Privately

If we agree to complete freedom of movement so we can continue with free trade, then the whole Referendum was a farce and would NOT go down well with the majority of those who voted. Must be the nearest this would be to the next civil war after Oliver Cromwell and Charles I.

Anyway, now that Boris has ruled himself out of the running for leadership, it will all depend who gets it.

May, a 'Remain' campaigner, or Gove, a staunch 'Brexit' man. Odds on it'll be one of them. I'm started to smell dirty politics involved.

Nothing new there then, with the Tory party.


(This post was edited by BigJR on Jul 1, 2016, 5:15 PM)


Tykeoldboy
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Jul 1, 2016, 4:26 PM

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Post #8 of 446 (14306 views)
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     Re: [BigJR] Brexit negotiations [In reply to]   or Reply Privately

I read an article yesterday about how the UK will exit the EU. it could mean new legislation has to be passed in parliament to allow Article 50 to be invoked. This new legislation could then be rejected by the House of Lords. The only thing we know now for sure is the David Cameron has divided the country and isn't hanging around to sort out his mess.

On the subject of mess, the invisible man, George Osborne said that his plan for a budget surplus by 2020 has been abandoned. S**t just doesn't stick to this man. All his targets have failed or watered down.



The feeling of utter devastation when you pick up your mug and realise you already finished your tea.


Richard Rundle
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Jul 1, 2016, 5:35 PM

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Post #9 of 446 (14273 views)
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     Re: [BigJR] Brexit negotiations [In reply to]   or Reply Privately


In Reply To
If we agree to complete freedom of movement so we can continue with free trade, then the whole Referendum was a farce and would NOT go down well with the majority of those who voted.


But surely it can't have come as much of a surprise? That was "out there" well before the referendum, and it seemed to be the reason Gove (and as far as I can see only Gove of the big players) said we needed to be out of the single market as well as the EU.


Ronsdog
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Jul 1, 2016, 10:10 PM

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Post #10 of 446 (14100 views)
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     Re: [BigJR] Brexit negotiations [In reply to]   or Reply Privately


In Reply To
If we agree to complete freedom of movement so we can continue with free trade, then the whole Referendum was a farce and would NOT go down well with the majority of those who voted.


Associate membership with free movement of LABOUR. SimplesWink

Might not suit the unions but that's the way forward.


Barbie
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Jul 4, 2016, 12:22 PM

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Post #11 of 446 (13582 views)
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     Re: [Ronsdog] Brexit negotiations [In reply to]   or Reply Privately


In Reply To

In Reply To
If we agree to complete freedom of movement so we can continue with free trade, then the whole Referendum was a farce and would NOT go down well with the majority of those who voted.


Associate membership with free movement of LABOUR. SimplesWink

Might not suit the unions but that's the way forward.

Associate membership isn't likely. All 27 other nations would have to agree and the risk to the Union is too great.

As to Free movement not going down well with the majority who voted. If we assume that the 48% Remainers were content with Freedom of movement, we then only need to look at the motivation of those who voted Leave. Some objected to the CAP, some to Common Fisheries, some only wished to give Cameron a bloody nose.
It therefore cannot follow, AS A CERTAINTY, that a majority wished to end free movement


Ronsdog
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Jul 4, 2016, 1:17 PM

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Post #12 of 446 (13541 views)
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     Re: [Barbie] Brexit negotiations [In reply to]   or Reply Privately

 

The Germans and French seem split over the way forward....

http://www.msn.com/...p;ocid=mailsignoutmd

I'm convinced that a fudge will be arrived at.


Barbie
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Jul 4, 2016, 1:25 PM

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Post #13 of 446 (13531 views)
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     Re: [Ronsdog] Brexit negotiations [In reply to]   or Reply Privately


In Reply To

The Germans and French seem split over the way forward....

http://www.msn.com/...p;ocid=mailsignoutmd

I'm convinced that a fudge will be arrived at.

The Telegraph quotes an unnamed German minister and implies that the President of the Commission is an alcoholic.
Must be true then.....


BigJR
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Jul 5, 2016, 2:40 PM

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Post #14 of 446 (13375 views)
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     Re: [Ronsdog] Brexit negotiations [In reply to]   or Reply Privately


In Reply To

The Germans and French seem split over the way forward....


http://www.msn.com/...p;ocid=mailsignoutmd

I'm convinced that a fudge will be arrived at.


Nothing new there, then !!



jon b
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Jul 10, 2016, 6:18 PM

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Post #15 of 446 (13121 views)
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     Re: [BigJR] Brexit negotiations [In reply to]   or Reply Privately

My fervent hope is that whoever wins the Tory leadership contest appoints a team of Ministers to lead the negotiations. A team comprising Bojo, Gove, Leadsom (if not PM), Grayling, Farage (Ho, Ho) etc.

Then see what's the best deal they can come up with. Tongue Their chance to put their money where their mouths are.


BigJR
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Jul 10, 2016, 6:34 PM

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Post #16 of 446 (13099 views)
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In Reply To
My fervent hope is that whoever wins the Tory leadership contest appoints a team of Ministers to lead the negotiations. A team comprising Bojo, Gove, Leadsom (if not PM), Grayling, Farage (Ho, Ho) etc.

Then see what's the best deal they can come up with. Tongue Their chance to put their money where their mouths are.


I'm pretty sure it'll be May now that Gove lost out.

May was originally a 'Remain' supporter.


hawkwind
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Jul 11, 2016, 11:30 PM

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Post #17 of 446 (12942 views)
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     Re: [Barbie] Brexit negotiations [In reply to]   or Reply Privately


In Reply To

In Reply To

In Reply To
If we agree to complete freedom of movement so we can continue with free trade, then the whole Referendum was a farce and would NOT go down well with the majority of those who voted.


Associate membership with free movement of LABOUR. SimplesWink

Might not suit the unions but that's the way forward.

Associate membership isn't likely. All 27 other nations would have to agree and the risk to the Union is too great.

As to Free movement not going down well with the majority who voted. If we assume that the 48% Remainers were content with Freedom of movement, we then only need to look at the motivation of those who voted Leave. Some objected to the CAP, some to Common Fisheries, some only wished to give Cameron a bloody nose.
It therefore cannot follow, AS A CERTAINTY, that a majority wished to end free movement


And some only voted leave because of the extra £350M a week for the NHS.

Why should British citizens be screwed in negotiations?

To satisfy me free movement of people has to continue.

I do believe there is however scope to reduce immigration by changing the benefits system.which should be mutually acceptable to both GB and the EU.

For example:
For EU people in UK AND for UK people in other EU countries:
No new access to child benefits;
Limit total unemployment benefits to say 25% of previously paid contributions (tax and social security) in the host country.

Good idea? Bad idea?


Part-Timer
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Jul 12, 2016, 10:10 AM

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Post #18 of 446 (12867 views)
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     Re: [hawkwind] Brexit negotiations [In reply to]   or Reply Privately

I am not at all clear about what there is to negotiate with the EU. We have announced that we are going to leave. What are we going to do if we don't like the EU's response? Stay? What cards do we actually hold in these 'negotiations'? Jean-Claude Juncker's remark to Nigel Farage ('Why are you still here') rather sums up what my attitude to the UK would be if I was running the EU.


Barbie
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Jul 12, 2016, 11:20 AM

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Post #19 of 446 (12830 views)
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     Re: [Part-Timer] Brexit negotiations [In reply to]   or Reply Privately

We need to negotiate trade relationships, travel relationships for workers, business travellers and holidaymakers, security cooperation, border controls - not least the land borders between N.Ireland and the Republic of Ireland and Gibraltar and Spain, education relationships, science cooperation, airline administration issues, food standards cooperation, fisheries access (this is not as simple as may be thought - the UK currently has 30% of the EU fishing quota but only 13% of the territorial waters), environmental cooperation, healthcare cooperation (eg the Ehic card), residency relationships (do we take back all our pensioners in return for all their care workers - an over simplification, I grant you)
And I'm only just scratching the surface.


Part-Timer
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Jul 12, 2016, 12:03 PM

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Post #20 of 446 (12783 views)
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     Re: [Barbie] Brexit negotiations [In reply to]   or Reply Privately

I appreciate that all that needs to be done. However my confusion arises from the fact that we have already said we are going. If we don't invoke Article 50 the others presumably won't waste their time negotiating with us (much like they did with David Cameron's attempts to reform the organisation before the referendum). But what if we get to the end of the two years and we don't like the results of the negotiations? Do we not leave after all? Perhaps we could have another referendum at that point. At least we would all know what we are voting about.


BigJR
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Jul 12, 2016, 12:06 PM

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Post #21 of 446 (12778 views)
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With for the new PM to declare her Cabinet.

With a new Foreign Secretary and a possible specific Minister to oversee exit conditions will tell us a lot.


Barbie
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Jul 12, 2016, 12:39 PM

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Post #22 of 446 (12768 views)
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If we don't come to an agreement at the end of 2 years, trade goes onto WTO tariff rules - which are pretty punitive, though there is the possibility that, if an agreement is close, interim arrangements could be made. Whilst it is undoubtedly in the interest of EU manufacturers for free trade to continue, this scenario is more damaging for the UK in terms of inward investment (and non EU companies who have European HQs in the UK at present)
All the others run on a continuum from 'no change' to 'no deal' - so, for example, we might come to an agreement to continue full access to intelligence on terror suspects, or we might end up in a situation where we or they are thinking that it's better to hang on to our own information and bargain with it, rather than using it for the common good (i.e. if you want info, I want something in return).
It may be that agreement is reached in some areas and not in others.
The problem is, that the longer it drags on, the more the uncertainty, the more damage to the economy.
Another referendum on the final deal would be potentially suicidal- if it's voted down, we'd have no deal on anything and the International status of North Korea.


jon b
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Jul 12, 2016, 1:11 PM

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Post #23 of 446 (12736 views)
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I prefer to be positive and hope that on both sides the grown ups will be in charge of the negotiations.
It aint going to be easy but I'd have thought Merkel and May will be pushing from either side to come up with something that works.
A lot depends on the Vicar's daughter here and the Pastor's daughter in Germany.


PaulC
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Jul 15, 2016, 10:46 PM

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Post #24 of 446 (12504 views)
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No Brexit until Scotland agrees.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/...that-she-believes-w/


Barbie
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Jul 15, 2016, 11:20 PM

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Post #25 of 446 (12474 views)
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No Turkish accession any time soon given tonight's events.


Chris1963
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Jul 17, 2016, 1:03 AM

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Post #26 of 446 (5573 views)
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In Reply To
No Turkish accession any time soon given tonight's events.


They weren't going to join soon anyway, not least because Germany would have objected. Erdogan is a complete idiot for refusing to talk to the PKK, particularly as they are asking for nothing more than autonomy within Turkey and not complete independence. I would not have had much sympathy with him had he been toppled in the coup attempt.


HantsLondoner
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Jul 17, 2016, 7:44 AM

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Post #27 of 446 (5446 views)
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Agree that there is/was no chance of Turkey joining the EU.

Saying that there was, was one of the lies that Boris Johnson was pushing during the Referendum debate. It will come back to bite him on the bum in his new job.



If you're going to/been to a Hampshire Premier League match, I'd really appreciate you filling in a questionnaire - available in the Groundhopping/General section, or just PM me for a copy. Thanks.

(This post was edited by HantsLondoner on Jul 17, 2016, 7:46 AM)


Chris1963
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Jul 17, 2016, 9:27 AM

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Post #28 of 446 (5409 views)
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And Boris will face possible arrest should he ever travel to Turkey, given what he said about Erdogan not too long ago.


HantsLondoner
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Jul 17, 2016, 9:46 AM

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Post #29 of 446 (5387 views)
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Indeed. Is it a good idea to have a Foreign Secretary in that position?

Given the strategic importance of Turkey in the world, the potential danger of Erdogan's increasing power in his country, etc.?



If you're going to/been to a Hampshire Premier League match, I'd really appreciate you filling in a questionnaire - available in the Groundhopping/General section, or just PM me for a copy. Thanks.


kirby knitters
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Jul 17, 2016, 9:46 AM

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Post #30 of 446 (5386 views)
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That would hardly be a good move on their part seeing as they have aspirations to join the EU!


HantsLondoner
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Jul 17, 2016, 9:52 AM

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They have no chance of the EU. Their best chance was about five years ago, it didn't happen then and since then Turkey are looking to other places as well as the EU.

As I said, they are strategically a very important country and given some of their neighbours/near neighbours you can hardly blame them for looking for allies no matter where.

With what now is perceived as internal instability/the threat of more power in the hands of one person or party I think everyone needs to watch events in Turkey very carefully.



If you're going to/been to a Hampshire Premier League match, I'd really appreciate you filling in a questionnaire - available in the Groundhopping/General section, or just PM me for a copy. Thanks.


BigJR
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Jul 17, 2016, 3:35 PM

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Post #32 of 446 (5258 views)
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I wonder what Erdogan will do with the plotting Generals now that the coup has failed ?



dottirofhod
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Jul 17, 2016, 3:49 PM

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Post #33 of 446 (5246 views)
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He wants reintroduction of the death penalty.


Sure some of the 6,000 already arrested will not be seen again.



July 1, 2019 to June 30,2020 = 69 / 59 / 10 / inc 2 x 0-0's. (You know my rules) @ 19 / 09 / 2019.
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windydcfc
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Jul 17, 2016, 3:58 PM

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He doesn't want to push the Army to much. Because there's been 6 coups in Turkey's history & the Army are pro-Secular Atarturkists!


Rob North
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Jul 17, 2016, 8:37 PM

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Post #35 of 446 (5102 views)
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In Reply To
And Boris will face possible arrest should he ever travel to Turkey, given what he said about Erdogan not too long ago.


We can but hope...


kirby knitters
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Jul 17, 2016, 10:20 PM

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Post #36 of 446 (5070 views)
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In Reply To
He wants reintroduction of the death penalty.


Sure some of the 6,000 already arrested will not be seen again.

Sounds an absolute top guy to me. Just goes to show how easier things can become when outside the EU!!


Richard Rundle
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Jul 18, 2016, 12:09 AM

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Post #37 of 446 (5013 views)
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In Reply To
He doesn't want to push the Army to much. Because there's been 6 coups in Turkey's history & the Army are pro-Secular Atarturkists!



It was kind of funny that the West had to, in the cause of democracy, support the Islamist regime over the secularists.


Ronsdog
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Jul 18, 2016, 2:23 AM

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Post #38 of 446 (4944 views)
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It is ironic that the EU is 'funding' Turkey to the tune of some €300m as part of he migrant deal. Seems to me that the Turkish President is playing the west and becoming more dictatorial at home.

A recipe for a political disaster just around the corner....


Ronsdog
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Post #39 of 446 (4518 views)
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In Reply To
OK, we've voted out.
I admit I was, and remain, a Remainer.
But now we've voted out, what are the red lines?
I'm told by the media that the UK wants full access to the single market but no free movement. This is clearly unacceptable to the EU.
However - given the close nature of the vote, surely not all Leavers were anti immigration, and there will have been other factors, such as Fisheries policy, that played their part.
So, what's the best outcome for the consensus?
Membership of the EEA, free movement, control of Fisheries policy and marginally reduced rights to out of work benefits for EU citizens.
Would that swing the balance?


Is this the beginning of the much vaunted fudge that has been widely predicted........

http://www.msn.com/...p;ocid=mailsignoutmd


Barbie
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Jul 24, 2016, 1:18 PM

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OK, we've voted out.
I admit I was, and remain, a Remainer.
But now we've voted out, what are the red lines?
I'm told by the media that the UK wants full access to the single market but no free movement. This is clearly unacceptable to the EU.
However - given the close nature of the vote, surely not all Leavers were anti immigration, and there will have been other factors, such as Fisheries policy, that played their part.
So, what's the best outcome for the consensus?
Membership of the EEA, free movement, control of Fisheries policy and marginally reduced rights to out of work benefits for EU citizens.
Would that swing the balance?


Is this the beginning of the much vaunted fudge that has been widely predicted........

http://www.msn.com/...p;ocid=mailsignoutmd

Why is that a 'fudge'?


Tykeoldboy
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Jul 24, 2016, 2:58 PM

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Post #41 of 446 (4458 views)
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In Reply To

In Reply To
OK, we've voted out.
I admit I was, and remain, a Remainer.
But now we've voted out, what are the red lines?
I'm told by the media that the UK wants full access to the single market but no free movement. This is clearly unacceptable to the EU.
However - given the close nature of the vote, surely not all Leavers were anti immigration, and there will have been other factors, such as Fisheries policy, that played their part.
So, what's the best outcome for the consensus?
Membership of the EEA, free movement, control of Fisheries policy and marginally reduced rights to out of work benefits for EU citizens.
Would that swing the balance?


Is this the beginning of the much vaunted fudge that has been widely predicted........

http://www.msn.com/...p;ocid=mailsignoutmd

Why is that a 'fudge'?


Part of the "fudge" or should that be that "Euro-fudge" will be payments by the UK to the EU to give us access to the EU market. It seems to be that by leaving the EU the UK will gain little but lose a lot. I also read a news report that UK exit could take as long as 5 years.



The feeling of utter devastation when you pick up your mug and realise you already finished your tea.


PaulC
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Jul 24, 2016, 3:41 PM

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Part of the "fudge" or should that be that "Euro-fudge" will be payments by the UK to the EU to give us access to the EU market. It seems to be that by leaving the EU the UK will gain little but lose a lot. I also read a news report that UK exit could take as long as 5 years.


I can't imagine Article 50 being triggered by this Government. "5 years" - no chance.


