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Home: Non-League Football Discussion: General Discussion:
Ref assaulted.

 

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dave
First Team Star

Nov 25, 2008, 6:37 PM

Posts: 2352
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Team(s): AFC Wimbledon

Post #26 of 91 (3464 views)
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Re: [ChesRef] Ref assaulted. [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately

The thing is sometimes even if referees are right, they still get the abuse.

I have thought for a long time that it doesn't really matter what decisions the referee makes, as long as its in favour of your own team. This is my experience of playing, linesman, and watching matches.

Personally one of my hates is when you see that the referee made a right decision and the commontators moan at them for getting it wrong, even when you see on the TV yourself that they were right.


oftenscore6
Chelsea Transfer Target

Nov 26, 2008, 11:54 AM

Posts: 5235
Location: Saddleworth
Team(s): FCUM, MUFC, Hammarby, St Pauli, Hawthorn (AFL)

Post #27 of 91 (3374 views)
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Re: [dave] Ref assaulted. [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately

Sir Alex was only saying on TV last night how good he thought the ref at Villarreal was, so it's not all abuse......Wink



-----------------------------------------------
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With FC United: 134
On the agenda:
15/10 FC United v Basford United
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19/10 Atherton Collieries v FC United


susandy034
Youth Team Sub

Nov 26, 2008, 1:27 PM

Posts: 123
Location: Leeds
Team(s): Bishop's Stortford

Post #28 of 91 (3342 views)
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Re: [Dovecote] Ref assaulted. [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately


In Reply To
My apologies for rising to the bait last night, but I was absolutely furious with the "he's not been found guilty yet" message. Sorry for lowering the tone.


I missed this original exchange and at the risk of reopening a heated debate I just want to say I absolutely 100% agree with the comments of UKpunk and Richard Rundle.

Furthermore I would have been and still am "absolutely furious" at the attitude of Dovecote. I give him credit for apologising at presumably the first possible opportunity but he still seems to have partly missed the point. Innocent until proven guilty is the foundation stone of our legal system and all our freedoms. For me this is absolute no matter how clearly someone is guilty because to undermine this is the thin end of the wedge. Noone suggested any less punishment for the perpetrator - only that we make sure he is found guilty first.


Dovecote
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Nov 26, 2008, 2:31 PM

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Post #29 of 91 (3315 views)
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Re: [susandy034] Ref assaulted. [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately


In Reply To

In Reply To
My apologies for rising to the bait last night, but I was absolutely furious with the "he's not been found guilty yet" message. Sorry for lowering the tone.


I missed this original exchange and at the risk of reopening a heated debate I just want to say I absolutely 100% agree with the comments of UKpunk and Richard Rundle.

Furthermore I would have been and still am "absolutely furious" at the attitude of Dovecote. I give him credit for apologising at presumably the first possible opportunity but he still seems to have partly missed the point. Innocent until proven guilty is the foundation stone of our legal system and all our freedoms. For me this is absolute no matter how clearly someone is guilty because to undermine this is the thin end of the wedge. Noone suggested any less punishment for the perpetrator - only that we make sure he is found guilty first.



Good grief, another one!

In this case it's quite simple:

He. Admitted. His. Guilt.

Ergo he's guilty.

And no matter how much hand-wringing you do, that's the fact. I'm sure you wouldn't be quite so defensive of his so-called rights if this vicious assault had happened to you or to someone close to you.

Are you telling me that his club is wrong to suspend him, because he hasn't been "found guilty" yet?

P.S. my apology was for using a swear word that has since been edited out by TK.


(This post was edited by Dovecote on Nov 26, 2008, 2:39 PM)


susandy034
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Nov 26, 2008, 3:05 PM

Posts: 123
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Post #30 of 91 (3299 views)
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Re: [Dovecote] Ref assaulted. [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately


In Reply To

In Reply To

In Reply To
My apologies for rising to the bait last night, but I was absolutely furious with the "he's not been found guilty yet" message. Sorry for lowering the tone.


I missed this original exchange and at the risk of reopening a heated debate I just want to say I absolutely 100% agree with the comments of UKpunk and Richard Rundle.

