Non League Matters - The Continuation of Tonys english Football Site 



  Main Index MAIN
INDEX
Search Posts SEARCH
POSTS
Who's Online WHO'S
ONLINE
Log in LOG
IN

THIS FORUM IS NOW READ ONLY - PLEASE HEAD OVER TO THE NEW FORUM HERE (CLICK LINK) TO REGISTER A NEW ACCOUNT - THANKS

Home: Non Football Related: General Chat:
The Brexit Tharead Mark 3

 

First page Previous page 1 2 3 4 5 6 Next page Last page  View All


paulh66
Qatar World Cup bid member!


Oct 24, 2019, 2:09 PM

Posts: 19438
Location: Surrey
Team(s): Tranmere Rovers, South Liverpool (the South will rise again), Cammell Laird

Post #76 of 143 (2063 views)
Shortcut
Re: [Isaac] The Brexit Tharead Mark 3 [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately


In Reply To

In Reply To
Johnson presumably prefers a GE to another Referendum because he might well lose a Referendum but in a GE there's little likelihood of Labour or Liberal Democrats standing down to leave just one Remain candidate in constituencies.

.


There is absolutely no logical reason for another referendum, if the result of the first one isn't accepted why would the vote of the second one be and so on and so on?


I'm completely indifferent to the notion of a second referendum but, when I hear the Brexit party itself saying Johnson's deal isn't what the leave voters wanted, and Anna Soubry and others saying that Johnson's deal doesn't deliver any of the pledges promised during the referendum campaign, it cannot sit comfortably with anyone that this deal delivers what the government is telling us the nation wants.

A referendum probably would help in that regard but a general election, where everyone puts their cards on the table and shows not only the merits of their positions on remain/leave but also how that interplays with their other policies, is probably a more robust means to settle it. Of course this would demand each party to have a fully thought-through, cohesive and transparent strategy for running the country. I shan't hold my breath.


(This post was edited by paulh66 on Oct 24, 2019, 2:10 PM)


PaulC
Man City Transfer Target!


Oct 24, 2019, 5:57 PM

Posts: 11894
Location: Ayrshire, Midlothian
Team(s): AFC Darwen, Troon, Ayr Utd, Burnley

Post #77 of 143 (1936 views)
Shortcut
Re: [paulh66] The Brexit Tharead Mark 3 [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately

The problem with a GE is this.

There is a majority now against Brexit. A binary referendum will show that we no longer want Brexit.

A GE is FPTP and non-binary. The pro-Brexit minority is concentrated in the Tories and BP. The anti-Brexit majority is spread over far more parties. The Tories may get only 35% support but will win a majority in Parliament.

Only a referendum reflects what the electorate thinks of Brexit.


Yatesman
First Team Star

Oct 24, 2019, 6:01 PM

Posts: 1621
Location: A Wee Toon in the Scottish Borders
Team(s):

Post #78 of 143 (1927 views)
Shortcut
Re: [paulh66] The Brexit Tharead Mark 3 [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately


In Reply To

In Reply To

In Reply To
Johnson presumably prefers a GE to another Referendum because he might well lose a Referendum but in a GE there's little likelihood of Labour or Liberal Democrats standing down to leave just one Remain candidate in constituencies.

.


There is absolutely no logical reason for another referendum, if the result of the first one isn't accepted why would the vote of the second one be and so on and so on?


I'm completely indifferent to the notion of a second referendum but, when I hear the Brexit party itself saying Johnson's deal isn't what the leave voters wanted, and Anna Soubry and others saying that Johnson's deal doesn't deliver any of the pledges promised during the referendum campaign, it cannot sit comfortably with anyone that this deal delivers what the government is telling us the nation wants.

A referendum probably would help in that regard but a general election, where everyone puts their cards on the table and shows not only the merits of their positions on remain/leave but also how that interplays with their other policies, is probably a more robust means to settle it. Of course this would demand each party to have a fully thought-through, cohesive and transparent strategy for running the country. I shan't hold my breath.



I would be extremely angry if we have a second referendum .

Let's accept an absolute from now on this thread....