Barbie
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Jul 24, 2016, 4:20 PM

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Post #43 of 446 (4429 views)
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In Reply To

In Reply To

In Reply To

In Reply To
OK, we've voted out.
I admit I was, and remain, a Remainer.
But now we've voted out, what are the red lines?
I'm told by the media that the UK wants full access to the single market but no free movement. This is clearly unacceptable to the EU.
However - given the close nature of the vote, surely not all Leavers were anti immigration, and there will have been other factors, such as Fisheries policy, that played their part.
So, what's the best outcome for the consensus?
Membership of the EEA, free movement, control of Fisheries policy and marginally reduced rights to out of work benefits for EU citizens.
Would that swing the balance?


Is this the beginning of the much vaunted fudge that has been widely predicted........

http://www.msn.com/...p;ocid=mailsignoutmd

Why is that a 'fudge'?


Part of the "fudge" or should that be that "Euro-fudge" will be payments by the UK to the EU to give us access to the EU market. It seems to be that by leaving the EU the UK will gain little but lose a lot. I also read a news report that UK exit could take as long as 5 years.

Paying into the EU budget for access to the free market was always going to happen. Every other developed economy in Europe outside the EU does this. 'Gain a little but lose a lot' was exactly what Remainers were saying before the referendum.


BigJR
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Jul 24, 2016, 5:27 PM

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Post #44 of 446 (4402 views)
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I don't believe there will be a fudge at all.

May has already had immediate meetings with France and Germany. I think she is an honest career politician, who accepts British democracy and will do all she can to negotiate a settlement that pleases all voters.

Cameron was never a career politician. He was just a star-struck individual who enjoyed being centre stage. He banked on a 'Remain' vote and came seriously unstuck at the result, sso he picked up his 'football' and went off home sulking and counting all his money.

FACT. Britain is a democracy.

FACT. Britain voted DEMOCRATICALLY to leave the EU.

Just get on and do it without 'faffing' around. The rest of the world in general will respect us a lot more if we do.

Oh, and finally......

FACT. There is still room to negotiate with Europe. Negotiations that please us and Europe will have to accept, instead of their total domination of us.


Barbie
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Jul 24, 2016, 8:35 PM

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FACT. There is still room to negotiate with Europe. Negotiations that please us and Europe will have to accept, instead of their total domination of us.


I think you've missed the concept of negotiation.


Barbie
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Jul 24, 2016, 8:39 PM

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Post #46 of 446 (4366 views)
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http://www.thedailymash.co.uk/...tions-20160715110899


spudungeyee
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Jul 26, 2016, 6:49 PM

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Post #47 of 446 (4260 views)
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No Turkish accession any time soon given tonight's events.


The turks were at least 25 years short anyway, they had only passed 1 condition of many to gain entrance. The only country pushing for membership was the UK and Boris was one of them.



https://www.sbat.com/tips/free-football-betting-tips


hawkwind
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Jul 29, 2016, 9:23 PM

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Post #48 of 446 (4049 views)
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No Turkish accession any time soon given tonight's events.


The turks were at least 25 years short anyway, they had only passed 1 condition of many to gain entrance. The only country pushing for membership was the UK and Boris was one of them.


Couple of videos/articles on Boris Johnson and Turkey

http://stopturkey.blogspot.co.uk/2010/08/boris-turk.html

http://www.downvids.net/...-the-eu--808161.html


Ronsdog
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Aug 26, 2016, 12:01 AM

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Is this more 'evidence' of the continued implosion of the EU........

http://www.msn.com/...amp;ocid=mailsignout

This trend will make any UK negotiations that much easier.


PaulC
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Dec 3, 2016, 9:19 AM

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garethwrexy
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Dec 4, 2016, 2:59 PM

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Post #51 of 446 (3194 views)
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The sooner we leave the eu the better



wrexham fc fa trophy winners 2013 !


jon b
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Dec 4, 2016, 3:55 PM

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Now that's the sort of Brains Trust that would get us a wonderful deal with the EU Shocked

For some reason it reminds me of our two year old granddaughter who we took on the Peak Rail Santa Steam Special yesterday. We have to explain things very slowly and gently to her. Tongue


acmold
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Dec 4, 2016, 4:02 PM

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Post #53 of 446 (3168 views)
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The sooner we leave the eu the better


Why?.


Ronsdog
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Dec 4, 2016, 7:47 PM

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Post #54 of 446 (3111 views)
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In Reply To
The sooner we leave the eu the better


Why?.


So we all know what fudge has been arrived at.

Associate Membership most probably.


acmold
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Dec 5, 2016, 9:41 AM

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I was more interested to hear Gareth's reasons were now (we know Brexit whatever it is will not be what anyone thought) one of his original reasons was Welsh jobs should be for locals only, but it was pointed out by another poster that he is not Welsh so his reason would actually make him unemployed.


Isaac
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Dec 5, 2016, 9:52 AM

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Post #56 of 446 (3023 views)
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The sooner we leave the eu the better


Indeed!


garethwrexy
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Dec 5, 2016, 11:14 AM

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Post #57 of 446 (3010 views)
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This country will do well out of the eu will still get trade deals



wrexham fc fa trophy winners 2013 !


PaulC
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Dec 5, 2016, 11:52 AM

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Post #58 of 446 (2997 views)
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This country will do well out of the eu will still get trade deals


Yippee! Perhaps you could help HMG with the negotiations.


jrev61
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Dec 5, 2016, 1:25 PM

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Post #59 of 446 (2978 views)
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This country will do well out of the eu will still get trade deals


Yippee! Perhaps you could help HMG with the negotiations.


He'd be about as much use as Farage!



jrev61


Part-Timer
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Dec 5, 2016, 2:19 PM

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Post #60 of 446 (2965 views)
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Now that's the sort of Brains Trust that would get us a wonderful deal with the EU Shocked

For some reason it reminds me of our two year old granddaughter who we took on the Peak Rail Santa Steam Special yesterday. We have to explain things very slowly and gently to her. Tongue

All our economic woes would be over if we could negotiate a good price with the EU for our mountain of unnecessary apostrophes.


PaulC
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Dec 5, 2016, 5:12 PM

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In Reply To


Now that's the sort of Brains Trust that would get us a wonderful deal with the EU Shocked


Keep the Grocer's apostrophe British.


garethwrexy
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Dec 5, 2016, 8:30 PM

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Post #62 of 446 (2893 views)
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Leaving the eu could be the best thing to ever happen to the uk



wrexham fc fa trophy winners 2013 !


paulh66
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Dec 5, 2016, 8:41 PM

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Post #63 of 446 (2888 views)
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Leaving the eu could be the best thing to ever happen to the uk


No. The best thing ever to happen to the UK was winning the double outright in 1981 - Jeux Sans Frontieres and the Eurovision Song Contest.


Chris1963
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Dec 5, 2016, 8:49 PM

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Leaving the eu could be the best thing to ever happen to the uk


No. The best thing ever to happen to the UK was winning the double outright in 1981 - Jeux Sans Frontieres and the Eurovision Song Contest.


Ah, yes, "It's a Knockout" as Jeux sans Frontieres was known in the UK (I have no idea why they did not use a more literal translation) although what sticks in my mind is the domestic ones with towns like Redcar and Charnock Richard taking part - these are places which have decent senior football teams today but didn't in the 1970''s and 1980's.


paulh66
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Indeed. And who can forget Ely being crowned Champions of Europe in 1973?


buncranaboy
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Dec 5, 2016, 9:03 PM

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Leaving the eu could be the best thing to ever happen to the uk

Yep; done the pound a ton of good against other currencies - one fifth of it's value gone so far. So that's obviously not the reason you think it's the best thing - what do you think will be the benefits?


007Dale
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Dec 5, 2016, 9:09 PM

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Post #67 of 446 (2868 views)
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Leaving the eu could be the best thing to ever happen to the uk

Yep; done the pound a ton of good against other currencies - one fifth of it's value gone so far. So that's obviously not the reason you think it's the best thing - what do you think will be the benefits?

That in itself is not a disaster - better for our exporters. Yes, imports go up, but a bit of inflation won't be horrendous, may lead to the much needed interest rate rise.


Chris1963
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Dec 5, 2016, 9:28 PM

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One thing many people don't seem to have realised is that if the UK leaves the EU and then does so badly economically that if it is forced to reapply for membership some years later, it will have to sign up for the single currency, as all future applicants now have to do. So those who voted to leave could well find themselves having to pay for everything in euros about 20 years from now. Perhaps not a particularly likely scenario, but I'll be laughing my socks off if this does happen!


garethwrexy
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Dec 5, 2016, 9:41 PM

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It's project fear again the uk economy isn't going to fall apart if we leave the uk may get stronge as a country



wrexham fc fa trophy winners 2013 !


kirby knitters
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Dec 5, 2016, 9:56 PM

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It's project fear again the uk economy isn't going to fall apart if we leave the uk may get stronge as a country

I have no fears whatsoever for the future WHEN we depart the EU.

As for us being stronger as a country ? Why not though we could end up splitting up with one former member on the €'s and i'd laugh my socks off.


Fanatic
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Dec 5, 2016, 10:20 PM

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In Reply To

In Reply To
Leaving the eu could be the best thing to ever happen to the uk

Yep; done the pound a ton of good against other currencies - one fifth of it's value gone so far. So that's obviously not the reason you think it's the best thing - what do you think will be the benefits?

That in itself is not a disaster - better for our exporters. Yes, imports go up, but a bit of inflation won't be horrendous, may lead to the much needed interest rate rise.


It's very problematic for us as a country because we export very little, as a result, have the worst trade deficit amongst western economies. At least in the short term, our economy will be the more damaged than almost any other by having a weak currency.

This may stimulate domestic manufacturing in the long-run, but this is also dependent on government investment, which is not terribly likely under the current lot.


(This post was edited by Fanatic on Dec 5, 2016, 10:25 PM)


Fanatic
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Dec 5, 2016, 10:24 PM

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It's project fear again the uk economy isn't going to fall apart if we leave the uk may get stronge as a country


How do you know? It was scaremongering to say that the economy would collapse, but it was equally dishonest by the other side to say it would strengthen the economy.

Maybe you could also answer the question about why you think things will be better outside the EU?


Richard Rundle
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Dec 6, 2016, 7:32 AM

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Post #73 of 446 (2755 views)
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That in itself is not a disaster - better for our exporters. Yes, imports go up, but a bit of inflation won't be horrendous, may lead to the much needed interest rate rise.


An interest rate rise isn't much needed in my eyes, the period of low interest rate stability has allowed business to avoid boom and bust economics since the 2008 crash.

The vote to leave the EU will, in my opinion, be the biggest mistake the UK makes in my lifetime, but the people have voted and we have to go through with it. Let's hope the Government make the decisions on the exit in the best interest of the economy, not the politicians.

We're already seeing indications that investment in UK infrastructure, post leaving he EU, will be more London-centric than before, yet the rural regions were more pro-leave and London was pro-remain.


acmold
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Dec 6, 2016, 9:40 AM

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Post #74 of 446 (2735 views)
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My biggest fear with Brexit is the rich will get richer and the poor will get poorer. The EU funding which was going to the poorer areas will be redirected elsewhere. Employment rights will be eroded and people will be forced into low paid jobs and benefits will be cut. Bottom line the unemployed take the jobs the EU workers currently do as no one wanted them in the first place, if you don't take them no benefits. Back breaking work harvesting fruit and veg or no money. The only growth in England will be from London via an area from the M4 to the A1 stopping at Leeds & Manchester.


BigJR
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Dec 6, 2016, 6:01 PM

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And so the Brexit saga goes on and on and on and on and on.

Now we have the High Court saga over Parliaments responsibility. WHY ? A majority voted OUT and OUT means OUT. That's democracy !

We are heading for this countrys second English civil !


PaulC
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Dec 6, 2016, 6:28 PM

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And so the Brexit saga goes on and on and on and on and on.

Now we have the High Court saga over Parliaments responsibility. WHY ? A majority voted OUT and OUT means OUT. That's democracy !

We are heading for this countrys second English civil !


The vote was advisory. Why should 37% dictate to the 63% who didn't vote Leave?

We are a parliamentary democracy - not a populist one.


acmold
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Dec 6, 2016, 6:30 PM

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Post #77 of 446 (2760 views)
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It's only about procedure on how the process is carried out. The leave campaign had no plan and did not know the legal procedures.


Fanatic
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Dec 6, 2016, 7:16 PM

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And so the Brexit saga goes on and on and on and on and on.

Now we have the High Court saga over Parliaments responsibility. WHY ? A majority voted OUT and OUT means OUT. That's democracy !

We are heading for this countrys second English civil !


The courts are there to make sure things are done legally.

If it wasn't for courts, Lutfur Rahman would not have been removed from office as mayor of Tower Hamlets.

One of the reasons the court overturned the result was that false statements were made during the election campaign. Imagine if we could apply that to the referendum result!


Isaac
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Dec 6, 2016, 10:15 PM

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In Reply To
And so the Brexit saga goes on and on and on and on and on.

Now we have the High Court saga over Parliaments responsibility. WHY ? A majority voted OUT and OUT means OUT. That's democracy !

We are heading for this countrys second English civil !


The courts are there to make sure things are done legally.

If it wasn't for courts, Lutfur Rahman would not have been removed from office as mayor of Tower Hamlets.

One of the reasons the court overturned the result was that false statements were made during the election campaign. Imagine if we could apply that to the referendum result!


Aren't false statements made during all election campaigns?


Isaac
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Dec 6, 2016, 10:21 PM

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In Reply To
And so the Brexit saga goes on and on and on and on and on.

Now we have the High Court saga over Parliaments responsibility. WHY ? A majority voted OUT and OUT means OUT. That's democracy !

We are heading for this countrys second English civil !


The vote was advisory. Why should 37% dictate to the 63% who didn't vote Leave?

We are a parliamentary democracy - not a populist one.


And would you still be claiming that the vote was advisory if you had got the outcome that you wanted?


Fanatic
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Dec 6, 2016, 10:28 PM

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In Reply To

In Reply To
And so the Brexit saga goes on and on and on and on and on.

Now we have the High Court saga over Parliaments responsibility. WHY ? A majority voted OUT and OUT means OUT. That's democracy !

We are heading for this countrys second English civil !


The courts are there to make sure things are done legally.

If it wasn't for courts, Lutfur Rahman would not have been removed from office as mayor of Tower Hamlets.

One of the reasons the court overturned the result was that false statements were made during the election campaign. Imagine if we could apply that to the referendum result!


Aren't false statements made during all election campaigns?


Yes, but I guess it was the prominence of the statements in this case.

Unfortunately campaigns in both elections and referendums seem to have become far more dishonest from 2010 onwards. I don't remember the 2001 and 2005 elections being so bad.


PaulC
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Dec 6, 2016, 10:40 PM

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And would you still be claiming that the vote was advisory if you had got the outcome that you wanted?


Well we know what your leader would have been claiming:

"The Ukip leader said a small defeat for his leave camp would be “unfinished business” and predicted pressure would grow for a re-run of the 23 June ballot.

Farage told the Mirror: “In a 52-48 referendum this would be unfinished business by a long way. If the remain campaign win two-thirds to one-third that ends it.”"

Doesn't matter what I'd be claiming - the referendum was advisory. That's just a fact. It had no legislative status.


jon b
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And so the Brexit saga goes on and on and on and on and on.

Now we have the High Court saga over Parliaments responsibility. WHY ? A majority voted OUT and OUT means OUT. That's democracy !

We are heading for this countrys second English civil !


Civil War no, General Election maybe.

Even if the Supreme Court decide a vote in Parliament has to start the process of Brexit I doubt whether that would really slow the process, let alone stop it.

In those circumstances I'd expect a short Bill, of a sentence or two, giving the ok for triggering Article 50 to be brought to Parliament. If it wasn't passed, then I'd expect May to call and win a General Election with UKIP sweeping up any seats where Labour MPs tried to oppose the anti EU majorities in their constituencies.

We'd still have Brexit. The real gainers would probably be UKIP and the Tories. With any luck if the Lords obstructed the Article 50 Bill it might provoke reform of that useless decrepit politicians club.


Isaac
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Dec 6, 2016, 11:11 PM

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Post #84 of 446 (2644 views)
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And would you still be claiming that the vote was advisory if you had got the outcome that you wanted?


Well we know what your leader would have been claiming:

"The Ukip leader said a small defeat for his leave camp would be “unfinished business” and predicted pressure would grow for a re-run of the 23 June ballot.

Farage told the Mirror: “In a 52-48 referendum this would be unfinished business by a long way. If the remain campaign win two-thirds to one-third that ends it.”"

Doesn't matter what I'd be claiming - the referendum was advisory. That's just a fact. It had no legislative status.


Yes but that is nothing more than legal rhetoric, if the result wasn't going to be acted upon there would have been no point having a referendum.


PaulC
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Dec 6, 2016, 11:18 PM

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Post #85 of 446 (2635 views)
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Yes but that is nothing more than legal rhetoric, if the result wasn't going to be acted upon there would have been no point having a referendum.


So far as I can see it is being acted upon. But it has to be acted upon within the law of the land. We are a parliamentary democracy, and it doesn't matter how much the mob howls, parliament must give its approval. Or at least that is what the Supreme Court is being asked to consider.


Richard Rundle
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Wasn't the independence of the British judicial system and the principle of British Laws for British People some of the UKIP rhetoric pre-referendum?


007Dale
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Dec 7, 2016, 6:10 AM

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Post #87 of 446 (2559 views)
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Yes but that is nothing more than legal rhetoric, if the result wasn't going to be acted upon there would have been no point having a referendum.


So far as I can see it is being acted upon. But it has to be acted upon within the law of the land. We are a parliamentary democracy, and it doesn't matter how much the mob howls, parliament must give its approval. Or at least that is what the Supreme Court is being asked to consider.

I'm not a legal expert, but hasn't parliament already given its approval when it vote to approve the referendum in the first place?


PaulC
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Dec 7, 2016, 7:43 AM

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I'm not a legal expert, but hasn't parliament already given its approval when it vote to approve the referendum in the first place?