Furthermore I would have been and still am "absolutely furious" at the attitude of Dovecote. I give him credit for apologising at presumably the first possible opportunity but he still seems to have partly missed the point. Innocent until proven guilty is the foundation stone of our legal system and all our freedoms. For me this is absolute no matter how clearly someone is guilty because to undermine this is the thin end of the wedge. Noone suggested any less punishment for the perpetrator - only that we make sure he is found guilty first.



Good grief, another one!

In this case it's quite simple:

He. Admitted. His. Guilt.

Ergo he's guilty.

And no matter how much hand-wringing you do, that's the fact. I'm sure you wouldn't be quite so defensive of his so-called rights if this vicious assault had happened to you or to someone close to you.

Are you telling me that his club is wrong to suspend him, because he hasn't been "found guilty" yet?

P.S. my apology was for using a swear word that has since been edited out by TK.


It is quite normal to suspend someone pending an investigation, I have no problem with that.

You seem to be confusing defending someone's rights with trying to get them off punishment. I would defend anyone's rights even if they had assaulted me or someone close to me and if they were found guilty I would expect them to be punished - same as I would the person who assaulted the ref in this case.

I really don't see what the problem is - all I want is for the RIGHT person to be punished. Have you never heard of people confessing to things they didn't do? I admit in this case there doesn't seem to be much doubt but the principle is the same.


rambler77
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Nov 26, 2008, 3:37 PM

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Post #31 of 91 (3290 views)
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Re: [susandy034] Ref assaulted. [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately

It is quite normal to suspend someone pending an investigation, I have no problem with that.

You seem to be confusing defending someone's rights with trying to get them off punishment. I would defend anyone's rights even if they had assaulted me or someone close to me and if they were found guilty I would expect them to be punished - same as I would the person who assaulted the ref in this case.

I really don't see what the problem is - all I want is for the RIGHT person to be punished. Have you never heard of people confessing to things they didn't do? I admit in this case there doesn't seem to be much doubt but the principle is the same.
---------------

But what happens on the sporting field of play doesn't reflect society in terms of punishments for offences and the innocent until proven guilty argument is somewhat irrelevant. If it were the case all sports would be non-contact! Look at what has happened with Ian Hulme (Barnsley) and Chris Morgan - having seen the tv footage countless times what he did is just as bad as punching someone, if not worse.



http://rambler77.zenfolio.com/


susandy034
Youth Team Sub

Nov 26, 2008, 3:45 PM

Posts: 123
Location: Leeds
Team(s): Bishop's Stortford

Post #32 of 91 (3283 views)
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Re: [rambler77] Ref assaulted. [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately


In Reply To
But what happens on the sporting field of play doesn't reflect society in terms of punishments for offences and the innocent until proven guilty argument is somewhat irrelevant. If it were the case all sports would be non-contact! Look at what has happened with Ian Hulme (Barnsley) and Chris Morgan - having seen the tv footage countless times what he did is just as bad as punching someone, if not worse.


I don't understand your argument - if you make contact with another player within the rules of the sport its fine. If its outside the rules of the sport (football in this case) you're punished according to the rules. If you go beyond that to the point where its a crime (eg assault) you can be arrested and tried in court. In all cases you're innocent until someone finds you guilty - in the case of a foul on the football field - you're usually found guilty by the ref and booked or sent off.

As long as you stick to the rules why should this make football a non-contact sport?


John Mills
Reserve Team Star

Nov 26, 2008, 5:04 PM

Posts: 898
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Post #33 of 91 (3239 views)
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Re: [susandy034] Ref assaulted. [In reply to] Can't Post or

Furthermore I would have been and still am "absolutely furious" at the attitude of Dovecote. I give him credit for apologising at presumably the first possible opportunity but he still seems to have partly missed the point. Innocent until proven guilty is the foundation stone of our legal system and all our freedoms. For me this is absolute no matter how clearly someone is guilty because to undermine this is the thin end of the wedge. Noone suggested any less punishment for the perpetrator - only that we make sure he is found guilty first.



Very well put.

I am unable to understand how anyone can be 'absolutely furious' at the suggestion of the need for due process. I am also staggered that anyone could see such a suggestion as automatically indicative of some sort of wooly-minded liberal who must be 'hand-wringing' or work for 'Social Services'.