THERE IS NOT A DEAL OUT THERE OR YET UNTHOUGHT OF THAT WILL PLEASE EVERYONE!

There, now let's move the **** on.

We aren't going to get a deal to suit everyone so let's take the deal on offer that allows us to Leave in an orderly fashion.

The Brexit Party speaks for itself, not the 17.4 million.

We, the people, voted Leave because the whole of Parliament gave us that option.

They delegated that decision to the electorate. They handed that decision to us............just that once on that one issue we, the people , were asked to direct Parliament.

Having made our decision we then batted the ball back to Parliament to enact that decision. To negotiate a withdrawal from the EU.

Logic being that we , the UK, and the EU would negotiate in GOOD FAITH and with GOOD GRACE !

Therefore we voted Leave (details tba)

TBA in GOOD FAITH and with GOOD GRACE..

That's the only thing you can be assured the 17.4million voted for.
Any other claims of what the whole 174million voted for is bullshit.

The Government, as the executive, were to be the negotiators and Parliament was there to support the UK position.

Unfortunately Parliament has reneged on that responsibility

Time for a GE.

People vs Parliament


Yatesman
First Team Star

Oct 24, 2019, 6:03 PM

Posts: 1621
Location: A Wee Toon in the Scottish Borders
Team(s):

Post #79 of 143 (1925 views)
Shortcut
Re: [PaulC] The Brexit Tharead Mark 3 [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately


In Reply To
The problem with a GE is this.

There is a majority now against Brexit. A binary referendum will show that we no longer want Brexit.

A GE is FPTP and non-binary. The pro-Brexit minority is concentrated in the Tories and BP. The anti-Brexit majority is spread over far more parties. The Tories may get only 35% support but will win a majority in Parliament.

Only a referendum reflects what the electorate thinks of Brexit.


We had a referendum

The result hasn't been enacted

Parliament has reneged on it's duty to the electorate

A GE will settle matters

People vs Parliament.


Isaac
Man City Transfer Target!

Oct 24, 2019, 6:10 PM

Posts: 9674
Location: Kent
Team(s): ABMU

Post #80 of 143 (1910 views)
Shortcut
Re: [PaulC] The Brexit Tharead Mark 3 [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately


In Reply To
The problem with a GE is this.

There is a majority now against Brexit. A binary referendum will show that we no longer want Brexit.

A GE is FPTP and non-binary. The pro-Brexit minority is concentrated in the Tories and BP. The anti-Brexit majority is spread over far more parties. The Tories may get only 35% support but will win a majority in Parliament.

Only a referendum reflects what the electorate thinks of Brexit.


How arrogant of you to claim that another referendum would show that we no longer want Brexit. You don't know anymore than I do what the outcome would be but I think we can gaurntee one thing, whoever lost would refuse to accept it and we would actually be in a worse mess than we are now.


Isaac
Man City Transfer Target!

Oct 24, 2019, 6:12 PM

Posts: 9674
Location: Kent
Team(s): ABMU

Post #81 of 143 (1908 views)
Shortcut
Re: [jon b] The Brexit Tharead Mark 3 [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately


In Reply To
Johnson thinks he'll do better with a GE than a Referendum, why on earth should his opponents help him out?
.


His opponents aren't going to "help him out" as you put it because they know what the outcome would be.


Yatesman
First Team Star

Oct 24, 2019, 6:14 PM

Posts: 1621
Location: A Wee Toon in the Scottish Borders
Team(s):

Post #82 of 143 (1899 views)
Shortcut
Re: [Isaac] The Brexit Tharead Mark 3 [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately


In Reply To

In Reply To
The problem with a GE is this.

There is a majority now against Brexit. A binary referendum will show that we no longer want Brexit.

A GE is FPTP and non-binary. The pro-Brexit minority is concentrated in the Tories and BP. The anti-Brexit majority is spread over far more parties. The Tories may get only 35% support but will win a majority in Parliament.

Only a referendum reflects what the electorate thinks of Brexit.


How arrogant of you to claim that another referendum would show that we no longer want Brexit. You don't know anymore than I do what the outcome would be but I think we can gaurntee one thing, whoever lost would refuse to accept it and we would actually be in a worse mess than we are now.