It voted to hold a referendum. It didn't vote to implement the decision.

AS the Government minister David Ledingham told Alex Salmond - the referendum was merely "advisory".


Part-Timer
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Post #89 of 446 (2514 views)
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And so the Brexit saga goes on and on and on and on and on.

Now we have the High Court saga over Parliaments responsibility. WHY ? A majority voted OUT and OUT means OUT. That's democracy !

We are heading for this countrys second English civil !


The courts are there to make sure things are done legally.

If it wasn't for courts, Lutfur Rahman would not have been removed from office as mayor of Tower Hamlets.

One of the reasons the court overturned the result was that false statements were made during the election campaign. Imagine if we could apply that to the referendum result!

Lufthur Rahman was ousted because people had voted who were not entitled to, and promises of housing were given to certain sections of the community in return for their vote. Rahman was found guilty of corrupt and illegal practices. Whether he exaggerated a bit in his election campaign would seem to be pretty irrelevant up against that charge sheet.


007Dale
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Dec 7, 2016, 10:38 AM

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Post #90 of 446 (2499 views)
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I'm not a legal expert, but hasn't parliament already given its approval when it vote to approve the referendum in the first place?


It voted to hold a referendum. It didn't vote to implement the decision.

AS the Government minister David Ledingham told Alex Salmond - the referendum was merely "advisory".


Is it not reasonable to assume that by agreeing to hold the referendum they would be reasonably expected to implement the result?
The referendum bill didn't say "we'll hold the referendum and ignore it if we don't like the result"
That said, I accept the point that the result didn't specify what relationship we have after the exit. my view is we shouldn't need parliament to trigger A50, but they should be consulted on any deals agreed.


Richard Rundle
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Post #91 of 446 (2486 views)
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Is it not reasonable to assume that by agreeing to hold the referendum they would be reasonably expected to implement the result?



Yes it is reasonable. I would say that is also reasonable to allow our elected representatives a large part in the process, not just as a rubber-stamping exercise once the series of deals has been done.


007Dale
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Dec 7, 2016, 12:01 PM

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Post #92 of 446 (2467 views)
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Is it not reasonable to assume that by agreeing to hold the referendum they would be reasonably expected to implement the result?



Yes it is reasonable. I would say that is also reasonable to allow our elected representatives a large part in the process, not just as a rubber-stamping exercise once the series of deals has been done.


I happen to think whatever deal is negotiated will be blocked by at least one EU country and we'all end up leaving with no deal.


mip
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Post #93 of 446 (2461 views)
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In Reply To

In Reply To
Is it not reasonable to assume that by agreeing to hold the referendum they would be reasonably expected to implement the result?



Yes it is reasonable. I would say that is also reasonable to allow our elected representatives a large part in the process, not just as a rubber-stamping exercise once the series of deals has been done.


I happen to think whatever deal is negotiated will be blocked by at least one EU country and we'all end up leaving with no deal.


Not certain about that. I think all countries will be interested in a reasonable deal with the UK, but it has to be a deal where you give as much as you get.

Access to the single market vs freedom of movement will obviously be a main point.


007Dale
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Post #94 of 446 (2419 views)
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I just think any deal that would be suitable to U.K. Will not be Ok with all EU countries. Look at the farce regarding the Canadian trade deal and Wallonia blocking it. That took 7 years.

Yes, if we agreed to open borders, paying in the money and adopting all EU laws, of course they'd be OK with that - but that wouldn't be a deal Britain could live with


mip
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Post #95 of 446 (2381 views)
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I just think any deal that would be suitable to U.K. Will not be Ok with all EU countries. Look at the farce regarding the Canadian trade deal and Wallonia blocking it. That took 7 years.

Yes, if we agreed to open borders, paying in the money and adopting all EU laws, of course they'd be OK with that - but that wouldn't be a deal Britain could live with


I think suitable is the wrong word to use then, advantageous would be more apt.

As a Dane I'd be miffed if you get a deal where you can keep the main benefits of a single market while not having the chores.


prorege
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Post #96 of 446 (2356 views)
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But mip, don't you know we're British and we can do what we like. After all, you'd be speaking German now if it wasn't for us.

We'll have cake and eat it, thank you very much.


Isaac
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Dec 7, 2016, 5:37 PM

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I have to pinch myself occasionally, MP's really are debating our terms of withdrawal from the EUCool!!


robert1988
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Dec 7, 2016, 6:00 PM

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The lib dems seem to accept winning a bi election with less than 50% of the vote, maybe they think less is more, only when it suits them.


The general election and the Scottish independence didn't go the way I wanted so why is no one asking for a second election. As long as atleast 4 parties have equal chance rather than the same 2.


mip
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Dec 7, 2016, 6:58 PM

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Post #99 of 446 (2319 views)
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But mip, don't you know we're British and we can do what we like. After all, you'd be speaking German now if it wasn't for us.

We'll have cake and eat it, thank you very much.


So living in a country that always qualifies for final tournaments and regularly win them...


blackdouglas
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Dec 7, 2016, 7:57 PM

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Post #100 of 446 (2299 views)
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MPs have voted 461-89 to Respect The Result and invoke Article 50 of the Lisbon Treaty by 31 Mar 17

http://www.bbc.co.uk/...uk-politics-38243500



Northwood, Threave Rovers, Arsenal, Rangers (the real ones, NOT qpr),Watford, Rochdale, queen of the south and a few others.


007Dale
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Post #101 of 446 (2675 views)
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MPs have voted 461-89 to Respect The Result and invoke Article 50 of the Lisbon Treaty by 31 Mar 17

http://www.bbc.co.uk/...uk-politics-38243500


I know Ken Clark is a Europhile but still shocked he voted to ignore the will of the people


jon b
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Post #102 of 446 (2666 views)
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MPs have voted 461-89 to Respect The Result and invoke Article 50 of the Lisbon Treaty by 31 Mar 17

http://www.bbc.co.uk/...uk-politics-38243500


I know Ken Clark is a Europhile but still shocked he voted to ignore the will of the people


He voted in line with the vote of the people, the people in his constituency. He was elected to represent the constituency of Rushcliffe. Rushcliffe voted to Remain.

Those MPs ignoring the will of the people are those ignoring how their areas voted in the Referendum.

And he voted yesterday in line with his principles, unlike many of his colleagues. Would you really have expected Douglas Carswell to vote in the Commons to stay in the EU if the Referendum result had gone the other way?!! Crazy


007Dale
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Post #103 of 446 (2643 views)
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We leave together or remain together. KC's constituency have to live with the national together. However inconvenient it is, that's the way it is. The Remainers need to get over it - we're leaving!


PaulC
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Dec 8, 2016, 9:50 AM

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Post #104 of 446 (2638 views)
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We leave together or remain together. KC's constituency have to live with the national together.


That'll be the 35% of the electorate who voted to Leave, then?


007Dale
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Dec 8, 2016, 9:56 AM

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Post #105 of 446 (2634 views)
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We leave together or remain together. KC's constituency have to live with the national together.


That'll be the 35% of the electorate who voted to Leave, then?


52%. You really are clutching at straws. Ever heard the term 'bad loser'?


PaulC
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Dec 8, 2016, 10:26 AM

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Post #106 of 446 (2622 views)
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In Reply To

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We leave together or remain together. KC's constituency have to live with the national together.


That'll be the 35% of the electorate who voted to Leave, then?


52%. You really are clutching at straws. Ever heard the term 'bad loser'?


52%?? Rubbish.

17.4 million/46.5 million

Ever heard the term "bad mathematician"?


Richard Rundle
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Post #107 of 446 (2609 views)
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We leave together or remain together. KC's constituency have to live with the national together. However inconvenient it is, that's the way it is. The Remainers need to get over it - we're leaving!



Yes we are unfortunaetly. But yesterday's vote wasn't an in/out decision, it was mostly about the timetable of the exit. Surely if you disagree with the timetable (and it could be too fast or too slow to disagree), there should be no problem voting against that?


grumpydwarf
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What percentage of the total electorate voted to stay??? 32 per cent perhaps. Point proved- we are leaving-get over it-stop being a remoaner and a bad loser-if the vote had gone the other way it would have been accepted by us Brexiteers- living in Scotland as you do you are welcome to Nicola Sturgeon and her SNP crew.


acmold
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Post #109 of 446 (2598 views)
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What percentage of the total electorate voted to stay??? 32 per cent perhaps. Point proved- we are leaving-get over it-stop being a remoaner and a bad loser-if the vote had gone the other way it would have been accepted by us Brexiteers- living in Scotland as you do you are welcome to Nicola Sturgeon and her SNP crew.


Would it as the petition to have a rerun was set up by a leaver not a remainer. And is this not actually a rerun referenum the first one voted remain? .


PaulC
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Dec 8, 2016, 1:12 PM

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What percentage of the total electorate voted to stay??? 32 per cent perhaps. Point proved- we are leaving-get over it-stop being a remoaner and a bad loser-if the vote had gone the other way it would have been accepted by us Brexiteers- living in Scotland as you do you are welcome to Nicola Sturgeon and her SNP crew.



LOl! You are detached from reality. Your leader, Farage, said a small majority in favour of remain would mean 'unfinished business'.

Brexiteers seem to think they are a majority of the British people. They aren't. They are 35% of the electorate.


007Dale
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Post #111 of 446 (2547 views)
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You'd make a good Iraqi minister of Propaganda.

"We are winning, we are....no, those aren't American tanks in the background..."


PaulC
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Dec 8, 2016, 3:48 PM

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Post #112 of 446 (2529 views)
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You'd make a good Iraqi minister of Propaganda.

"We are winning, we are....no, those aren't American tanks in the background..."


Are there any facts in my posts you wish to dispute?


jon b
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Post #113 of 446 (2490 views)
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What percentage of the total electorate voted to stay??? 32 per cent perhaps. Point proved- we are leaving-get over it-stop being a remoaner and a bad loser-if the vote had gone the other way it would have been accepted by us Brexiteers- living in Scotland as you do you are welcome to Nicola Sturgeon and her SNP crew.


The Ukippers would have respected a vote to Remain in the EU in exactly the same way that the SNP respect the vote north of the border to Remain in the UK Cool


garethwrexy
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Dec 8, 2016, 9:21 PM

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Post #114 of 446 (2472 views)
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Doesn't it matter if we're not in the single market



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PaulC
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Dec 8, 2016, 10:21 PM

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In Reply To
What percentage of the total electorate voted to stay??? 32 per cent perhaps. Point proved- we are leaving-get over it-stop being a remoaner and a bad loser-if the vote had gone the other way it would have been accepted by us Brexiteers- living in Scotland as you do you are welcome to Nicola Sturgeon and her SNP crew.


The Ukippers would have respected a vote to Remain in the EU in exactly the same way that the SNP respect the vote north of the border to Remain in the UK Cool


Nonsense.

The SNP has respected the result. However the SNP also respects the right of the people of Scotland to change their mind. If there is a significant change in public opinion the SNP has indicated they will hold another referendum. If there is no significant change, they won't.

Scotland being dragged out of the EU against its wishes might well trigger a change in public opinion.

Now tell me what is unreasonable in any of that.


(This post was edited by PaulC on Dec 8, 2016, 10:24 PM)


PaulC
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You'd make a good Iraqi minister of Propaganda.

"We are winning, we are....no, those aren't American tanks in the background..."


Are there any facts in my posts you wish to dispute?


It would appear there aren't.


007Dale
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Post #117 of 446 (2433 views)
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What percentage of the total electorate voted to stay??? 32 per cent perhaps. Point proved- we are leaving-get over it-stop being a remoaner and a bad loser-if the vote had gone the other way it would have been accepted by us Brexiteers- living in Scotland as you do you are welcome to Nicola Sturgeon and her SNP crew.


The Ukippers would have respected a vote to Remain in the EU in exactly the same way that the SNP respect the vote north of the border to Remain in the UK Cool


Couldn't agree more. Victory is sweet though.


jon b
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Post #118 of 446 (2420 views)
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What percentage of the total electorate voted to stay??? 32 per cent perhaps. Point proved- we are leaving-get over it-stop being a remoaner and a bad loser-if the vote had gone the other way it would have been accepted by us Brexiteers- living in Scotland as you do you are welcome to Nicola Sturgeon and her SNP crew.



LOl! You are detached from reality. Your leader, Farage, said a small majority in favour of remain would mean 'unfinished business'.

Brexiteers seem to think they are a majority of the British people. They aren't. They are 35% of the electorate.


They are, of course, a majority of those who could be bothered to vote. That's how democracy works. I don't know what the non voters wanted and if they can't get off their backsides to go and put a cross on a ballot paper……..

I don't particularly care about staying in the EU, but I have little confidence in the likes of Davis, Fox & Johnson obtaining a good Brexit deal.

And I'd expect a lot of effort from within the EU to encourage Financial Services to re-locate from London to Euroland. Shocked

Mind you, if GB Ltd goes into economic meltdown no doubt Farage's nice friend Donald will race to the rescue. Crazy Farageman and Fartman, what could possibly go wrong Tongue


garethwrexy
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Post #119 of 446 (2348 views)
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The stay in camp were project fear



wrexham fc fa trophy winners 2013 !


Fanatic
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The stay in camp were project fear


Why do you parrot this stuff?

Yes, there was scaremongering on the remain side, but the pro-Brexit lot were equally bad. If anything, their scaremongering was more distasteful due to the racial element of some of it.


Isaac
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The stay in camp were project fear


Why do you parrot this stuff?

Yes, there was scaremongering on the remain side, but the pro-Brexit lot were equally bad. If anything, their scaremongering was more distasteful due to the racial element of some of it.


What racial element? Sounds like you're scaremongering now!


Fanatic
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The stay in camp were project fear


Why do you parrot this stuff?

Yes, there was scaremongering on the remain side, but the pro-Brexit lot were equally bad. If anything, their scaremongering was more distasteful due to the racial element of some of it.


What racial element? Sounds like you're scaremongering now!


I'm sure you remember the infamous "Breaking point" poster.


007Dale
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Dec 10, 2016, 12:30 PM

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Post #123 of 446 (2186 views)
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In Reply To

In Reply To

In Reply To
The stay in camp were project fear


Why do you parrot this stuff?

Yes, there was scaremongering on the remain side, but the pro-Brexit lot were equally bad. If anything, their scaremongering was more distasteful due to the racial element of some of it.



What racial element? Sounds like you're scaremongering now!


I'm sure you remember the infamous "Breaking point" poster.


Being against unlimited immigration doesn't mean you're racist. It's about protecting the people already here, including black, white, etc


Isaac
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Dec 10, 2016, 12:52 PM

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Post #124 of 446 (2176 views)
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In Reply To

In Reply To

In Reply To

In Reply To

In Reply To
The stay in camp were project fear


Why do you parrot this stuff?

Yes, there was scaremongering on the remain side, but the pro-Brexit lot were equally bad. If anything, their scaremongering was more distasteful due to the racial element of some of it.



What racial element? Sounds like you're scaremongering now!


I'm sure you remember the infamous "Breaking point" poster.


Being against unlimited immigration doesn't mean you're racist. It's about protecting the people already here, including black, white, etc


Exactly and it beggars belief to me that anybody could seriously suggest that this poster is in anyway racist. Ironically it is precisely this sort of attitude that has driven people towards voting for UKIP.


Fanatic
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Post #125 of 446 (2165 views)
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In Reply To

In Reply To

In Reply To

In Reply To
The stay in camp were project fear


Why do you parrot this stuff?

Yes, there was scaremongering on the remain side, but the pro-Brexit lot were equally bad. If anything, their scaremongering was more distasteful due to the racial element of some of it.



What racial element? Sounds like you're scaremongering now!


I'm sure you remember the infamous "Breaking point" poster.


Being against unlimited immigration doesn't mean you're racist. It's about protecting the people already here, including black, white, etc


I agree, but I'm sure you know there's a difference between being against unlimited immigration and putting up a poster like that.


Isaac
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Post #126 of 446 (3341 views)
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In Reply To

In Reply To

In Reply To

In Reply To

In Reply To
The stay in camp were project fear


Why do you parrot this stuff?

Yes, there was scaremongering on the remain side, but the pro-Brexit lot were equally bad. If anything, their scaremongering was more distasteful due to the racial element of some of it.



What racial element? Sounds like you're scaremongering now!


I'm sure you remember the infamous "Breaking point" poster.


Being against unlimited immigration doesn't mean you're racist. It's about protecting the people already here, including black, white, etc


I agree, but I'm sure you know there's a difference between being against unlimited immigration and putting up a poster like that.


A poster like what? How exactly do you expect the message to be put across?


Part-Timer
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Post #127 of 446 (3331 views)
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The UKIP poster and an image from a Nazi newsreel. So just a hint of demonising a racial minority.



Has Nigel got a shoulder problem? He doesn't seem to be able to get his arm up to the 45 degree mark.


Isaac
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Post #128 of 446 (3294 views)
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The UKIP poster and an image from a Nazi newsreel. So just a hint of demonising a racial minority.



Has Nigel got a shoulder problem? He doesn't seem to be able to get his arm up to the 45 degree mark.


You might just as well have posted a photograph of a football crowd, it would have been just as irrelevantMad!


jon b
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Post #129 of 446 (3289 views)
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The UKIP poster and an image from a Nazi newsreel. So just a hint of demonising a racial minority.



Has Nigel got a shoulder problem? He doesn't seem to be able to get his arm up to the 45 degree mark.


I think you're being a little unfair to Nigel. Surely he's just trying to illustrate that if we're going to have these sort of numbers coming here we'll need to find some extra space. Lebensraum I think they call it.


PaulC
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Post #130 of 446 (3252 views)
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The Torygraph is suggesting the Supreme Court judges will split 7-4, for a 'narrow win' for the Remainers.

