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Brexit negotiations

 

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PaulC
Man City Transfer Target!


Dec 6, 2016, 6:28 PM

Posts: 11669
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Post #76 of 446 (2786 views)
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And so the Brexit saga goes on and on and on and on and on.

Now we have the High Court saga over Parliaments responsibility. WHY ? A majority voted OUT and OUT means OUT. That's democracy !

We are heading for this countrys second English civil !


The vote was advisory. Why should 37% dictate to the 63% who didn't vote Leave?

We are a parliamentary democracy - not a populist one.


acmold
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Dec 6, 2016, 6:30 PM

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Post #77 of 446 (2785 views)
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     Re: [BigJR] Brexit negotiations [In reply to]   or

It's only about procedure on how the process is carried out. The leave campaign had no plan and did not know the legal procedures.


Fanatic
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Dec 6, 2016, 7:16 PM

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Post #78 of 446 (2774 views)
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And so the Brexit saga goes on and on and on and on and on.

Now we have the High Court saga over Parliaments responsibility. WHY ? A majority voted OUT and OUT means OUT. That's democracy !

We are heading for this countrys second English civil !


The courts are there to make sure things are done legally.

If it wasn't for courts, Lutfur Rahman would not have been removed from office as mayor of Tower Hamlets.

One of the reasons the court overturned the result was that false statements were made during the election campaign. Imagine if we could apply that to the referendum result!


Isaac
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Dec 6, 2016, 10:15 PM

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Post #79 of 446 (2723 views)
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In Reply To
And so the Brexit saga goes on and on and on and on and on.

Now we have the High Court saga over Parliaments responsibility. WHY ? A majority voted OUT and OUT means OUT. That's democracy !

We are heading for this countrys second English civil !


The courts are there to make sure things are done legally.

If it wasn't for courts, Lutfur Rahman would not have been removed from office as mayor of Tower Hamlets.

One of the reasons the court overturned the result was that false statements were made during the election campaign. Imagine if we could apply that to the referendum result!


Aren't false statements made during all election campaigns?


Isaac
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Dec 6, 2016, 10:21 PM

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Post #80 of 446 (2714 views)
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And so the Brexit saga goes on and on and on and on and on.

Now we have the High Court saga over Parliaments responsibility. WHY ? A majority voted OUT and OUT means OUT. That's democracy !

We are heading for this countrys second English civil !


The vote was advisory. Why should 37% dictate to the 63% who didn't vote Leave?

We are a parliamentary democracy - not a populist one.


And would you still be claiming that the vote was advisory if you had got the outcome that you wanted?


Fanatic
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Dec 6, 2016, 10:28 PM

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Post #81 of 446 (2707 views)
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In Reply To

In Reply To
And so the Brexit saga goes on and on and on and on and on.

Now we have the High Court saga over Parliaments responsibility. WHY ? A majority voted OUT and OUT means OUT. That's democracy !

We are heading for this countrys second English civil !


The courts are there to make sure things are done legally.

If it wasn't for courts, Lutfur Rahman would not have been removed from office as mayor of Tower Hamlets.

One of the reasons the court overturned the result was that false statements were made during the election campaign. Imagine if we could apply that to the referendum result!


Aren't false statements made during all election campaigns?


Yes, but I guess it was the prominence of the statements in this case.

Unfortunately campaigns in both elections and referendums seem to have become far more dishonest from 2010 onwards. I don't remember the 2001 and 2005 elections being so bad.


PaulC
Man City Transfer Target!


Dec 6, 2016, 10:40 PM

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Post #82 of 446 (2693 views)
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And would you still be claiming that the vote was advisory if you had got the outcome that you wanted?


Well we know what your leader would have been claiming:

"The Ukip leader said a small defeat for his leave camp would be “unfinished business” and predicted pressure would grow for a re-run of the 23 June ballot.

Farage told the Mirror: “In a 52-48 referendum this would be unfinished business by a long way. If the remain campaign win two-thirds to one-third that ends it.”"

Doesn't matter what I'd be claiming - the referendum was advisory. That's just a fact. It had no legislative status.


jon b
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Dec 6, 2016, 10:49 PM

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Post #83 of 446 (2684 views)
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And so the Brexit saga goes on and on and on and on and on.

Now we have the High Court saga over Parliaments responsibility. WHY ? A majority voted OUT and OUT means OUT. That's democracy !