Don't forget Remainers have access to Crystal Balls.

They see things no-one else can!


PaulC
Man City Transfer Target!


Oct 24, 2019, 6:16 PM

Posts: 11894
Location: Ayrshire, Midlothian
Team(s): AFC Darwen, Troon, Ayr Utd, Burnley

Post #83 of 143 (1895 views)
Shortcut
Re: [Yatesman] The Brexit Tharead Mark 3 [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately


In Reply To
We had a referendum

The result hasn't been enacted
.


Thatís just as well because the electorate has changed its mind.

What kind of people would inflict upon themselves that which they no longer want?

Madness.


PaulC
Man City Transfer Target!


Oct 24, 2019, 6:17 PM

Posts: 11894
Location: Ayrshire, Midlothian
Team(s): AFC Darwen, Troon, Ayr Utd, Burnley

Post #84 of 143 (1891 views)
Shortcut
Re: [Isaac] The Brexit Tharead Mark 3 [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately


In Reply To

In Reply To
The problem with a GE is this.

There is a majority now against Brexit. A binary referendum will show that we no longer want Brexit.

A GE is FPTP and non-binary. The pro-Brexit minority is concentrated in the Tories and BP. The anti-Brexit majority is spread over far more parties. The Tories may get only 35% support but will win a majority in Parliament.

Only a referendum reflects what the electorate thinks of Brexit.


How arrogant of you to claim that another referendum would show that we no longer want Brexit. You don't know anymore than I do what the outcome would be but I think we can gaurntee one thing, whoever lost would refuse to accept it and we would actually be in a worse mess than we are now.


Nothing arrogant on reporting the outcome of virtually every poll since 2017.


Yatesman
First Team Star

Oct 24, 2019, 6:43 PM

Posts: 1621
Location: A Wee Toon in the Scottish Borders
Team(s):

Post #85 of 143 (1865 views)
Shortcut
Re: [PaulC] The Brexit Tharead Mark 3 [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately


In Reply To

In Reply To
We had a referendum

The result hasn't been enacted
.


Thatís just as well because the electorate has changed its mind.

What kind of people would inflict upon themselves that which they no longer want?

Madness.


Asked them all have you ?

No


Your faith in polls is charming but misguided

Polls are dodgy science

Not even pollsters themselves have the same misguided faith in polls as you seem to.

I would suggest that millions of Remaners accept the inevitability of Leaving the EU and just want it done.


(This post was edited by Yatesman on Oct 24, 2019, 6:46 PM)


Yatesman
First Team Star

Oct 24, 2019, 6:44 PM

Posts: 1621
Location: A Wee Toon in the Scottish Borders
Team(s):

Post #86 of 143 (1863 views)
Shortcut
Re: [PaulC] The Brexit Tharead Mark 3 [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately


In Reply To

In Reply To

In Reply To
The problem with a GE is this.

There is a majority now against Brexit. A binary referendum will show that we no longer want Brexit.

A GE is FPTP and non-binary. The pro-Brexit minority is concentrated in the Tories and BP. The anti-Brexit majority is spread over far more parties. The Tories may get only 35% support but will win a majority in Parliament.

Only a referendum reflects what the electorate thinks of Brexit.


How arrogant of you to claim that another referendum would show that we no longer want Brexit. You don't know anymore than I do what the outcome would be but I think we can gaurntee one thing, whoever lost would refuse to accept it and we would actually be in a worse mess than we are now.


Nothing arrogant on reporting the outcome of virtually every poll since 2017.


The arrogance comes from the definitive conclusions based on the dodgy science of polling.


paulh66
Qatar World Cup bid member!


Oct 24, 2019, 6:46 PM

Posts: 19438
Location: Surrey
Team(s): Tranmere Rovers, South Liverpool (the South will rise again), Cammell Laird

Post #87 of 143 (1857 views)
Shortcut
Re: [PaulC] The Brexit Tharead Mark 3 [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately


In Reply To
The problem with a GE is this.