It's odd how 63-37% is narrow but 52-48% is overwhelming.

Strange folk, these Brexiteers.


kirby knitters
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Dec 10, 2016, 10:45 PM

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Post #131 of 446 (3235 views)
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Trawling the Conservative papers, dragging up stuff from Nazi Germany and posting 'facts and figures' from god no's where!!

How bitter and twisted can one man possibly be?


PaulC
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Dec 10, 2016, 11:06 PM

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Post #132 of 446 (3222 views)
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Trawling the Conservative papers, dragging up stuff from Nazi Germany and posting 'facts and figures' from god no's where!!

How bitter and twisted can one man possibly be?


What on earth are you on about? Just how confused can one person be?


kirby knitters
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Post #133 of 446 (3210 views)
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Trawling the Conservative papers, dragging up stuff from Nazi Germany and posting 'facts and figures' from god no's where!!

How bitter and twisted can one man possibly be?


What on earth are you on about? Just how confused can one person be?

On what? Your facts and figures? Yep in that case i'm very confused as well as you plumbing the depths of using the Nazi regime to get a point across.


PaulC
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Post #134 of 446 (3201 views)
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Trawling the Conservative papers, dragging up stuff from Nazi Germany and posting 'facts and figures' from god no's where!!

How bitter and twisted can one man possibly be?


What on earth are you on about? Just how confused can one person be?

On what? Your facts and figures? Yep in that case i'm very confused as well as you plumbing the depths of using the Nazi regime to get a point across.


Which facts and figures confuse you? I'l see if I can help you out.

Are you so limited in imagination that you think I have to trawl through the Torygraph to find out what garbage the Torygraph is writing? Dearie me!

Plumbing the depths of the Nazi regime? Do you mean referencing the Daily Heil's description of the Appeal Court judges as "enemies of the people" just as the Nazis did described people who dared disagree with them? Why is that plumbing depths? The depths are the ones plumbed by the likes of the Mail, Express and Sun which the more stupid in our society read and believe. I dare say it is uncomfortable to have the parallels pointed out to you. Far easier to criticise anyone who points out the parallels.


(This post was edited by PaulC on Dec 10, 2016, 11:35 PM)


kirby knitters
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Post #135 of 446 (3190 views)
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Torygraph, Daily Heil? How childish can you possibly get? Enemies of the state headline went slightly over the top in many peoples eyes but in my opinion was not that far off the mark.

Scotland will end up independant over this so everyones a winner!! Even you.


PaulC
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Post #136 of 446 (3180 views)
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Torygraph, Daily Heil? How childish can you possibly get? Enemies of the state headline went slightly over the top in many peoples eyes but in my opinion was not that far off the mark.

Scotland will end up independant over this so everyones a winner!! Even you.


So there we have it.

No facts/figures you need explained apparently.

No denial of the fact that there is no need to trawl the Torygraph to find what nonsense it is printing.

And you regard Appeal Court judges as more or less Enemies of the State for applying the Law.

There's really not much substance in your original personal attack on me, is there? Still, if it makes you feel better...


jon b
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Post #137 of 446 (3064 views)
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And so the Brexit saga goes on and on and on and on and on.

Now we have the High Court saga over Parliaments responsibility. WHY ? A majority voted OUT and OUT means OUT. That's democracy !

We are heading for this countrys second English civil !


And now, according to Mr Hammond, it seems Brexit means Bbbbbbbrrrrrrreeeeeeexxxxxxxiiiiiiiiiittttttt……………….

Looks like he's pleading for that 2 year departure to stretch out until 2050 or maybe 2150. Bad case of the jitters.

Apparently, the Davis/Fox/Johnson back of fag packet plan doesn't really reassure him. Tongue

Perhaps Nigel will have yet another farewell tour as leader of his "low-grade" people in the 2020 General Election.


garethwrexy
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Dec 29, 2016, 1:46 PM

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Post #138 of 446 (2865 views)
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What a year 2016 has been for politicians



wrexham fc fa trophy winners 2013 !


jrev61
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Dec 29, 2016, 6:53 PM

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Post #139 of 446 (2825 views)
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What a year 2016 has been for politicians


At least most of them have come out of it alive, with the sad exception of Jo Cox. It has been a much worse year for musicians and film stars.



jrev61


garethwrexy
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Post #140 of 446 (2821 views)
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Been year not forget for the uk 2016 the start of getting out of the blasted eu



wrexham fc fa trophy winners 2013 !


leohoenig
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Dec 29, 2016, 8:22 PM

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Post #141 of 446 (2795 views)
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Oh yes, a great year for anyone who preaches to increase man's intolerance to the plight of his fellow man



Fat AND Pompous.
The proof that you can have too much of a good thing
Now blogging at http://www.leohoenig.com



(This post was edited by leohoenig on Dec 29, 2016, 8:23 PM)


garethwrexy
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Post #142 of 446 (2731 views)
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The shackles of the Eu have held the uk back but not anymore thank god,



wrexham fc fa trophy winners 2013 !


Isaac
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Post #143 of 446 (2730 views)
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The shackles of the Eu have held the uk back but not anymore thank god,

Indeed, a monumental eventWink!


BigJR
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Post #144 of 446 (2716 views)
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Unfortunately, 2016 seems to have been the year that 'Vlad The Impaler', Putin became the worlds leading player.

He even managed to keep the U.S.A. and the UN out of peace negotiations over Syria. That's what I call worrying !!


garethwrexy
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Post #145 of 446 (2710 views)
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The vote has changed politics for ever in my view



wrexham fc fa trophy winners 2013 !


buncranaboy
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Dec 30, 2016, 2:56 PM

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Post #146 of 446 (2686 views)
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The shackles of the Eu have held the uk back but not anymore thank god,

Held the UK back from doing what exactly?


jon b
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Post #147 of 446 (2644 views)
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Unfortunately, 2016 seems to have been the year that 'Vlad The Impaler', Putin became the worlds leading player.

He even managed to keep the U.S.A. and the UN out of peace negotiations over Syria. That's what I call worrying !!


He seems to be running rings round Obama and NATO. As for Trump and his Twitterings…….

Maybe Brexit's not the big worry Shocked


garethwrexy
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Post #148 of 446 (2636 views)
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Mass immigration



wrexham fc fa trophy winners 2013 !


UKPunk
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Post #149 of 446 (2610 views)
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Mass immigration

I think you're only saying that because you want buncranaboy sent back to Ireland. Tongue



1-0-1-0-4-25-40-65-181-289=606

Last game: Mon 20/8/18
4. Basford United 1 Hednesford Town 2


garethwrexy
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No I want it controlled



wrexham fc fa trophy winners 2013 !


acmold
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Post #151 of 446 (4093 views)
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Mass immigration


Suely the Premier League has the highest percentage of "immigrants" of any organisation in the UK.


buncranaboy
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No I want it controlled

Just bear that in mind when you're necking your German beer whilst washing down your curry, chow mein or kebab


garethwrexy
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Post #153 of 446 (4011 views)
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It be for community's over run with immigrants, yes some immigration has been good for this country but the Labour Party when came to power encouraged it and still in. A mess all these years later, but hope is on the horizon with brexit



wrexham fc fa trophy winners 2013 !

(This post was edited by garethwrexy on Dec 31, 2016, 9:23 AM)


Ronsdog
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Post #154 of 446 (3858 views)
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So Wolfie Corbyn decides to weigh into the immigration debate with a plea to ensure that Immigrant Workers are not exploited.

Mmmm that should go down well with Labour supporters in the North.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/...uk-politics-38561501

What an irrelevance JC and his supporters have become. Not to mention the Labour Party. Unsure


jon b
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Post #155 of 446 (3783 views)
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It be for community's over run with immigrants, yes some immigration has been good for this country but the Labour Party when came to power encouraged it and still in. A mess all these years later, but hope is on the horizon with brexit


Careful Gareth, if Wales threw out immigrants you'd be on your bike Tongue


acmold
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Post #156 of 446 (3691 views)
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If any communities really are overun by immigrants where are they from?. If they are from non EU countries Brexit is basically irrelevant. Immigration from non EU countries may well rise in the future and maybe those claiming benefits as well.


jrev61
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If any communities really are overun by immigrants where are they from?. If they are from non EU countries Brexit is basically irrelevant. Immigration from non EU countries may well rise in the future and maybe those claiming benefits as well.


A recent government report showed that generally speaking EU immigrants are good for the country as they pay taxes and do not receive much in benefits. This does not apply to many from Africa and the Middle East who often claim more in benefits than they pay in tax, especially those who have large families.
Gareth is obviously under the impression that wages will raise in the building industry if immigrants are sent home. In this he is sadly deluded as a major recession would probably happen as a result and also because Poles would be replaced by Irish workers. The agreement on free movement between Ireland and the UK goes back to long before the EU and I assume would continue.



jrev61


Isaac
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Post #158 of 446 (3563 views)
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Hopefully we won't have convicted murderers like this entering the country unhindered.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=ZDuAsuTOapM


colpic
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Post #159 of 446 (3540 views)
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Hopefully we won't have convicted murderers like this entering the country unhindered.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=ZDuAsuTOapM


This highlights the kind of issues that the police have to deal with. They aren't perfect but they deserve more respect than they get.

However, to focus on your point, I'm probably missing something here but I can't see anywhere that this man is a foreign national. In the sentencing report, there is no recommendation for deportation action to be taken which would be the norm in such cases. Is he someone who is subject to control under the Immigration Act? He could just as easily be a British Citizen from what I have read. Grateful if you could clarify this.



Where's the 'ignore this poster' button?


dottirofhod
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I can't see anywhere that this man is a foreign national.

=========================================================

Afghan-born Dutch citizen Piruz.




July 1, 2019 to June 30,2020 = 69 / 59 / 10 / inc 2 x 0-0's. (You know my rules) @ 19 / 09 / 2019.
2019/20. Benelux = Bel = 0-0-0-(0-0-0)-(0-2-1-1)/ Lux = 0-2 / Neth = 0-0-0-(1 - 2) Others France = 0-0 / Germany =0-0-0 / Italy =0-3(Act 4- Frosinone new ground)./ Iberia = P = 0-1 & S = 0-0.

Now blogging at https://eccentricity.video.blog/



Isaac
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Post #161 of 446 (3495 views)
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In Reply To
Hopefully we won't have convicted murderers like this entering the country unhindered.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=ZDuAsuTOapM


This highlights the kind of issues that the police have to deal with. They aren't perfect but they deserve more respect than they get.

However, to focus on your point, I'm probably missing something here but I can't see anywhere that this man is a foreign national. In the sentencing report, there is no recommendation for deportation action to be taken which would be the norm in such cases. Is he someone who is subject to control under the Immigration Act? He could just as easily be a British Citizen from what I have read. Grateful if you could clarify this.


http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-sussex-38614563

He sounds like a real charmer!


jon b
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Post #162 of 446 (3028 views)
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I've always struggled to take seriously Zombie Movies or TV shows but after seeing Blair lurch back on to the political stage…….


garethwrexy
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Post #163 of 446 (2690 views)
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Big week for the uk next week



wrexham fc fa trophy winners 2013 !


PaulC
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Big week for the uk next week


Yes. We have April Fools Day.


Fanatic
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Mar 21, 2017, 8:41 PM

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In Reply To
Big week for the uk next week


Yes. We have April Fools Day.


It's things like this that really make me wish we could upvote posts on the forum.


Ronsdog
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Despite all the doom laden warnings of impending economic catastrophe that will befall the UK as we exit the EU there is reason to be optimistic.....http://www.msn.com/...zation_enabled:false


PaulC
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Mar 22, 2017, 5:08 PM

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Post #167 of 446 (2531 views)
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In Reply To
Big week for the uk next week


Yes. Clocks go back 45 years.


Ronsdog
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Mar 22, 2017, 6:24 PM

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Post #168 of 446 (2506 views)
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In Reply To

In Reply To
Big week for the uk next week


Yes. Clocks go back 45 years.


If only.....we would still be members of the European Economic Community and not enmeshed within a political Europen Union.

Happily we WILL soon escape the clutches of the Eurocrats and their anti free trade club.


(This post was edited by Ronsdog on Mar 22, 2017, 6:40 PM)


garethwrexy
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Mar 22, 2017, 6:43 PM

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Post #169 of 446 (2489 views)
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People need to start accepting we on the start of the process of going out of the Eu, remain need to shut up



wrexham fc fa trophy winners 2013 !


MrTangerineMan
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Mar 22, 2017, 9:05 PM

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Post #170 of 446 (2466 views)
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Sadly, whilst most Remainers can at least begrudgingly accept that we are leaving, there are many who will not shut up.

The thing which I find strange is that we survived as an independent island for 1972 years CE and now we are leaving the EU somehow the Cracken is going to be released upon us according to 'experts'.

These 'experts' have been wrong on just about everything, so I'm pretty sure the UK will be alright in the end.


garethwrexy
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Mar 22, 2017, 9:26 PM

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Post #171 of 446 (2452 views)
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There won't be mass employment when we leave this country could thrive, this will make the uk great again



wrexham fc fa trophy winners 2013 !


dottirofhod
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Mar 22, 2017, 9:43 PM

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Post #172 of 446 (2448 views)
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Maybe.



July 1, 2019 to June 30,2020 = 69 / 59 / 10 / inc 2 x 0-0's. (You know my rules) @ 19 / 09 / 2019.
2019/20. Benelux = Bel = 0-0-0-(0-0-0)-(0-2-1-1)/ Lux = 0-2 / Neth = 0-0-0-(1 - 2) Others France = 0-0 / Germany =0-0-0 / Italy =0-3(Act 4- Frosinone new ground)./ Iberia = P = 0-1 & S = 0-0.

Now blogging at https://eccentricity.video.blog/



windydcfc
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Mar 22, 2017, 9:53 PM

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Post #173 of 446 (2438 views)
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If we wanted real independence, then there are a more organisation than the EU that we'd have to leave. WTO, NATO etc.....


(This post was edited by windydcfc on Mar 22, 2017, 9:54 PM)


Fanatic
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Mar 22, 2017, 10:41 PM

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Post #174 of 446 (2420 views)
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In Reply To
There won't be mass employment when we leave


Possibly the most Freudian EU-related typo I have seen.


(This post was edited by Fanatic on Mar 22, 2017, 10:42 PM)


Fanatic
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Mar 22, 2017, 10:43 PM

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Post #175 of 446 (2411 views)
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In Reply To
People need to start accepting we on the start of the process of going out of the Eu, remain need to shut up


Why should anyone have to shut up about something they think is wrong? Would you have shut up about wanting to leave if remain had won?


Isaac
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Mar 22, 2017, 10:50 PM

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Post #176 of 446 (2415 views)
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In Reply To

In Reply To
People need to start accepting we on the start of the process of going out of the Eu, remain need to shut up


Why should anyone have to shut up about something they think is wrong? Would you have shut up about wanting to leave if remain had won?


We've heard all the arguments for and against over and over again, we've had the referendum and we all know what the outcome was, what more is there to say?

Of course those who desperately wanted to stay in the EU do have the option of emigrating.................bon voyageCool


Fanatic
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Mar 22, 2017, 11:00 PM

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Post #177 of 446 (2408 views)
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In Reply To

In Reply To

In Reply To
People need to start accepting we on the start of the process of going out of the Eu, remain need to shut up


Why should anyone have to shut up about something they think is wrong? Would you have shut up about wanting to leave if remain had won?


We've heard all the arguments for and against over and over again, we've had the referendum and we all know what the outcome was, what more is there to say?


Given that we don't even know what form our exit is going to take (and therefore what exactly the effects are going to be), quite a lot.

David Davis seems to be doing a good job of demonstrating why he was never trusted with a ministerial portfolio before!

The thought has crossed my mind that Theresa May put him, Fox and Johnson in charge of the three departments most responsible for dealing with Brexit in the hope that they would make such an almighty cock-up of it all, that in the end she can turn round and say that going ahead with what they've managed to arrange would be such a disaster that we're better off not doing it.


colpic
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Mar 23, 2017, 12:56 AM

Posts: 3361
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Team(s): Scotter United (Scunthorpe League), AFC Telford(home town club),

Post #178 of 446 (2364 views)
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In Reply To

In Reply To

In Reply To
People need to start accepting we on the start of the process of going out of the Eu, remain need to shut up


Why should anyone have to shut up about something they think is wrong? Would you have shut up about wanting to leave if remain had won?


We've heard all the arguments for and against over and over again, we've had the referendum and we all know what the outcome was, what more is there to say?

Of course those who desperately wanted to stay in the EU do have the option of emigrating.................bon voyageCool


And in a nutshell, you've summed up the Brexiteers position.

By the way, that's 's not a compliment!



Where's the 'ignore this poster' button?


Isaac
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Mar 23, 2017, 6:42 AM

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Post #179 of 446 (2340 views)
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In Reply To

In Reply To

In Reply To

In Reply To
People need to start accepting we on the start of the process of going out of the Eu, remain need to shut up


Why should anyone have to shut up about something they think is wrong? Would you have shut up about wanting to leave if remain had won?


We've heard all the arguments for and against over and over again, we've had the referendum and we all know what the outcome was, what more is there to say?

Of course those who desperately wanted to stay in the EU do have the option of emigrating.................bon voyageCool


And in a nutshell, you've summed up the Brexiteers position.

By the way, that's 's not a compliment!


And you sound like a typical remoaner, and that's not a compliment either.

What would you like, another referendum? Best of three perhaps? Or endless reruns until you get the result that you want?Crazy


Richard Rundle
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Mar 23, 2017, 7:31 AM

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Post #180 of 446 (2332 views)
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In Reply To
People need to start accepting we on the start of the process of going out of the Eu, remain need to shut up


That's not how democracy works. As someone who voted remain, I accept the result of the referendum and that we are going to leave the EU.