We are heading for this countrys second English civil !


Civil War no, General Election maybe.

Even if the Supreme Court decide a vote in Parliament has to start the process of Brexit I doubt whether that would really slow the process, let alone stop it.

In those circumstances I'd expect a short Bill, of a sentence or two, giving the ok for triggering Article 50 to be brought to Parliament. If it wasn't passed, then I'd expect May to call and win a General Election with UKIP sweeping up any seats where Labour MPs tried to oppose the anti EU majorities in their constituencies.

We'd still have Brexit. The real gainers would probably be UKIP and the Tories. With any luck if the Lords obstructed the Article 50 Bill it might provoke reform of that useless decrepit politicians club.


Isaac
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Dec 6, 2016, 11:11 PM

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Post #84 of 446 (2669 views)
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And would you still be claiming that the vote was advisory if you had got the outcome that you wanted?


Well we know what your leader would have been claiming:

"The Ukip leader said a small defeat for his leave camp would be “unfinished business” and predicted pressure would grow for a re-run of the 23 June ballot.

Farage told the Mirror: “In a 52-48 referendum this would be unfinished business by a long way. If the remain campaign win two-thirds to one-third that ends it.”"

Doesn't matter what I'd be claiming - the referendum was advisory. That's just a fact. It had no legislative status.


Yes but that is nothing more than legal rhetoric, if the result wasn't going to be acted upon there would have been no point having a referendum.


PaulC
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Dec 6, 2016, 11:18 PM

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Post #85 of 446 (2660 views)
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Yes but that is nothing more than legal rhetoric, if the result wasn't going to be acted upon there would have been no point having a referendum.


So far as I can see it is being acted upon. But it has to be acted upon within the law of the land. We are a parliamentary democracy, and it doesn't matter how much the mob howls, parliament must give its approval. Or at least that is what the Supreme Court is being asked to consider.


Richard Rundle
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Dec 6, 2016, 11:51 PM

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Post #86 of 446 (2635 views)
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     Re: [PaulC] Brexit negotiations [In reply to]   or Reply Privately

Wasn't the independence of the British judicial system and the principle of British Laws for British People some of the UKIP rhetoric pre-referendum?


007Dale
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Dec 7, 2016, 6:10 AM

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Post #87 of 446 (2584 views)
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Yes but that is nothing more than legal rhetoric, if the result wasn't going to be acted upon there would have been no point having a referendum.


So far as I can see it is being acted upon. But it has to be acted upon within the law of the land. We are a parliamentary democracy, and it doesn't matter how much the mob howls, parliament must give its approval. Or at least that is what the Supreme Court is being asked to consider.

I'm not a legal expert, but hasn't parliament already given its approval when it vote to approve the referendum in the first place?


PaulC
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Dec 7, 2016, 7:43 AM

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Post #88 of 446 (2566 views)
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I'm not a legal expert, but hasn't parliament already given its approval when it vote to approve the referendum in the first place?


It voted to hold a referendum. It didn't vote to implement the decision.

AS the Government minister David Ledingham told Alex Salmond - the referendum was merely "advisory".


Part-Timer
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Dec 7, 2016, 10:14 AM

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Post #89 of 446 (2539 views)
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In Reply To
And so the Brexit saga goes on and on and on and on and on.

Now we have the High Court saga over Parliaments responsibility. WHY ? A majority voted OUT and OUT means OUT. That's democracy !

We are heading for this countrys second English civil !


The courts are there to make sure things are done legally.

If it wasn't for courts, Lutfur Rahman would not have been removed from office as mayor of Tower Hamlets.

One of the reasons the court overturned the result was that false statements were made during the election campaign. Imagine if we could apply that to the referendum result!

Lufthur Rahman was ousted because people had voted who were not entitled to, and promises of housing were given to certain sections of the community in return for their vote. Rahman was found guilty of corrupt and illegal practices. Whether he exaggerated a bit in his election campaign would seem to be pretty irrelevant up against that charge sheet.


007Dale
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Dec 7, 2016, 10:38 AM

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Post #90 of 446 (2524 views)
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In Reply To
I'm not a legal expert, but hasn't parliament already given its approval when it vote to approve the referendum in the first place?


It voted to hold a referendum. It didn't vote to implement the decision.

AS the Government minister David Ledingham told Alex Salmond - the referendum was merely "advisory".