There is a majority now against Brexit. A binary referendum will show that we no longer want Brexit.

A GE is FPTP and non-binary. The pro-Brexit minority is concentrated in the Tories and BP. The anti-Brexit majority is spread over far more parties. The Tories may get only 35% support but will win a majority in Parliament.

Only a referendum reflects what the electorate thinks of Brexit.


The problem with this is that it loses sight of the fact that Brexit is merely a means to an end, not an end in itself. The end being the country's future wellbeing. A GE gives us all the chance to see the full suite of policies proposed by the various parties for our future well being and decide accordingly. That's a far more robust way forward than a second attempt at governing by referendum, which will inevitably get bogged down again in dogma.

Of course if the winner of a GE stood on a manifesto that promised a second referendum then naturally a second referendum should take place.


PaulC
Man City Transfer Target!


Oct 24, 2019, 7:08 PM

Posts: 11894
Location: Ayrshire, Midlothian
Team(s): AFC Darwen, Troon, Ayr Utd, Burnley

Post #88 of 143 (1837 views)
Shortcut
Re: [Yatesman] The Brexit Tharead Mark 3 [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately

Yet there are some who quote a single poll as evidence and then dismiss hundreds of polls because every one comes up with the wrong result.

LOL!


Yatesman
First Team Star

Oct 24, 2019, 9:36 PM

Posts: 1621
Location: A Wee Toon in the Scottish Borders
Team(s):

Post #89 of 143 (1784 views)
Shortcut
Re: [PaulC] The Brexit Tharead Mark 3 [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately


In Reply To
Yet there are some who quote a single poll as evidence and then dismiss hundreds of polls because every one comes up with the wrong result.

LOL!


I don't quote a poll I quote a plebiscite.

As you know, I think polling is dodgy science, based on sound reasoning that I have explained before.

Therefore if one poll is dodgy science it stands to reason, logic and common sense that 100 polls is..............

...........Dodgy Science x 100!!

If you repeat the same behaviour 100 times you can expect the same outcome 100 times.

As referendums seem to have lost credibility in the UK due to lage numbers of the electorate not accepting the result and its consequences and due to large numbers of Leave voters stating very clearly that they would boycott a 2nd referendum then the only acceptable way to move forward is to have a GE.

A People vs Parliament GE.

All issues overed in a GE ..........

Brexit and all its consequences

Everything else too

The People vs Parliament...........Perfect!


jon b
Chelsea Transfer Target

Oct 24, 2019, 10:50 PM

Posts: 3068
Location: Dronfield
Team(s): SUFC, SWFC etc

Post #90 of 143 (1743 views)
Shortcut
Re: [Isaac] The Brexit Tharead Mark 3 [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately


In Reply To

In Reply To
Johnson thinks he'll do better with a GE than a Referendum, why on earth should his opponents help him out?
.


His opponents aren't going to "help him out" as you put it because they know what the outcome would be.


True. Although maybe "suspect" rather than "know".

His opponents think he'll have less chance of winning a working majority if they delay the GE. by a few months.

.


paulh66
Qatar World Cup bid member!


Oct 24, 2019, 11:00 PM

Posts: 19438
Location: Surrey
Team(s): Tranmere Rovers, South Liverpool (the South will rise again), Cammell Laird

Post #91 of 143 (1737 views)
Shortcut
Re: [jon b] The Brexit Tharead Mark 3 [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately

At the risk of contradicting myself, I'd suggest the outcome of the next election will be the least predictable of my lifetime.


jon b
Chelsea Transfer Target

Oct 24, 2019, 11:11 PM

Posts: 3068
Location: Dronfield
Team(s): SUFC, SWFC etc

Post #92 of 143 (1736 views)
Shortcut
Re: [Yatesman] The Brexit Tharead Mark 3 [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately


In Reply To


We aren't going to get a deal to suit everyone so let's take the deal on offer that allows us to Leave in an orderly fashion



Now there, if nowhere else I agree with you.

Not because I see Brexit as beneficial to the UK but because France and numerous other EU member states now clearly just want us to go (to put it politely) and take our psychodrama with us.