However, I still view it as the probably the worst decision the country will make in my lifetime and that the 48% who voted remain can still have a voice. We have a tradition of free speech in this country and a healthy opposition to any government in power at the time is a bedrock of our democracy.


jon b
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Mar 23, 2017, 8:35 AM

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Post #181 of 446 (2326 views)
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In Reply To
People need to start accepting we on the start of the process of going out of the Eu, remain need to shut up


All the Remainers I know have accepted that we're leaving the EU and have no desire for another Godawful referendum campaign despite the narrowness by which they lost to Leave's 51.9% of the vote.

Everyone's hoping that Mrs M and the three Brexiteers can come up with a good exit deal, but if they end up with one that's brown and smelly, people will point it out.


acmold
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Mar 23, 2017, 8:46 AM

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Post #182 of 446 (2317 views)
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In General Elections and even local elections I suspect that remainers are more likely to vote in future than leavers. In my circle of family, friends and associates it is certainly the case probably at a 3 to 1 ratio.


MrTangerineMan
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Mar 23, 2017, 9:18 AM

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Post #183 of 446 (2308 views)
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There are some who think we should indeed leave the WTO, NATO and the UN.

I'm not sure about leaving these - maybe the UN is 'a glorified talking shop' as a commentator stated on TV some time ago (may have been Peter Hitchens but not 100% sure), but the alternative to protection is vulnerability.


colpic
Chelsea Transfer Target


Mar 23, 2017, 9:42 AM

Posts: 3361
Location: North West Lincolnshire
Team(s): Scotter United (Scunthorpe League), AFC Telford(home town club),

Post #184 of 446 (2297 views)
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In Reply To

In Reply To

In Reply To

In Reply To

In Reply To
People need to start accepting we on the start of the process of going out of the Eu, remain need to shut up


Why should anyone have to shut up about something they think is wrong? Would you have shut up about wanting to leave if remain had won?


We've heard all the arguments for and against over and over again, we've had the referendum and we all know what the outcome was, what more is there to say?

Of course those who desperately wanted to stay in the EU do have the option of emigrating.................bon voyageCool


And in a nutshell, you've summed up the Brexiteers position.

By the way, that's 's not a compliment!


And you sound like a typical remoaner, and that's not a compliment either.

What would you like, another referendum? Best of three perhaps? Or endless reruns until you get the result that you want?Crazy


Sorry to disappoint you Captain Mainwaring but my position echoes the posts of Richard Rundle and jonb. The Brexiters have won and we all have to live with the consequences whatever they might be. I just wish the 'winners' wouldn't be quite as gleeful as a lot of them are until the consequences of their actions become clearer. If all works out well, I'll be the first to put my hands up and admit I was wrong and I hope that's the case. I trust that you will do likewise if it doesn't go well......



Where's the 'ignore this poster' button?


PaulC
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Mar 23, 2017, 9:53 AM

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Post #185 of 446 (2294 views)
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In Reply To

What would you like, another referendum? Best of three perhaps? Or endless reruns until you get the result that you want?Crazy


We are leaving.

There seem to be those, however, who think

those who believe Brexit will be a disaster,

who believe many of the Brexiteers did not have a clue what they were unleashing on this country,

who believe this Government has no plan whatsoever

and who believe we are being led into this oblivion by a Government which has abrogated its duties by dragging us out of the EU when it told us such actions would damage this country

...should just keep quiet.


jrev61
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Mar 23, 2017, 10:13 AM

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Post #186 of 446 (2282 views)
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In Reply To
There are some who think we should indeed leave the WTO, NATO and the UN.

I'm not sure about leaving these - maybe the UN is 'a glorified talking shop' as a commentator stated on TV some time ago (may have been Peter Hitchens but not 100% sure), but the alternative to protection is vulnerability.




What about FIFA, that is far more corrupt than the EU, although admittedly less expensive.Smile



jrev61


MrTangerineMan
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Mar 23, 2017, 2:39 PM

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Post #187 of 446 (2225 views)
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I wouldn't object to leaving FIFA - it's had enough chances to change, but won't.


MrTangerineMan
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Mar 23, 2017, 2:44 PM

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Post #188 of 446 (2223 views)
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Whilst true, there are also those who think

* those who believe Brexit will benefit the UK in the long term
* those who knew what they were voting for when they voted Leave
* those that trust the Government, as elected officials, to do the job of delivering Brexit (Hard or Soft)
* those that are against the EU despite its many problems and issues which it cannot or will not solve for fear of offending people

should also just keep quiet.

TL:DR - there are bad eggs on both sides.


(This post was edited by MrTangerineMan on Mar 23, 2017, 5:31 PM)


MrTangerineMan
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Mar 23, 2017, 3:08 PM

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Post #189 of 446 (2215 views)
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     Re: [MrTangerineMan] Brexit negotiations [In reply to]   or Reply Privately

This might be of interest to some, just seen on the Hellenic League website:

'Brexit TV Show Looking For A Leave Family - 23 March

RDF Television are currently making a new one-off programme with the working title of Wife Swap: Brexit Special, and are looking for a family to take part.

They have contacted the Hellenic League, to see if anyone would be interested in getting involved. They are specifically looking for a confident and passionate family to be a part of the programme as ambassadors for the 'leave' side of the debate.

They hope to film between 22-28 April. It's based on an old format that swapped the wives of two families to explore their dynamics. Molly Garfoot of RDF Television explains, "We want to do the same, but this time it's not about who does the washing up and more about how a family decided which way they voted in the referendum and why. This programme is giving two ordinary British families, from either side of the debate, the opportunity to share their opinions on the issue."

If anybody is interested in speaking further, the researcher on the team Lawrence can be reached via email, [email protected]<mailto:[email protected]> or on 0207 013 4091. This would just be for a research chat, with no obligation to take part.'


Part-Timer
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Mar 23, 2017, 4:50 PM

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Post #190 of 446 (2187 views)
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Is it just me or is the Hellenic League not a rather strange choice of organisation to contact to find such a couple?


MrTangerineMan
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Mar 23, 2017, 5:33 PM

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Post #191 of 446 (2169 views)
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Does seem a little strange, but there we go.

I wonder if any of the other leagues will be contacted by RDF or similar companies for programmes.

NWCFL for 'Nudist Trainspotters at Crewe' special perhaps?


jon b
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Mar 23, 2017, 6:40 PM

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Post #192 of 446 (2132 views)
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In Reply To
'Brexit TV Show Looking For A Leave Family - 23 March

RDF Television are currently making a new one-off programme with the working title of Wife Swap: Brexit Special, and are looking for a family to take part.

They have contacted the Hellenic League, to see if anyone would be interested in getting involved. They are specifically looking for a confident and passionate family to be a part of the programme as ambassadors for the 'leave' side of the debate.


Thanks for the warning.

My recollection of the few times I've been forced to endure TV's "Wife Swap" is that the format consists of two families each marvelling at the utter stupidity of the other. An empathy free zone as they loudly slag each other off.

Perhaps they could get Mrs Clegg to swap with whoever happens to be Mrs Farage at the time.


MrTangerineMan
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Mar 23, 2017, 6:47 PM

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Post #193 of 446 (2128 views)
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More likely to get Mrs. Compo or Mrs. Foggy Wink


jon b
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Mar 23, 2017, 8:06 PM

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Post #194 of 446 (2109 views)
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No, definitely Mrs Clegg, just because she hates being called it. Cool

And me a Lib Dem… Tongue


acmold
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Mar 23, 2017, 8:47 PM

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Post #195 of 446 (2089 views)
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In Reply To
Is it just me or is the Hellenic League not a rather strange choice of organisation to contact to find such a couple?


Seems Greek to me. Though the thought of Nude Trainspotters at Crewe is a harrowing thought.


Isaac
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Mar 24, 2017, 9:23 AM

Posts: 9632
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Post #196 of 446 (2017 views)
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In Reply To

In Reply To

In Reply To

In Reply To

In Reply To

In Reply To
People need to start accepting we on the start of the process of going out of the Eu, remain need to shut up


Why should anyone have to shut up about something they think is wrong? Would you have shut up about wanting to leave if remain had won?


We've heard all the arguments for and against over and over again, we've had the referendum and we all know what the outcome was, what more is there to say?

Of course those who desperately wanted to stay in the EU do have the option of emigrating.................bon voyageCool


And in a nutshell, you've summed up the Brexiteers position.

By the way, that's 's not a compliment!


And you sound like a typical remoaner, and that's not a compliment either.

What would you like, another referendum? Best of three perhaps? Or endless reruns until you get the result that you want?Crazy


Sorry to disappoint you Captain Mainwaring but my position echoes the posts of Richard Rundle and jonb. The Brexiters have won and we all have to live with the consequences whatever they might be. I just wish the 'winners' wouldn't be quite as gleeful as a lot of them are until the consequences of their actions become clearer. If all works out well, I'll be the first to put my hands up and admit I was wrong and I hope that's the case. I trust that you will do likewise if it doesn't go well......


I can't say I've noticed any inordinate amount of 'glee', just people who want to get on with implementing what was voted for.


dottirofhod
Man City Transfer Target!


Mar 24, 2017, 11:44 AM

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Post #197 of 446 (1987 views)
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In Reply To

In Reply To
Is it just me or is the Hellenic League not a rather strange choice of organisation to contact to find such a couple?


Seems Greek to me. Though the thought of Nude Trainspotters at Crewe is a harrowing thought.
=====================================================

Is there a platform and time and date for this event ?




July 1, 2019 to June 30,2020 = 69 / 59 / 10 / inc 2 x 0-0's. (You know my rules) @ 19 / 09 / 2019.
2019/20. Benelux = Bel = 0-0-0-(0-0-0)-(0-2-1-1)/ Lux = 0-2 / Neth = 0-0-0-(1 - 2) Others France = 0-0 / Germany =0-0-0 / Italy =0-3(Act 4- Frosinone new ground)./ Iberia = P = 0-1 & S = 0-0.

Now blogging at https://eccentricity.video.blog/



MrTangerineMan
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Mar 24, 2017, 1:08 PM

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Platform 11 tomorrow from 9:30

Bring weak lemon tea and ask for 'Norm'.


Ropemaker
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Mar 24, 2017, 2:41 PM

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Post #199 of 446 (1954 views)
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In Reply To
I can't say I've noticed any inordinate amount of 'glee', just people who want to get on with implementing what was voted for.

People who voted to leave didn't all do so for the same reasons

So chances are whatever deal is negotiated won't please all brexiters and some are going to wish they'd voted to remain



Just because you're paranoid, it doesn't mean they're not out to get you.


dottirofhod
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Mar 24, 2017, 2:57 PM

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I am also sure that many Remainers wanted to stay in for different reasons.
Quite possibly some of those may have changed sides considering the whinging
by the remainers.




Get over it, we are out.



July 1, 2019 to June 30,2020 = 69 / 59 / 10 / inc 2 x 0-0's. (You know my rules) @ 19 / 09 / 2019.
2019/20. Benelux = Bel = 0-0-0-(0-0-0)-(0-2-1-1)/ Lux = 0-2 / Neth = 0-0-0-(1 - 2) Others France = 0-0 / Germany =0-0-0 / Italy =0-3(Act 4- Frosinone new ground)./ Iberia = P = 0-1 & S = 0-0.

Now blogging at https://eccentricity.video.blog/



(This post was edited by dottirofhod on Mar 24, 2017, 2:59 PM)


jon b
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Post #201 of 446 (2306 views)
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In Reply To
I am also sure that many Remainers wanted to stay in for different reasons.
Quite possibly some of those may have changed sides considering the whinging
by the remainers.


Get over it, we are out.


Sadly, there's at least another two years of sore losers and sour winners before we find out what sort of deal we end up with and finally depart the EU.

Then after the Scots depart the other Union, we can get down to the serious stuff of resurrecting Wessex, Mercia, Northumbria….. Wink


garethwrexy
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Post #202 of 446 (2276 views)
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Sorry ?



wrexham fc fa trophy winners 2013 !


grumpydwarf
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Mar 24, 2017, 8:12 PM

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Post #203 of 446 (2264 views)
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to play the devil`s advocate...shouldn`t us in England have a say whether we want Scotland to stay in the UK as well...stands back for some reaction??


Fanatic
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In Reply To
to play the devil`s advocate...shouldn`t us in England have a say whether we want Scotland to stay in the UK as well...stands back for some reaction??


No, that's not how self-determination works.


Richard Rundle
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Post #205 of 446 (2235 views)
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In Reply To
to play the devil`s advocate...shouldn`t us in England have a say whether we want Scotland to stay in the UK as well...stands back for some reaction??


If you take that to the logical extension, perhaps the rest of the EU should have a say in whether the UK leaves the EU or not?


Isaac
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Mar 24, 2017, 10:42 PM

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to play the devil`s advocate...shouldn`t us in England have a say whether we want Scotland to stay in the UK as well...stands back for some reaction??


Not much doubt what this lot think https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=T7G_mDP5DKw


Isaac
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Mar 24, 2017, 10:49 PM

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Post #207 of 446 (2221 views)
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I can't say I've noticed any inordinate amount of 'glee', just people who want to get on with implementing what was voted for.

People who voted to leave didn't all do so for the same reasons

So chances are whatever deal is negotiated won't please all brexiters and some are going to wish they'd voted to remain


You really are clutching at straws, I don't think most people are greatly interested in the finer details, nothing can be worse than the unelected dictatorship that is the EU.


paulh66
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Mar 24, 2017, 10:55 PM

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Post #208 of 446 (2216 views)
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What you call the "finer details" are of paramount importance. Simply telling the world we're going to do our own thing because we don't like Europe isn't quite enough. None of us, you included, have much of a clue what doing our own thing will look like.


jon b
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Mar 24, 2017, 11:28 PM

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Post #209 of 446 (2198 views)
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to play the devil`s advocate...shouldn`t us in England have a say whether we want Scotland to stay in the UK as well...stands back for some reaction??


Not sure how that would work.

If in England we had a vote and voted to end the union then the Scot Nats would have won. Unsure If the vote went the other way, in favour of Scotland staying in the union, then why should Scotland be dictated to by England? Crazy Unions/Marriages survive when both of the parties involved want them to. If one wants to end the partnership then it ends. It doesn't matter if the other partner doesn't want it to end.

I very much hope the union of England and Scotland continues as I really do think we're better together. I'd expect both would be diminished by splitting apart. Whatever happens with Brexit and with the Neverendum I think we're all going to need to hang on to our sense of humour as it looks likely to be a real bumpy ride. Shocked


Fanatic
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Mar 24, 2017, 11:38 PM

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Post #210 of 446 (2191 views)
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You really are clutching at straws, I don't think most people are greatly interested in the finer details, nothing can be worse than the unelected dictatorship that is the EU.


This is exactly the sort of comment that causes so many people to have low opinions of Brexiteers and the sort of childish nonsense that I thought only Gareth would sink to on this forum.

There are many things that could be worse than being in the EU - being out of it with zero trade deals or being reliant on an increasingly protectionist America.

As for the "unelected", do you not remember voting in EU elections (which elect the European Parliament) or British general elections (which give us the government that provides members to the Council of Ministers and selects our EU Commissioner)?


Isaac
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Mar 24, 2017, 11:45 PM

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Post #211 of 446 (2184 views)
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You really are clutching at straws, I don't think most people are greatly interested in the finer details, nothing can be worse than the unelected dictatorship that is the EU.


This is exactly the sort of comment that causes so many people to have low opinions of Brexiteers and the sort of childish nonsense that I thought only Gareth would sink to on this forum.

There are many things that could be worse than being in the EU - being out of it with zero trade deals or being reliant on an increasingly protectionist America.

As for the "unelected", do you not remember voting in EU elections (which elect the European Parliament) or British general elections (which give us the government that provides members to the Council of Ministers and selects our EU Commissioner)?


There is nothing remotely childish about wanting to take control of our own country


Fanatic
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Mar 24, 2017, 11:56 PM

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Post #212 of 446 (2169 views)
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You really are clutching at straws, I don't think most people are greatly interested in the finer details, nothing can be worse than the unelected dictatorship that is the EU.


This is exactly the sort of comment that causes so many people to have low opinions of Brexiteers and the sort of childish nonsense that I thought only Gareth would sink to on this forum.


There is nothing remotely childish about wanting to take control of our own country


I didn't say there was. Crazy


Ronsdog
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Mar 25, 2017, 12:35 AM

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Post #213 of 446 (2155 views)
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What you call the "finer details" are of paramount importance. Simply telling the world we're going to do our own thing because we don't like Europe isn't quite enough. None of us, you included, have much of a clue what doing our own thing will look like.


None of us, including the other 27 members of the club, have a clear idea of what will materialise from the negotiations.
Hopes and aspirations are no more than
that.

If the EU display their normal negotiating dynamic then a last minute deal will be stitched together that will benefit neither the UK or the EU but not do too much damage to either. A fudge.
The fact that ratification will then be required by all 27 members and related local parliaments, will still leave much to chance. There will be horse trading and side deals galore.

I only see a 'hard' exit as a result.

I always expected a 'hard' exit from the club simply because of the convuluted nature of the exit process. It's weighted in favour of the 'club' rather than the member; which just about sums up my feelings regarding the EU.


007Dale
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Mar 25, 2017, 6:29 AM

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Post #214 of 446 (2126 views)
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The brexit deal only needs to be ratified by 20 of the 27 nations, with a minimum of 65% of the EU population.

It then needs to be ratified by a majority in the European Parliament.

Thankfully this should be we're not held up by the Waloons or Luxembourg.

essentially, if we agree a deal with Germany and France, they'll be able to strong-arm enough of the smaller nations. Not expecting too much trouble from the Baltic states as they're currently very grateful for our NATO deployment in Estonia.


paulh66
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Mar 25, 2017, 7:11 AM

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Post #215 of 446 (2112 views)
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In Reply To
You really are clutching at straws, I don't think most people are greatly interested in the finer details, nothing can be worse than the unelected dictatorship that is the EU.