Is it not reasonable to assume that by agreeing to hold the referendum they would be reasonably expected to implement the result?
The referendum bill didn't say "we'll hold the referendum and ignore it if we don't like the result"
That said, I accept the point that the result didn't specify what relationship we have after the exit. my view is we shouldn't need parliament to trigger A50, but they should be consulted on any deals agreed.


Richard Rundle
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Dec 7, 2016, 11:10 AM

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Post #91 of 446 (2511 views)
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Is it not reasonable to assume that by agreeing to hold the referendum they would be reasonably expected to implement the result?



Yes it is reasonable. I would say that is also reasonable to allow our elected representatives a large part in the process, not just as a rubber-stamping exercise once the series of deals has been done.


007Dale
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Dec 7, 2016, 12:01 PM

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Post #92 of 446 (2492 views)
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Is it not reasonable to assume that by agreeing to hold the referendum they would be reasonably expected to implement the result?



Yes it is reasonable. I would say that is also reasonable to allow our elected representatives a large part in the process, not just as a rubber-stamping exercise once the series of deals has been done.


I happen to think whatever deal is negotiated will be blocked by at least one EU country and we'all end up leaving with no deal.


mip
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Dec 7, 2016, 12:09 PM

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Post #93 of 446 (2486 views)
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In Reply To

In Reply To
Is it not reasonable to assume that by agreeing to hold the referendum they would be reasonably expected to implement the result?



Yes it is reasonable. I would say that is also reasonable to allow our elected representatives a large part in the process, not just as a rubber-stamping exercise once the series of deals has been done.


I happen to think whatever deal is negotiated will be blocked by at least one EU country and we'all end up leaving with no deal.


Not certain about that. I think all countries will be interested in a reasonable deal with the UK, but it has to be a deal where you give as much as you get.

Access to the single market vs freedom of movement will obviously be a main point.


007Dale
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Dec 7, 2016, 1:23 PM

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Post #94 of 446 (2444 views)
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I just think any deal that would be suitable to U.K. Will not be Ok with all EU countries. Look at the farce regarding the Canadian trade deal and Wallonia blocking it. That took 7 years.

Yes, if we agreed to open borders, paying in the money and adopting all EU laws, of course they'd be OK with that - but that wouldn't be a deal Britain could live with


mip
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Dec 7, 2016, 3:27 PM

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Post #95 of 446 (2406 views)
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I just think any deal that would be suitable to U.K. Will not be Ok with all EU countries. Look at the farce regarding the Canadian trade deal and Wallonia blocking it. That took 7 years.

Yes, if we agreed to open borders, paying in the money and adopting all EU laws, of course they'd be OK with that - but that wouldn't be a deal Britain could live with


I think suitable is the wrong word to use then, advantageous would be more apt.

As a Dane I'd be miffed if you get a deal where you can keep the main benefits of a single market while not having the chores.


prorege
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Dec 7, 2016, 4:38 PM

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Post #96 of 446 (2381 views)
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But mip, don't you know we're British and we can do what we like. After all, you'd be speaking German now if it wasn't for us.

We'll have cake and eat it, thank you very much.


Isaac
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Dec 7, 2016, 5:37 PM

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Post #97 of 446 (2363 views)
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I have to pinch myself occasionally, MP's really are debating our terms of withdrawal from the EUCool!!


robert1988
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Dec 7, 2016, 6:00 PM

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Post #98 of 446 (2359 views)
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The lib dems seem to accept winning a bi election with less than 50% of the vote, maybe they think less is more, only when it suits them.


The general election and the Scottish independence didn't go the way I wanted so why is no one asking for a second election. As long as atleast 4 parties have equal chance rather than the same 2.


mip
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Dec 7, 2016, 6:58 PM

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Post #99 of 446 (2344 views)
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But mip, don't you know we're British and we can do what we like. After all, you'd be speaking German now if it wasn't for us.

We'll have cake and eat it, thank you very much.


So living in a country that always qualifies for final tournaments and regularly win them...


blackdouglas
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Dec 7, 2016, 7:57 PM

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Post #100 of 446 (2324 views)
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MPs have voted 461-89 to Respect The Result and invoke Article 50 of the Lisbon Treaty by 31 Mar 17

http://www.bbc.co.uk/...uk-politics-38243500



Northwood, Threave Rovers, Arsenal, Rangers (the real ones, NOT qpr),Watford, Rochdale, queen of the south and a few others.

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