We have to grab whatever deal we can work with and move on. However, the deal is just the beginning and not even the beginning of the end. Whether we'll even have a UK in a few years time, who knows.

.


jon b
Chelsea Transfer Target

Oct 24, 2019, 11:33 PM

Posts: 3068
Location: Dronfield
Team(s): SUFC, SWFC etc

Post #93 of 143 (1722 views)
Shortcut
Re: [paulh66] The Brexit Tharead Mark 3 [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately


In Reply To
At the risk of contradicting myself, I'd suggest the outcome of the next election will be the least predictable of my lifetime.


I suggest you're absolutely right.

.


Tykeoldboy
Chelsea Transfer Target


Oct 25, 2019, 12:05 AM

Posts: 3310
Location:
Team(s): Doncaster Rovers, Everton

Post #94 of 143 (1707 views)
Shortcut
Re: [Yatesman] The Brexit Tharead Mark 3 [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately


In Reply To

In Reply To
The problem with a GE is this.

There is a majority now against Brexit. A binary referendum will show that we no longer want Brexit.

A GE is FPTP and non-binary. The pro-Brexit minority is concentrated in the Tories and BP. The anti-Brexit majority is spread over far more parties. The Tories may get only 35% support but will win a majority in Parliament.

Only a referendum reflects what the electorate thinks of Brexit.


We had a referendum

The result hasn't been enacted

Parliament has reneged on it's duty to the electorate

A GE will settle matters

People vs Parliament.


The referendum was not legally binding. Thereís no one source that can prove this statement true. That follows from the fact that the European Union Referendum Act 2015 didnít say anything about implementing the result of the vote. It just provided that there should be one.

In other countries, referendums are often legally bindingófor example, because the vote is on whether to amend the constitution. The UK, famously, doesnít have a codified constitution.

A UK referendum will only have the force of law if the Act setting it up says so. In practical terms this would mean someone would be able to go to court to make the government implement the result.

So, purely as a matter of law, neither the government nor Parliament has to do anything about the referendum.



The feeling of utter devastation when you pick up your mug and realise you already finished your tea.


Yatesman
First Team Star

Oct 25, 2019, 6:45 AM

Posts: 1621
Location: A Wee Toon in the Scottish Borders
Team(s):

Post #95 of 143 (1659 views)
Shortcut
Re: [Tykeoldboy] The Brexit Tharead Mark 3 [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately


In Reply To

In Reply To

In Reply To
The problem with a GE is this.

There is a majority now against Brexit. A binary referendum will show that we no longer want Brexit.

A GE is FPTP and non-binary. The pro-Brexit minority is concentrated in the Tories and BP. The anti-Brexit majority is spread over far more parties. The Tories may get only 35% support but will win a majority in Parliament.

Only a referendum reflects what the electorate thinks of Brexit.


We had a referendum

The result hasn't been enacted

Parliament has reneged on it's duty to the electorate

A GE will settle matters

People vs Parliament.


The referendum was not legally binding. Thereís no one source that can prove this statement true. That follows from the fact that the European Union Referendum Act 2015 didnít say anything about implementing the result of the vote. It just provided that there should be one.

In other countries, referendums are often legally bindingófor example, because the vote is on whether to amend the constitution. The UK, famously, doesnít have a codified constitution.

A UK referendum will only have the force of law if the Act setting it up says so. In practical terms this would mean someone would be able to go to court to make the government implement the result.

So, purely as a matter of law, neither the government nor Parliament has to do anything about the referendum.


With respect, this issue has been debated many times on this forum.
It's been settled that the referendum was to be enacted and that was stated by the Gov't of the time and repeated by all the players in the game.

Since then an act of Parliament has been passed through Westminster to enable us to Leave the EU. ( The European Withdrawal Act 2018)............We are on the path to Leaving , a path now being blocked it has to be said


007Dale
First Team Star

Oct 25, 2019, 8:43 AM

Posts: 1826
Location:
Team(s): St Albans City, Leicester City

Post #96 of 143 (1604 views)
Shortcut
Re: [Yatesman] The Brexit Tharead Mark 3 [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately

The order of resolution is:
1. General Election
2a. Enact Brexit policy of winning party
2b. If no outright winner, confirmatory referendum

If the country really has turned Ďremainí then enough Tory seats will be lost to the Lib Demís to stop an overall majority. Ergo, we need another referendum.