This is exactly the sort of comment that causes so many people to have low opinions of Brexiteers and the sort of childish nonsense that I thought only Gareth would sink to on this forum.


There is nothing remotely childish about wanting to take control of our own country


Quite right. Everything else is merely "fine detail that most people aren't greatly interested in." Crazy


(This post was edited by paulh66 on Mar 25, 2017, 9:34 AM)


leohoenig
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Mar 25, 2017, 8:12 AM

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Post #216 of 446 (2098 views)
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There is nothing remotely childish about wanting to take control of our own country


Then it is just a matter of definition.
Where is the country? Under what rights is it "ours".
Does this country include Scotland, Wessex, Wales, Northumbria or Danelaw?

And once we have taken control, who is in control. Shall we put up the fences, and demand no one in, no one out?

As soon as we want to visit, let alone trade with other countries, we have to accept that we have to agree rules for this trade. After all, they have control of their own countries



Fat AND Pompous.
The proof that you can have too much of a good thing
Now blogging at http://www.leohoenig.com



acmold
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Mar 25, 2017, 9:30 AM

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Post #217 of 446 (2067 views)
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If the cost of living goes up which it will if the pounds. If the government rewrite laws and water down employment laws and benefits cut. Pensions rising to a much higher age than in the rest of Europe. If there is no freedom of movement and a trip abroad means queuing to get into the EU. If EU grants are not replaced by government funding. If your car insurance no longer covers you in the EU. The finer points are what most effects everyone.

I still believe the people who will worst off will be the poor and the rich will get richer. At least there will plenty of jobs picking fruit and veg and working in Coffee shops at the new living wage of £3.75 an hour.


garethwrexy
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Mar 25, 2017, 11:16 AM

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Post #218 of 446 (2039 views)
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I will say this Brexit is start of long journey for those been trying to get us out the Eu, Britain will thrive and be great country to live and work in, immigration will finally be under control too,



wrexham fc fa trophy winners 2013 !


MrTangerineMan
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Mar 25, 2017, 6:42 PM

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Post #219 of 446 (2011 views)
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Article 50 is going to be the start of a very rocky road, but we have made the decision (for better or for worse) and now have to go through with it.

Whatever we think of staying/leaving, the people have spoken, and we have to accept what is coming - good and bad.

Also, it is time for both sides to end the arrogance, petulance and hatred towards each other. It does neither side any good. Not on here, thankfully, but on many Social Media websites the sheer hatred and nastiness of people (on both sides of the debate) was exposed by Brexit.

Maybe with some of the 'meatheads' in society you'd expect colourful language and low intelligence in their responses, but when supposed learned young University students one would expect them to be more erudite in what they said. Sadly, wishing cancer and AIDS (amongst many other nasty threats) on people by the latter shows that a University education does not always equal good manners and a tactile mind.

I will just be glad when it's done.


jrev61
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Mar 25, 2017, 11:11 PM

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Post #220 of 446 (1975 views)
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I will say this Brexit is start of long journey for those been trying to get us out the Eu, Britain will thrive and be great country to live and work in, immigration will finally be under control too,


Do you believe in Santa Claus as well Gareth?



jrev61


garethwrexy
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Mar 26, 2017, 7:52 PM

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Post #221 of 446 (1886 views)
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No, remain are know trying scare people I be fuming if don't leave



wrexham fc fa trophy winners 2013 !


MrTangerineMan
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Mar 26, 2017, 8:55 PM

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Post #222 of 446 (1872 views)
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We will be leaving, that is for sure, and I personally think that it will be a hard Brexit.

No deal is better than a soft deal.

The thing is, we are in a democracy and so both sides have a voice. The thing I find stupid is when it gets threatening and when scare tactics are used - usually a dead give-away that an argument has no substance.

Nobody knows for sure if it will be a good or bad thing, and just as I (for example) can quote facts by respected economists like Mark Blyth as a sound reason for Brexit (I voted Leave) somebody else could counter those facts with an argument of their own. That's great, and debate is to be encouraged instead of shutting debate down and demanding no platform for anybody whom disagrees with you (like a number of Universities have done).

If people are that upset about Brexit and want to stay in the EU, France and Germany etc. have plenty of room so move over there. It would help us with getting our infrastructure sorted and less people here means less pressure on things like the NHS. Protesting and flag-waving and 'we shall overcoming' won't work - doubling down and taking your money and yourself out of the UK will.


Ronsdog
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Mar 26, 2017, 9:02 PM

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Post #223 of 446 (1864 views)
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The brexit deal only needs to be ratified by 20 of the 27 nations, with a minimum of 65% of the EU population.

It then needs to be ratified by a majority in the European Parliament.

Thankfully this should be we're not held up by the Waloons or Luxembourg.

essentially, if we agree a deal with Germany and France, they'll be able to strong-arm enough of the smaller nations. Not expecting too much trouble from the Baltic states as they're currently very grateful for our NATO deployment in Estonia.


Err, how long does this process take?

It's almost 10 months since the result was announced and we haven't even presented our letter of resignation. How much longer will our and the European leaders wish to spin this out? The regs allow for two years for it to be complete....that's 18 months of negotiations resulting in a deal and then six months for ratification. And then will there be resolvement?

If we are not non-members by late Spring 2019 then expect a backlash from the silent majority.

I rarely agree with Gareth, but I'm 100% with him on this one.


Ropemaker
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Mar 26, 2017, 9:08 PM

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Post #224 of 446 (1859 views)
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If people are that upset about Brexit and want to stay in the EU, France and Germany etc. have plenty of room so move over there. It would help us with getting our infrastructure sorted and less people here means less pressure on things like the NHS. Protesting and flag-waving and 'we shall overcoming' won't work - doubling down and taking your money and yourself out of the UK will.

Only to be sent back to the UK when no deal is reached on rights of abode



Just because you're paranoid, it doesn't mean they're not out to get you.


paulh66
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Mar 26, 2017, 9:16 PM

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Post #225 of 446 (1852 views)
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That's a question the main Brexit protagonists should answer. Though they'll never admit it's taking so long simply because they didn't have a meaningful plan in place to effect a Brexit when the vote took place. Rather like the GOP's healthcare electioneering in the US.

Will a pub landlord be leading the backlash of the silent majority? Wink


Isaac
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Mar 26, 2017, 9:25 PM

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Post #226 of 446 (2117 views)
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In Reply To
I will say this Brexit is start of long journey for those been trying to get us out the Eu, Britain will thrive and be great country to live and work in, immigration will finally be under control too,


Do you believe in Santa Claus as well Gareth?


That's a pretty silly comment isn't it?Mad


Isaac
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Mar 26, 2017, 9:28 PM

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Post #227 of 446 (2113 views)
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No, remain are know trying scare people I be fuming if don't leave


Don't worry we're going, all the cow manure from the remoaners has been treated with the contempt it deserve!


(This post was edited by Isaac on Mar 26, 2017, 9:29 PM)


007Dale
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Mar 26, 2017, 9:33 PM

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Post #228 of 446 (2107 views)
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It seems clear to me that the lines have been drawn in the battle, it fundamentally comes down to this: How much will it cost us to have tariff-free access to the European Union.

We're not really going to be arguing over much else as we know we won't get access to the full single market without unlimited immigration and we won't acccept that.

Everything else, such as EU residents in the U.K. will be worked out relatively easily.

It's down to the three amigos to get what we want by paying as small amount of the £50bn as possible.

My prediction is a lot of hard words and posturing by the EU this year and when the French and German elections are out of the way, a draft deal will be in place relatively quickly.


paulh66
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Mar 26, 2017, 9:38 PM

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Post #229 of 446 (2105 views)
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In Reply To
No, remain are know trying scare people I be fuming if don't leave


Don't worry we're going, all the cow manure from the remoaners has been treated with the contempt it deserve!


A perfect pair!
The truly scary thing is the jingoistic arrogance of those who had little clue what they were really voting for, and still have no clue how a Brexit will affect their daily lives, trying not only to tell us that things will be better but - as one of them happily says - "treating with contempt" any concerns raised to the opposite.


Ronsdog
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Mar 26, 2017, 9:47 PM

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Post #230 of 446 (2096 views)
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.
Will a pub landlord be leading the backlash of the silent majority? Wink


Our Nigel is at a loose end. Didn't know he'd become a licencee thoughWink


(This post was edited by Ronsdog on Mar 26, 2017, 9:59 PM)


Fanatic
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Mar 26, 2017, 10:12 PM

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Post #231 of 446 (2077 views)
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Nobody knows for sure if it will be a good or bad thing, and just as I (for example) can quote facts by respected economists like Mark Blyth as a sound reason for Brexit (I voted Leave) somebody else could counter those facts with an argument of their own. That's great, and debate is to be encouraged instead of shutting debate down and demanding no platform for anybody whom disagrees with you (like a number of Universities have done).


Predictions of triumph or disaster are probably best avoided for now, but we should definitely take notice of what is going on. Unfortunately, I suspect a lot of the negative stuff won't be widely publicised, especially things like jobs losses as companies won't want to risk a public backlash, whilst any new jobs being created will be.

A Korean friend who works for LG has told me that almost all the Korean multinational companies are quietly downgrading their UK offices (which were all the European HQs) and upgrading offices in Germany to European HQ. The job losses aren't huge, but we are losing status. This is inline with a report in the Sunday Times today that over 30% of multinationals are now planning to move significant parts of their business out of the UK (this was from a survey done by UBS). I guess the ultimate deal breaker on how much of that happens will be the end result of the trade deal.


In Reply To
If people are that upset about Brexit and want to stay in the EU, France and Germany etc. have plenty of room so move over there. It would help us with getting our infrastructure sorted and less people here means less pressure on things like the NHS. Protesting and flag-waving and 'we shall overcoming' won't work - doubling down and taking your money and yourself out of the UK will.


I have heard that the EU is possibly planning to offer EU passports to people in the UK who wish to remain EU citizens. I'll certainly be taking up that offer if it happens. That or move to Scotland and vote for independence in a few years' time Tongue


Isaac
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Mar 26, 2017, 10:28 PM

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Post #232 of 446 (2054 views)
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In Reply To

In Reply To
No, remain are know trying scare people I be fuming if don't leave


Don't worry we're going, all the cow manure from the remoaners has been treated with the contempt it deserve!


A perfect pair!
The truly scary thing is the jingoistic arrogance of those who had little clue what they were really voting for, and still have no clue how a Brexit will affect their daily lives, trying not only to tell us that things will be better but - as one of them happily says - "treating with contempt" any concerns raised to the opposite.


Oh dear, still clutching desperately at straws are we?Blush


paulh66
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Mar 26, 2017, 10:40 PM

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Post #233 of 446 (2047 views)
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Who's "we"?
You admitted yourself you don't know how Brexit will affect you or anyone else, writing it off as "finer detail" that most people aren't greatly interested in. Ignorance is bliss for some, slightly more worrying for others.


Isaac
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Mar 27, 2017, 8:18 AM

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Post #234 of 446 (1991 views)
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In Reply To
Who's "we"?
You admitted yourself you don't know how Brexit will affect you or anyone else, writing it off as "finer detail" that most people aren't greatly interested in. Ignorance is bliss for some, slightly more worrying for others.


And neither do you know so there is no point wittering on about it, still I'm sure you can find a few more straws to clutch atCrazy


steveking
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Mar 27, 2017, 10:24 AM

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Post #235 of 446 (1972 views)
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No-one is "wittering on". The process of leaving is going to be hugely complicated and similarly damaging if we don't get it right yet every time someone points this out and suggests that we have to think deeply about it they are labelled "remoaners" or "whingers". Such simplistic responses do not ease the feeling that many who voted out did so without trying to understand what it really meant.


Isaac
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Mar 27, 2017, 10:41 AM

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Post #236 of 446 (1965 views)
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In Reply To
No-one is "wittering on". The process of leaving is going to be hugely complicated and similarly damaging if we don't get it right yet every time someone points this out and suggests that we have to think deeply about it they are labelled "remoaners" or "whingers". Such simplistic responses do not ease the feeling that many who voted out did so without trying to understand what it really meant.


I'm probably stating the obvious here but the referendum was about whether we remained in the EU or not and we know what the outcome was.

The finer details are a matter for the elected government and it's quite pathetic for the remoaners to use this as something else to whinge about now that they've realised that they're not going to get the second referendum that they quite illogically demanded.


(This post was edited by Isaac on Mar 27, 2017, 10:43 AM)


paulh66
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Mar 27, 2017, 11:06 AM

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Post #237 of 446 (1952 views)
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How on earth do you conclude that I'm clutching at straws? Laugh. I've no need to clutch at straws as I'm not one of those people you've lazily deemed to be a "remoaner". It's also baffling - and once again scarily symptomatic of the point I actually did make - that such ignorance not only exists but gleefully shows itself off.

Either that or, as the 'real name' you've used in your profile might suggest, you're just on another wind up!


Isaac
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Mar 27, 2017, 11:12 AM

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Post #238 of 446 (1950 views)
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In Reply To
How on earth do you conclude that I'm clutching at straws? Laugh. I've no need to clutch at straws as I'm not one of those people you've lazily deemed to be a "remoaner". It's also baffling - and once again scarily symptomatic of the point I actually did make - that such ignorance not only exists but gleefully shows itself off.

Either that or, as the 'real name' you've used in your profile might suggest, you're just on another wind up!


Well funnily enough I thought you were the one on a wind upMad


mip
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Mar 27, 2017, 11:41 AM

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Post #239 of 446 (1937 views)
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In Reply To

I'm probably stating the obvious here but the referendum was about whether we remained in the EU or not and we know what the outcome was.

The finer details are a matter for the elected government and it's quite pathetic for the remoaners to use this as something else to whinge about now that they've realised that they're not going to get the second referendum that they quite illogically demanded.


Just as a thought experiment, would you be happy no matter what "finer details" your government negotiates?

One of the possibilities is "the Norwegian model" where you stay a member of the single market with free flow of working force. That's also a way of not being an EU member. Obviously not what you want but a possibility. And a possibility that I suppose you'd be unhappy with.

What folks point out is that what you call "finer details" in reality span a huge spectrum of possibilities that will have a big impact on many people's everyday life. And that there indeed still are plenty of points to discuss.

On of the strengths of the leave campaign was that there were a 100 reasons to leave which made it easier to get support. This is now the flipside as a real and specific deal has to be negotiated, and that can only be done in one way. And there's limited time to do it.

Also your government is the government for the entire British population of which a large part didn't want to leave EU. The government should take that into account when they negotiate a deal to trying to foster a united country. It's a nuisance but the World isn't black and white.


Richard Rundle
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I'm probably stating the obvious here but the referendum was about whether we remained in the EU or not and we know what the outcome was.


And every time we have a general election, whoever ends up on the losing side still campaigns against the government, and policies end up being discussed, argued for and against and no-one calls the opposition "whingers" or "moaners".

Why should the losers of a single issue (albeit a big issue) referendum be any different?

There will be 45 years worth of legislation to trawl through to repeal and replace with UK versions and a lot of the "fine detail" will actually be very important to lots of voters, both "Leave" and "Remain". For instance, will access to European health services be available if you fall ill on holiday. Closer to home, perhaps, will the FA be able to establish quotas on foreign players in professional football.

There's lots to so and a lot of debating and negotiating to do over the next 12 months and to suggest that people can argue against the Government of the day on things like the NI changes for self-employed people, but not against, say, access to fishing grounds, seems ridiculous.


Isaac
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I'm probably stating the obvious here but the referendum was about whether we remained in the EU or not and we know what the outcome was.


And every time we have a general election, whoever ends up on the losing side still campaigns against the government, and policies end up being discussed, argued for and against and no-one calls the opposition "whingers" or "moaners".

Why should the losers of a single issue (albeit a big issue) referendum be any different?

There will be 45 years worth of legislation to trawl through to repeal and replace with UK versions and a lot of the "fine detail" will actually be very important to lots of voters, both "Leave" and "Remain". For instance, will access to European health services be available if you fall ill on holiday. Closer to home, perhaps, will the FA be able to establish quotas on foreign players in professional football.

There's lots to so and a lot of debating and negotiating to do over the next 12 months and to suggest that people can argue against the Government of the day on things like the NI changes for self-employed people, but not against, say, access to fishing grounds, seems ridiculous.





Well I can't recall any political parties demanding a rerun of the election because they weren't voted into office can you?

Access to European health services if you fall ill abroad? Don't you take out your own insurance? That's that 'problem' sorted already!

The rest is a matter for the government, what gets me is this ridiculous notion that people who voted leave are suddenly going to regret doing so. It's just not going to happen!


paulh66
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Mar 27, 2017, 2:52 PM

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Access to European health services if you fall ill abroad? Don't you take out your own insurance? That's that 'problem' sorted already!

The rest is a matter for the government, what gets me is this ridiculous notion that people who voted leave are suddenly going to regret doing so. It's just not going to happen!


Obviously they will regret it if they find themselves worse off. Such as in the problem you've apparently just sorted, where the benefits of EHIC would, if lost, simply be replaced by additional travel insurance premiums.


Isaac
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Access to European health services if you fall ill abroad? Don't you take out your own insurance? That's that 'problem' sorted already!

The rest is a matter for the government, what gets me is this ridiculous notion that people who voted leave are suddenly going to regret doing so. It's just not going to happen!


Obviously they will regret it if they find themselves worse off. Such as in the problem you've apparently just sorted, where the benefits of EHIC would, if lost, simply be replaced by additional travel insurance premiums.

Lets just wait and see shall we? Oh and I always take out insurance if I'm going abroad and assumed everybody did likewise, why should another country have to pay for your medical care?


paulh66
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More than happy to wait and see. So long as I'm not slated off as a whinger and a remoaner because I'm not comfortable with the uncertainty by people who know no better.

As for the example in question, seems you've been blissfully unaware of one particular benefit of European unity.


steveking
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Well I can't recall any political parties demanding a rerun of the election because they weren't voted into office can you?

That of course has not been the point of those who want a proper discussion of how we leave. How many other issues are you happy to leave for the government of the day to resolve? Democracy is more than just voting once every few years.


Ropemaker
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Mar 27, 2017, 3:21 PM

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Well I can't recall any political parties demanding a rerun of the election because they weren't voted into office can you?

Well, don't know if he counts but Farage said if the referendum was close that would be grounds for a rerun.

And it was the same result the other way he would now be saying exactly that. But he seems to have forgotten that as the result went his way.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/...-referendum-36306681



Just because you're paranoid, it doesn't mean they're not out to get you.


Isaac
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Well I can't recall any political parties demanding a rerun of the election because they weren't voted into office can you?

Well, don't know if he counts but Farage said if the referendum was close that would be grounds for a rerun.

And it was the same result the other way he would now be saying exactly that. But he seems to have forgotten that as the result went his way.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/...-referendum-36306681

Well I don't agree, indeed I have never claimed to agree with everything Mr Farage says, I just agree with most of it.


Isaac
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Well I can't recall any political parties demanding a rerun of the election because they weren't voted into office can you?

That of course has not been the point of those who want a proper discussion of how we leave. How many other issues are you happy to leave for the government of the day to resolve? Democracy is more than just voting once every few years.

So what do you suggest, a referendum on how we leave? A phone in perhaps? Some things have to be left to the government.


Richard Rundle
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So what do you suggest, a referendum on how we leave? A phone in perhaps? Some things have to be left to the government.


Yes, left to the Government, but with the appropriate scrutiny. I'm not in favour of another referendum, but in general trust politicians (of all parties) to do the right thing for the country long term, about as far as I can throw them.


Isaac
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So what do you suggest, a referendum on how we leave? A phone in perhaps? Some things have to be left to the government.


Yes, left to the Government, but with the appropriate scrutiny. I'm not in favour of another referendum, but in general trust politicians (of all parties) to do the right thing for the country long term, about as far as I can throw them.


Well I didn't vote for the present government but there we are.

Anyway this might explain why so many people want to get out of the EU http://news.sky.com/story/battle-hardened-returning-jihadists-pose-uk-terror-threat-10815737


(This post was edited by Isaac on Mar 27, 2017, 6:27 PM)


garethwrexy
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It's going be a new chapter for the uk



wrexham fc fa trophy winners 2013 !


dottirofhod
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It's going be a new chapter for the uk

=============================================================

Motor bikers parties in the future ?

=============================================================




July 1, 2019 to June 30,2020 = 69 / 59 / 10 / inc 2 x 0-0's. (You know my rules) @ 19 / 09 / 2019.
2019/20. Benelux = Bel = 0-0-0-(0-0-0)-(0-2-1-1)/ Lux = 0-2 / Neth = 0-0-0-(1 - 2) Others France = 0-0 / Germany =0-0-0 / Italy =0-3(Act 4- Frosinone new ground)./ Iberia = P = 0-1 & S = 0-0.

Now blogging at https://eccentricity.video.blog/



colpic
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Mar 27, 2017, 7:08 PM

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I'm probably stating the obvious here but the referendum was about whether we remained in the EU or not and we know what the outcome was.

The finer details are a matter for the elected government and it's quite pathetic for the remoaners to use this as something else to whinge about now that they've realised that they're not going to get the second referendum that they quite illogically demanded.


Just as a thought experiment, would you be happy no matter what "finer details" your government negotiates?

One of the possibilities is "the Norwegian model" where you stay a member of the single market with free flow of working force. That's also a way of not being an EU member. Obviously not what you want but a possibility. And a possibility that I suppose you'd be unhappy with.

What folks point out is that what you call "finer details" in reality span a huge spectrum of possibilities that will have a big impact on many people's everyday life. And that there indeed still are plenty of points to discuss.

On of the strengths of the leave campaign was that there were a 100 reasons to leave which made it easier to get support. This is now the flipside as a real and specific deal has to be negotiated, and that can only be done in one way. And there's limited time to do it.

Also your government is the government for the entire British population of which a large part didn't want to leave EU. The government should take that into account when they negotiate a deal to trying to foster a united country. It's a nuisance but the World isn't black and white.



Interesting post Mip. Looking forward to Isaac's reply. I love a good well informed debate (or even half of one).



Where's the 'ignore this poster' button?


Isaac
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Post #254 of 446 (2038 views)
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In Reply To

In Reply To

I'm probably stating the obvious here but the referendum was about whether we remained in the EU or not and we know what the outcome was.

The finer details are a matter for the elected government and it's quite pathetic for the remoaners to use this as something else to whinge about now that they've realised that they're not going to get the second referendum that they quite illogically demanded.


Just as a thought experiment, would you be happy no matter what "finer details" your government negotiates?

One of the possibilities is "the Norwegian model" where you stay a member of the single market with free flow of working force. That's also a way of not being an EU member. Obviously not what you want but a possibility. And a possibility that I suppose you'd be unhappy with.

What folks point out is that what you call "finer details" in reality span a huge spectrum of possibilities that will have a big impact on many people's everyday life. And that there indeed still are plenty of points to discuss.

On of the strengths of the leave campaign was that there were a 100 reasons to leave which made it easier to get support. This is now the flipside as a real and specific deal has to be negotiated, and that can only be done in one way. And there's limited time to do it.

Also your government is the government for the entire British population of which a large part didn't want to leave EU. The government should take that into account when they negotiate a deal to trying to foster a united country. It's a nuisance but the World isn't black and white.



Interesting post Mip. Looking forward to Isaac's reply. I love a good well informed debate (or even half of one).


Well don't hold your breath, like I said it's down to the government of the day.

Whether I like the deal or not, we're out of the EU and that's the main thing.

Did you have anything worthwhile to add as you apparently like well informed debate?


(This post was edited by Isaac on Mar 27, 2017, 7:15 PM)


colpic
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Mar 27, 2017, 7:19 PM

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Post #255 of 446 (2030 views)
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In Reply To

In Reply To

In Reply To

I'm probably stating the obvious here but the referendum was about whether we remained in the EU or not and we know what the outcome was.

The finer details are a matter for the elected government and it's quite pathetic for the remoaners to use this as something else to whinge about now that they've realised that they're not going to get the second referendum that they quite illogically demanded.


Just as a thought experiment, would you be happy no matter what "finer details" your government negotiates?

One of the possibilities is "the Norwegian model" where you stay a member of the single market with free flow of working force. That's also a way of not being an EU member. Obviously not what you want but a possibility. And a possibility that I suppose you'd be unhappy with.

What folks point out is that what you call "finer details" in reality span a huge spectrum of possibilities that will have a big impact on many people's everyday life. And that there indeed still are plenty of points to discuss.

On of the strengths of the leave campaign was that there were a 100 reasons to leave which made it easier to get support. This is now the flipside as a real and specific deal has to be negotiated, and that can only be done in one way. And there's limited time to do it.

Also your government is the government for the entire British population of which a large part didn't want to leave EU. The government should take that into account when they negotiate a deal to trying to foster a united country. It's a nuisance but the World isn't black and white.



Interesting post Mip. Looking forward to Isaac's reply. I love a good well informed debate (or even half of one).


Well don't hold your breath, like I said it's down to the government of the day.


Thought so. Sticking to gleeful one liners doesn't stimulate much debate does it? On that note, I'll follow my own advice (please refer to signature below).



Where's the 'ignore this poster' button?


MrTangerineMan
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Mar 27, 2017, 7:26 PM

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Post #256 of 446 (2025 views)
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Interesting that many of these Jihadi's are from Middle Class backgrounds, not from poorer backgrounds as the media would have you believe.

Having seen the Twitter backlash to Mr. Lydon's comments to Piers Morgan this morning about Brexit, it is not just Jihadi's that we need to watch but Liberal Students.

A snapshot of what our brightest and youngest minds have to say:

'Everybody who voted for Brexit is a racist - FACT!'
'If you voted for Brexit, I will rape your Daughter in front of you!'
'Brexit supporters deserve death! Can't ISIS kill them?'
'LGBTQ & Muslims unite against Jews & Christian bigots NOW - kill them!'

Obviously not every Remainer is as moronic as these people, but when Leavers get called out for their wrongdoings and indiscretions why aren't Remainers calling out these SJW idiots? Just as the Right Wing had to annex it's share of racists and bigots, so the Left now need to annex their own bigots and hate-preachers.


steveking
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Mar 27, 2017, 7:30 PM

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Post #257 of 446 (2020 views)
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So what do you suggest, a referendum on how we leave? A phone in perhaps?

I would have thought the answer was obvious. Just about any government policy undergoes public scrutiny and debate in the press and TV. Why on earth would this be different, especially as it's about the biggest political and economic change most of us have experienced. Yet any attempt to take part in such a discussion generates the "remoaners" and other insults. One might almost suspect that the Brexit camp is scared of mature discussion even though no-one is suggesting that discussion is about a fresh referendum, just the terms of the exit.


Isaac
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Mar 27, 2017, 7:50 PM

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In Reply To

In Reply To

In Reply To

In Reply To

In Reply To

I'm probably stating the obvious here but the referendum was about whether we remained in the EU or not and we know what the outcome was.

The finer details are a matter for the elected government and it's quite pathetic for the remoaners to use this as something else to whinge about now that they've realised that they're not going to get the second referendum that they quite illogically demanded.


Just as a thought experiment, would you be happy no matter what "finer details" your government negotiates?

One of the possibilities is "the Norwegian model" where you stay a member of the single market with free flow of working force. That's also a way of not being an EU member. Obviously not what you want but a possibility. And a possibility that I suppose you'd be unhappy with.

What folks point out is that what you call "finer details" in reality span a huge spectrum of possibilities that will have a big impact on many people's everyday life. And that there indeed still are plenty of points to discuss.

On of the strengths of the leave campaign was that there were a 100 reasons to leave which made it easier to get support. This is now the flipside as a real and specific deal has to be negotiated, and that can only be done in one way. And there's limited time to do it.

Also your government is the government for the entire British population of which a large part didn't want to leave EU. The government should take that into account when they negotiate a deal to trying to foster a united country. It's a nuisance but the World isn't black and white.



Interesting post Mip. Looking forward to Isaac's reply. I love a good well informed debate (or even half of one).


Well don't hold your breath, like I said it's down to the government of the day.


Thought so. Sticking to gleeful one liners doesn't stimulate much debate does it? On that note, I'll follow my own advice (please refer to signature below).


So why did you only quote part of my post?

Anyway you've answered my question by not answering it.

As for gleeful one liners...............oh the hypocrisy!


Isaac
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Mar 27, 2017, 7:55 PM

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Post #259 of 446 (2001 views)
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So what do you suggest, a referendum on how we leave? A phone in perhaps?

I would have thought the answer was obvious. Just about any government policy undergoes public scrutiny and debate in the press and TV. Why on earth would this be different, especially as it's about the biggest political and economic change most of us have experienced. Yet any attempt to take part in such a discussion generates the "remoaners" and other insults. One might almost suspect that the Brexit camp is scared of mature discussion even though no-one is suggesting that discussion is about a fresh referendum, just the terms of the exit.


No just bored with the repeated whinging, and you still haven't grasped it have you? We're leaving the EU and that trumps everything, any other problems perceived or otherwise are of secondary importance.

Of course if it were to be an unmitigated disaster then you can come back and say that you told me so, but it won't be!


(This post was edited by Isaac on Mar 27, 2017, 7:56 PM)


garethwrexy
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Mar 27, 2017, 7:59 PM

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Eh confused ?



wrexham fc fa trophy winners 2013 !


windydcfc
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Mar 27, 2017, 8:04 PM

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Eh confused ?



You surprise me


paulh66
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Mar 27, 2017, 8:10 PM

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We've certainly grasped that there's a particular breed of ill-informed little Englander who can't see any further than the St George's flag flying at the bottom of his garden. If you're bored and have nothing other than one-line dogma to contribute to a discussion about the terms of exit, why bother?


steveking
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Mar 27, 2017, 8:14 PM

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and you still haven't grasped it have you? We're leaving the EU and that trumps everything,

On the theme of not grasping things you may like to point out where I have said I haven't accepted the result. The vote was out and that's what's happening.

For one more time the issue is not about the exit but about the terms of our exit. It seems a simple enough point even if the issue itself is clearly complicated.

I suspect you just enjoy trotting out the mantra that we're leaving and should get over it without listening to what others are actually saying. When you do that is it any wonder that others suspect that "out" voters deployed the same lack of rigour towards the referendum itself.


Isaac
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Mar 27, 2017, 8:22 PM

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We've certainly grasped that there's a particular breed of ill-informed little Englander who can't see any further than the St George's flag flying at the bottom of his garden. If you're bored and have nothing other than one-line dogma to contribute to a discussion about the terms of exit, why bother?


It has got nothing whatsoever to do with any flag, your ignorance really is staggering. I'll ignore any further comment from you.


Isaac
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Mar 27, 2017, 8:24 PM

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In Reply To
and you still haven't grasped it have you? We're leaving the EU and that trumps everything,

On the theme of not grasping things you may like to point out where I have said I haven't accepted the result. The vote was out and that's what's happening.

For one more time the issue is not about the exit but about the terms of our exit. It seems a simple enough point even if the issue itself is clearly complicated.

I suspect you just enjoy trotting out the mantra that we're leaving and should get over it without listening to what others are actually saying. When you do that is it any wonder that others suspect that "out" voters deployed the same lack of rigour towards the referendum itself.


Like I said, let's wait and see what happens because this is getting nowhere.


garethwrexy
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Special question time on Brexit tonight



wrexham fc fa trophy winners 2013 !


paulh66
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Mar 27, 2017, 9:13 PM

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Special question time on Brexit tonight


Seems pointless - we've had the vote, now we should all just wait and see what happens...Tongue


Fanatic
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In Reply To
Interesting that many of these Jihadi's are from Middle Class backgrounds, not from poorer backgrounds as the media would have you believe.

Having seen the Twitter backlash to Mr. Lydon's comments to Piers Morgan this morning about Brexit, it is not just Jihadi's that we need to watch but Liberal Students.

A snapshot of what our brightest and youngest minds have to say:

'Everybody who voted for Brexit is a racist - FACT!'
'If you voted for Brexit, I will rape your Daughter in front of you!'
'Brexit supporters deserve death! Can't ISIS kill them?'
'LGBTQ & Muslims unite against Jews & Christian bigots NOW - kill them!'

Obviously not every Remainer is as moronic as these people, but when Leavers get called out for their wrongdoings and indiscretions why aren't Remainers calling out these SJW idiots? Just as the Right Wing had to annex it's share of racists and bigots, so the Left now need to annex their own bigots and hate-preachers.


I've googled the four statements above and can't seem to find them anywhere (on Twitter or elsewhere). Looking at the only thing Lydon has tweeted about the interview, I also couldn't see any replies like those. The last one is the sort of nonsensical thing I would expect to see someone write when trying to parody the Daily Mail, so I'd be very interested to see where you actually got it from.

Using the term SJW is a big red flag...


007Dale
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My personal view on this is we'all look back on the historic vote and be grateful we made the decision to leave.

The doomsday scenario of an emergency budget and a recession (as promised by Six-jobs) didn't look even close to accurate.

Businesses like certainty and stability, hence their majority view we should remain, but we see much more optimism for the corporate world than before the vote, and that will only grow as terms of the deal start to emerge.

We will make good trade deals in a fraction of the time it takes the EU to negotiate them. I suspect we'll get tariff free access to the EU if we stump up enough cash and all the minor negotiating points will be dealt with swiftly in 2018.

I see every reason to be hopeful for our country's future, I also believe Scotland will stay in the U.K.

There you go, some good old fashioned British optimism to finish the day!


Richard Rundle
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Mar 27, 2017, 10:25 PM

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What does SJW mean?


Fanatic
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What does SJW mean?


It stands for social justice warrior.

It's usually used by right-wingers to put down people with socially liberal views. Perhaps a more modern version of "political correctness".

https://en.wikipedia.org/...cial_justice_warrior


Ronsdog
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My personal view on this is we'all look back on the historic vote and be grateful we made the decision to leave.

The doomsday scenario of an emergency budget and a recession (as promised by Six-jobs) didn't look even close to accurate.

Businesses like certainty and stability, hence their majority view we should remain, but we see much more optimism for the corporate world than before the vote, and that will only grow as terms of the deal start to emerge.

We will make good trade deals in a fraction of the time it takes the EU to negotiate them. I suspect we'll get tariff free access to the EU if we stump up enough cash and all the minor negotiating points will be dealt with swiftly in 2018.

I see every reason to be hopeful for our country's future, I also believe Scotland will stay in the U.K.

There you go, some good old fashioned British optimism to finish the day!



Whilst we remain a United Kingdom our representatives in Parliament will have the final say, as regards the Brexit Negotiations, thankfully in my opinion.

Sadly there are still some who have not accepted the result. Notably the Lib Dems who are staking staking their political fortunes on mobilising those who voted remain to demand another referendum , this time on the 'Final Deal'.
That attitude clearly shows their intent; to frustrate the will of the people.

The choice was simple Remain/Leave the EU. We voted to resign our membership.
Not the mechanics of how or what our relationship should be after we have left. Or even, if we leave to our economic detriment. We instructed our government to resign our membership.

We know for sure that we will not remain in the Single Market or Customs Union.
Our 'friends', such as they are, within the club will accept our resignation on Wednesday and then a deal will be arrived at. Probably a last minute deal.
The divorce settlement will result in a one off payment £30/50 billion and then our membership fees will cease. That's 20% of the EUs budget walking out of the door.