If however, a General Election is won by the Tories, we have the Boris Brexit as negotiated with the EU.

This Parliament no longer reflects what the people voted for in 2017 ie 84% of MPís elected on a promise to honour the result of the first referendum WITHOUT a confirmatory vote.


jon b
Chelsea Transfer Target

Oct 25, 2019, 2:17 PM

Posts: 3068
Location: Dronfield
Team(s): SUFC, SWFC etc

Post #97 of 143 (1485 views)
Shortcut
Re: [007Dale] The Brexit Tharead Mark 3 [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately

Given the current state of the parties per Yougov etc I can understand why a first past the post General Election would appeal to Tory Brexiters rather than another Referendum.

The SNP and Lib Dems would probably also do ok in a GE, but why on earth would Labour turkey MPs vote for Christmas?

.


Yatesman
First Team Star

Oct 25, 2019, 5:57 PM

Posts: 1621
Location: A Wee Toon in the Scottish Borders
Team(s):

Post #98 of 143 (1413 views)
Shortcut
Re: [007Dale] The Brexit Tharead Mark 3 [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately


In Reply To
The order of resolution is:
1. General Election
2a. Enact Brexit policy of winning party
2b. If no outright winner, confirmatory referendum

If the country really has turned Ďremainí then enough Tory seats will be lost to the Lib Demís to stop an overall majority. Ergo, we need another referendum.

If however, a General Election is won by the Tories, we have the Boris Brexit as negotiated with the EU.

This Parliament no longer reflects what the people voted for in 2017 ie 84% of MPís elected on a promise to honour the result of the first referendum WITHOUT a confirmatory vote.


That's exactly right.

Your point about hundreds of Labour MP's squatting in Parliament having misled their voters is right on the money!


Chris1963
Man City Transfer Target!

Oct 27, 2019, 7:34 PM

Posts: 7067
Location: North London
Team(s): Oxford United / Groundhopper

Post #99 of 143 (1148 views)
Shortcut
Re: [jon b] The Brexit Tharead Mark 3 [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately


In Reply To
Given the current state of the parties per Yougov etc I can understand why a first past the post General Election would appeal to Tory Brexiters rather than another Referendum.

The SNP and Lib Dems would probably also do ok in a GE, but why on earth would Labour turkey MPs vote for Christmas?


Everyone seems to have forgotten about the Brexit Party. If they field candidates against the Tories, they may split the Tory vote and lead to a situation where the Lib-Dems hold the balance of power.


PaulC
Man City Transfer Target!


Oct 28, 2019, 9:14 AM

Posts: 11894
Location: Ayrshire, Midlothian
Team(s): AFC Darwen, Troon, Ayr Utd, Burnley

Post #100 of 143 (1022 views)
Shortcut
Re: [007Dale] The Brexit Tharead Mark 3 [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately


In Reply To
The order of resolution is:
1. General Election
2a. Enact Brexit policy of winning party
2b. If no outright winner, confirmatory referendum

If the country really has turned Ďremainí then enough Tory seats will be lost to the Lib Demís to stop an overall majority. Ergo, we need another referendum.

If however, a General Election is won by the Tories, we have the Boris Brexit as negotiated with the EU.

This Parliament no longer reflects what the people voted for in 2017 ie 84% of MPís elected on a promise to honour the result of the first referendum WITHOUT a confirmatory vote.


General Elections are FPTP. They are multi-issue. Brexit is but one issue.

A GE may well deliver a Tory majority with 35% of the votes. It does not mean the electorate has voted for Brexit.

They only way to discover what the electorate thinks of the reheated deal Johnson has come up with is to ask them ... via a referendum.

First page Previous page 1 2 3 4 5 6 Next page Last page  View All
 
 


free hit counters

Search for (options) HOSTED BY SUMMIT SOCCER v.1.2.3