As regards the 'negotiations' or arguments, on this side of the water they will doubtless continue long and hard with the same disrespect, bluster and emotion as always.

To put it into football parlance the choice was club or country. How emotional a choice is that?


mip
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Mar 27, 2017, 10:32 PM

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In Reply To
My personal view on this is we'all look back on the historic vote and be grateful we made the decision to leave.

The doomsday scenario of an emergency budget and a recession (as promised by Six-jobs) didn't look even close to accurate.

Businesses like certainty and stability, hence their majority view we should remain, but we see much more optimism for the corporate world than before the vote, and that will only grow as terms of the deal start to emerge.

We will make good trade deals in a fraction of the time it takes the EU to negotiate them. I suspect we'll get tariff free access to the EU if we stump up enough cash and all the minor negotiating points will be dealt with swiftly in 2018.

I see every reason to be hopeful for our country's future, I also believe Scotland will stay in the U.K.

There you go, some good old fashioned British optimism to finish the day!


You forgot England will win the 2018 World Cup? Or is that stretching the optimism too far? Wink


(This post was edited by mip on Mar 27, 2017, 10:34 PM)


MrTangerineMan
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I would not be surprised if the accounts which put out these comments weren't deleted, making it harder to trace what was typed out.

I will look to screenshot some next time (is there a way to attach screenshots on here?)

Why is the term SJW a red flag, by the way? That is what they call themselves - what term should be used? Not a loaded question, just keen to know.

SJW's are also far from PC - it isn't PC to ban something or somebody because you disagree with it/them. These people are as extreme as the right-wing nutters, if not more so.


Isaac
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Special question time on Brexit tonight


I saw some of it, the EU are obviously hoping for one last big pay day before we leave and the government need to stand firm, we've been a cash cow for long enough.


mip
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Special question time on Brexit tonight


I saw some of it, the EU are obviously hoping for one last big pay day before we leave and the government need to stand firm, we've been a cash cow for long enough.


Can you substantiate that claim with numbers?


windydcfc
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Special question time on Brexit tonight


I saw some of it, the EU are obviously hoping for one last big pay day before we leave and the government need to stand firm, we've been a cash cow for long enough.
Talking about 'cash cow'. Who is going to subsidize the farming industry to the tune of £6 billion a year & should the farming industry be propped up by our well earned taxes?



007Dale
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Special question time on Brexit tonight


I saw some of it, the EU are obviously hoping for one last big pay day before we leave and the government need to stand firm, we've been a cash cow for long enough.


Can you substantiate that claim with numbers?


In 2015, the U.K. Total bill was £18bn, we get a £5bn rebate, so the sub-total is £13bn. The EU spent £4.5bn in the U.K., therefore our net cost of being in the EU in 2015 was £8.5bn.

These are the facts.


Part-Timer
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In Reply To

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I'm probably stating the obvious here but the referendum was about whether we remained in the EU or not and we know what the outcome was.


And every time we have a general election, whoever ends up on the losing side still campaigns against the government, and policies end up being discussed, argued for and against and no-one calls the opposition "whingers" or "moaners".

Why should the losers of a single issue (albeit a big issue) referendum be any different?

There will be 45 years worth of legislation to trawl through to repeal and replace with UK versions and a lot of the "fine detail" will actually be very important to lots of voters, both "Leave" and "Remain". For instance, will access to European health services be available if you fall ill on holiday. Closer to home, perhaps, will the FA be able to establish quotas on foreign players in professional football.

There's lots to so and a lot of debating and negotiating to do over the next 12 months and to suggest that people can argue against the Government of the day on things like the NI changes for self-employed people, but not against, say, access to fishing grounds, seems ridiculous.





Well I can't recall any political parties demanding a rerun of the election because they weren't voted into office can you?

They don't need to. Five years later there will be another election when everyone has a chance to decide whether the previously elected Government has done what they promised and whether they should be allowed to continue. The referendum said the majority wanted out of the EU. What would be wrong with another referendum, when they have finished negotiating, to see if people are happy with what they have come up with and still want to leave? The politicians didn't think they were capable of making the decision on whether we should stay or go and gave that responsibility directly to the people. Why are they suddenly capable of making the decision as to whether the deal they negotiate is an appropriate one?


mip
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Can you substantiate that claim with numbers?


In 2015, the U.K. Total bill was £18bn, we get a £5bn rebate, so the sub-total is £13bn. The EU spent £4.5bn in the U.K., therefore our net cost of being in the EU in 2015 was £8.5bn.

These are the facts.


You should also subtract money that the EU spends on international aid etc, money UK would be spending in any case.

Given the size of the country, I can see in sources that UK come out as the 8th biggest contributor to EU (counted relative to population).

With the benefits British businesses etc accrue on the basis of an EU membership, I don't think you qualify as a "cash cow".

Leaving all this aside, I think there's an ideological perspective as well. We in western Europe have a responsibility to help Eastern European countries - who just happened to be on the wrong side of the iron curtain - to get back on an equal economical footing. But I know this is an aspect that most people couldn't care less about.


mip
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Mar 28, 2017, 10:53 AM

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Special question time on Brexit tonight


I saw some of it, the EU are obviously hoping for one last big pay day before we leave and the government need to stand firm, we've been a cash cow for long enough.


Isaac, by the way, didn't you tell everyone to let the government alone, let them get on with their job, and not telling them what to do? Tongue


007Dale
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Can you substantiate that claim with numbers?


In 2015, the U.K. Total bill was £18bn, we get a £5bn rebate, so the sub-total is £13bn. The EU spent £4.5bn in the U.K., therefore our net cost of being in the EU in 2015 was £8.5bn.

These are the facts.


You should also subtract money that the EU spends on international aid etc, money UK would be spending in any case.

Given the size of the country, I can see in sources that UK come out as the 8th biggest contributor to EU (counted relative to population).

With the benefits British businesses etc accrue on the basis of an EU membership, I don't think you qualify as a "cash cow".

Leaving all this aside, I think there's an ideological perspective as well. We in western Europe have a responsibility to help Eastern European countries - who just happened to be on the wrong side of the iron curtain - to get back on an equal economical footing. But I know this is an aspect that most people couldn't care less about.



We choose how much we spend on international aid, so not sure why you want to discount that. There's certainly no obligation for us to replace that money out of our own budget.

I've provided the facts as requested, I'll let others argue the toss over benefits we can't easily quantify. All I will say is that we are not the worlds credit card. We are not responsible for countries financial state in Eastern Europe - we already offer them significant support in the form of NATO.


mip
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Mar 28, 2017, 11:09 AM

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In Reply To

In Reply To

In Reply To
Can you substantiate that claim with numbers?


In 2015, the U.K. Total bill was £18bn, we get a £5bn rebate, so the sub-total is £13bn. The EU spent £4.5bn in the U.K., therefore our net cost of being in the EU in 2015 was £8.5bn.

These are the facts.


You should also subtract money that the EU spends on international aid etc, money UK would be spending in any case.

Given the size of the country, I can see in sources that UK come out as the 8th biggest contributor to EU (counted relative to population).

With the benefits British businesses etc accrue on the basis of an EU membership, I don't think you qualify as a "cash cow".

Leaving all this aside, I think there's an ideological perspective as well. We in western Europe have a responsibility to help Eastern European countries - who just happened to be on the wrong side of the iron curtain - to get back on an equal economical footing. But I know this is an aspect that most people couldn't care less about.



We choose how much we spend on international aid, so not sure why you want to discount that. There's certainly no obligation for us to replace that money out of our own budget.

I've provided the facts as requested, I'll let others argue the toss over benefits we can't easily quantify. All I will say is that we are not the worlds credit card. We are not responsible for countries financial state in Eastern Europe - we already offer them significant support in the form of NATO.



You can google "0.7% target". I'm pretty certain that you count part of the money EU spend in your own international aid.

Being the 8th largest contributor to EU doesn't really equate "being the world's credit card", I think.

And as I said, it's a matter of ideology whether you think that you should help others.Being a rich country, my opinion is that it would suit Britain to do so.


Ronsdog
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On a wider point, I have long believed that the EU is a financial basket case and destined for failure sooner rather than later. German, French and Italian banks have not recovered from the 2008 crash as their current share prices and debt ratios indicate. The economies of Greece, Spain and Portugal are symptomatic of this great European failure.

Pro-EU campaigners are in the doldrums. Their efforts now consist of publishing what the Leave camp promised during the campaign. They’re calling it the “Brexit Contract”. And they’re hoping the EU will force the government to breach it. Which the EU is trying to achieve.
The EU’s lead negotiator Michel Barnier continues to lay out his position. Any deal with the EU will require Britain to implement similar policies to the EU’s. We can’t become a low regulation tax haven, for example. After all, it’s unfair to be better than the EU.

Ignoring how on earth such a compulsion is supposed to work in practice, the EU’s position presents the UK with an enormous opportunity. We should go it alone.

Christian Noyer, the former governor of the French central bank, lamented in the Financial Times that the EU doesn’t have its own financial centre. “No other sovereign or monetary zone would allow itself to rely on an offshore centre.”

Allow? It’s not a political decision – it’s a market one. The EU’s best effort to create a European financial centre would be hilarious. It can’t even manage its existing ones. Another European banking crisis is on the horizon.

A series of political elections will be held in 2017, with many to be fought on lines of ‘for’ and ‘against’ membership of the euro. For the first time since its inception in 1957, the European Union cannot afford to take its future for granted

Eurozone economic output has been dire for almost 20 years.

No one pretends the single currency hasn’t contributed to the malaise.

As a response to the continent’s sovereign debt crisis, the European Commission set up the ‘S0’ Indicator – to analyse a country’s economic data.

In February this year, a report from Deutsche Bank warned that, according to the S0 indicator, SIX EU member states are now a financial concern. Its conclusion is especially worrying:

“Even if impending fiscal crises are signalled correctly, there might not be enough time left to counteract the critical developments.”

This is like having an earthquake warning system in place… but with no means to evacuate.

Poor economic performance invariably manifests itself politically.

That makes this year a critical juncture for Europe’s future. And it will play out as the following elections take place:

France – 7th May: The far-right Front National party is the second favourite to win the Presidential election, and is avowedly anti-EU. Its leader Marine Le Pen plans to reintroduce the Franc. Even if they don’t win, they are still pulling France in an increasingly anti-EU direction.

Italy – by April 2018: General election called after pro-EU PM Matteo Renzi was comprehensively defeated on 4th December 2016 in a constitutional referendum. Italy’s three opposition parties are in favour of leaving the euro, which they believe is preventing the country’s economy from growing.

Germany – by October: Angela Merkel’s CDU party has been losing seats to the anti-EU AFD. While unlikely at this point, a Merkel defeat would be the biggest possible blow to the EU’s future. Germany is the continent’s biggest economy.

The countries listed above are the three biggest economies in the Eurozone. If one of them voted to leave the euro or the EU, it would almost certainly precipitate the end of the European Union.

But the potential dangers do not end with them.

Hungary – by Spring 2018: The popular current Prime Minister Viktor Orban has incurred the wrath of the EU by erecting wire borders around the country – in defiance of the EU, which he openly disparages. This is one of the ex Eastern Bloc countries that Mip still feels we owe an allegiance to support . That surely is the job of another failed EU institution the European Bank of Reconstrction and Development.

If just one of these countries left the EU, the financial strain would be immense. The whole project would be called into question. Britain has already left. Should another nation follow… it would be like a theatre filling up with smoke – how long before it becomes a rush to the exit?


007Dale
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Mar 28, 2017, 1:11 PM

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Very good, reasoned & rational post Ronsdog


jon b
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Ignoring how on earth such a compulsion is supposed to work in practice, the EU’s position presents the UK with an enormous opportunity. We should go it alone.



I really, really, really hope you're right.

However, I remember how desperate we were to join the Common Market, to be a member of the club rather than on the outside.

Given that we import vast amounts of food and fuel, the mantra during the 1960s and 1970s was "Export or Die".

At the time access to the European market was seen as crucial to our survival. Maybe globalisation has altered things, but I worry that as a nation we seem to be carrying around masses of debt and hoping that nobody notices.


mip
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Mar 28, 2017, 1:52 PM

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Very good, reasoned & rational post Ronsdog


Indeed!

Reasoned and rational posts are always good no matter if you agree or not! That's proper debate. That's how you broaden your perspective and learn things. And it's what shows populism up for exactly what it is.

One fallacy though, many anti-EU people take pro-EU people to be 100% in agreement with everything that EU stands for. That's wrong. I'm pro-EU because I think it's a better choice than not having EU. There are plenty of things that could be changed, and that we should work to change.


(This post was edited by mip on Mar 28, 2017, 1:52 PM)


PaulC
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Mar 28, 2017, 5:42 PM

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In 2015, the U.K. Total bill was £18bn, we get a £5bn rebate, so the sub-total is £13bn. The EU spent £4.5bn in the U.K., therefore our net cost of being in the EU in 2015 was £8.5bn.

These are the facts.


Well that's just brilliant.

We save £8.5 billion (actually less than that since there are payments from the EU to private companies not included in that figure) and it will only cost us £22 billion.

http://uk.businessinsider.com/...ms-union-gdp-2016-10

Bargain!


PaulC
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Time for a rematch - the 0.52 v the 27.48


(This post was edited by PaulC on Mar 29, 2017, 8:14 AM)


PaulC
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Ropemaker
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Isaac, by the way, didn't you tell everyone to let the government alone, let them get on with their job, and not telling them what to do? Tongue

And how about if the government come back and admit the deal they've got is so bad that we may as well stay in the EU? Wink



Just because you're paranoid, it doesn't mean they're not out to get you.


Ronsdog
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And how about if the government come back and admit the deal they've got is so bad that we may as well stay in the EU? Wink


In short a political suicide note. I don't think so...

Anyway the hare, Article 50, is now off and running.

The divorce proceedings have begun.Cool


(This post was edited by Ronsdog on Mar 29, 2017, 12:49 PM)


PaulC
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Article 50 can be revoked at any time in the next two years.

http://uk.businessinsider.com/...2017-3?r=US&IR=T


Tykeoldboy
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A bill will be introduced that will give powers (known as Henry VIII powers)to MP's to make changes to the law to take account of the negotiations as they proceed.

This to me sounds dangerous. It allows MP's to change UK law which could take away some rights and privacy of UK citizens. This bill is suppose to be used to tweak UK laws as EU laws are removed but it could also be used to amend existing UK only laws.

Is the UK moving towards a Putin or Mugabe style of government?



The feeling of utter devastation when you pick up your mug and realise you already finished your tea.

(This post was edited by Tykeoldboy on Mar 30, 2017, 2:14 PM)


007Dale
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A bill will be introduced that will give powers (known as Henry VIII powers)to MP's to make changes to the law to take account of the negotiations as they proceed.

This to me sounds dangerous. It allows MP's to change UK law which could take away some rights and privacy of UK citizens. This bill is suppose to be used to tweak UK laws as EU laws are removed but it could also be used to amend existing UK only laws.

Is the UK moving towards a Putin or Mugabe style of government?


I'll only worry about that if the General Election in 2020 gets cancelled!

At the minute we have no chance of anything but a strong Tory majority heading our way.
What Corbyn and his socialist chums fail to realise is that they weaken the centre-left ground thus allowing more right extreme right-wing policies to be implemented.


MrTangerineMan
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One thing which may have been overlooked is Article 127 (maybe more important than Article 50):

'Article 127: Each Contracting Party may withdraw from this Agreement provided it gives at least twelve months’ notice in writing to the other Contracting Parties. Immediately after the notification of the intended withdrawal, the other Contracting Parties shall convene a diplomatic conference in order to envisage the necessary modifications to bring to the Agreement.'

British Influence deputy director Jonathan Lis said in The Independent Newspaper:

“It’s not clear whether we are members of the EEA as part of the EU or in our own right. The Government believes we’re in the EEA as part of the EU – if that’s the case then we leave the EEA with Brexit and then we need to reapply to join. “If however we’re independent, then there are two options for the Government. Either the Government can decide to stay in the EEA and the EU cannot force us out, which gives the UK a boost in negotiations and turns all power from EU to UK. If the Government decides to leave [the EEA] then they have to trigger Article 127. “Obviously the best solution is to be part of single market. The best option is to be part of the EEA independently. “


acmold
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Mar 30, 2017, 10:03 PM

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Post #297 of 446 (2084 views)
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Many leavers voted to leave on immigration and it now looks like near freedom of movement will be retained as we need EU workers.

Many remainers were not out and out pro EU but thought it was better than leaving. They wanted to have freedom of movement but would like to see reform of EU regulations and laws.

One day after Article 50 it appears immigration is near the bottom of the list and reform and laws are at the top.


007Dale
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Mar 31, 2017, 7:11 AM

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Post #298 of 446 (2043 views)
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Many leavers voted to leave on immigration and it now looks like near freedom of movement will be retained as we need EU workers.

Many remainers were not out and out pro EU but thought it was better than leaving. They wanted to have freedom of movement but would like to see reform of EU regulations and laws.

One day after Article 50 it appears immigration is near the bottom of the list and reform and laws are at the top.


I think the point is, if we need immigration, we allow it.if we don't, we don't. In the EU, we're not allowed the luxury to decide. However, for me, that wasn't the main reason why i voted to leave.


acmold
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Mar 31, 2017, 8:39 AM

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Post #299 of 446 (2033 views)
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Is that not the whole point it's going to be very difficult to cherry pick imagination if UK residents want any kind of freedom of movement in Europe.

I went to a Jobs Fair last week 25 organisations looking for workers mostly hotel groups and carer organisations. There is a cronic shortage of staff in those sectors. The majority or people who apply to work at them (and were at the Job Fair) are the over 50's and overseas workers. There was an item on BBC breakfast this week about the hotel industry despite paying the living wage there is almost no