I am as keen as anyone that the strongest possible measures are taken against anyone found to have assaulted match officials.

I personally witnessed an incident at a Step Five match around this time last year where a referee was punched to the ground by a player who proceeded to further threaten the referee's safety as he was dragged away by his team-mates. I remain amazed that the the match was not abandoned, and that within a few minutes, as the referee discussed matters with his linesmen, players were coming over and saying "Come on ref, everyone wants to get on with the game". I never found out what happened to the player despite following the online media in the locality concerned, but the afternoon left me considerably disillusioned, and it was three months until I started watching football regularly again.


HibeeJibee
Reserve Team Star

Nov 26, 2008, 5:15 PM

Posts: 896
Location: South-East Scotland
Team(s): Berwick Rangers, Hibernian, Scotland

Post #34 of 91 (3233 views)
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Re: [John Mills] Ref assaulted. [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately

 
A similar incident occurred recently in the East of Scotland League, where a player (unbelievably, himself a trainee referee) punched the referee because he thought he was going to be sent off. The referee suffered a burst lip, swelling to the side of his face, and an injury to his teeth. The fixture was abandoned.

The SFA have banned him from all football for 2 years - although this was before the court had found him guilty, and he still has not received a sentence.

http://news.scotsman.com/edinburgh/Footballer-punched-referee-in-the.4526808.jp
http://news.scotsman.com/edinburgh/Footballer-fearing-red-card-punched.4531784.jp
http://news.scotsman.com/edinburgh/Footballer-who-punched-ref-gets.4579589.jp
http://thescotsman.scotsman.com/football/Twoyear-ban-for-punching-referee.4602283.jp

Sadly, respect for referees seems to be diminishing at all levels, across the UK - and this occasionally manifests itself in open assaults or attacks on officials.


TonyD
Reserve Team Regular

Nov 26, 2008, 9:17 PM

Posts: 669
Location: Purley
Team(s): Sutton United, Crystal Palace

Post #35 of 91 (3165 views)
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Re: [HibeeJibee] Ref assaulted. [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately

2 years!!!! Are they having a laugh? Mad


UKPunk
Man City Transfer Target!

Nov 27, 2008, 12:52 AM

Posts: 11786
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Post #36 of 91 (3115 views)
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Re: [Dovecote] Ref assaulted. [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately


In Reply To

In Reply To

In Reply To
My apologies for rising to the bait last night, but I was absolutely furious with the "he's not been found guilty yet" message. Sorry for lowering the tone.


I missed this original exchange and at the risk of reopening a heated debate I just want to say I absolutely 100% agree with the comments of UKpunk and Richard Rundle.

Furthermore I would have been and still am "absolutely furious" at the attitude of Dovecote. I give him credit for apologising at presumably the first possible opportunity but he still seems to have partly missed the point. Innocent until proven guilty is the foundation stone of our legal system and all our freedoms. For me this is absolute no matter how clearly someone is guilty because to undermine this is the thin end of the wedge. Noone suggested any less punishment for the perpetrator - only that we make sure he is found guilty first.



Good grief, another one!

In this case it's quite simple:

He. Admitted. His. Guilt.

Ergo he's guilty.

And no matter how much hand-wringing you do, that's the fact. I'm sure you wouldn't be quite so defensive of his so-called rights if this vicious assault had happened to you or to someone close to you.

Are you telling me that his club is wrong to suspend him, because he hasn't been "found guilty" yet?

P.S. my apology was for using a swear word that has since been edited out by TK.

The fact that Dovecote apologised should be enough to keep people off his case. I am as angry as anybody at the treatment that the referee at the centre of this controversy endured.

Unfortunately, even in the eventuality that the authoritites find the perpetrator guilty, they still won't let me attack his 'nads with a 'violet wand' whilst making him listen to the latest Cliff Richard Christmas album.

Apparently the Geneva convention allows the former but decrees that listening to Cliff Richard violates all known conventions on human rights.



1-0-1-0-4-25-40-65-181-289=606

Last game: Mon 20/8/18
4. Basford United 1 Hednesford Town 2


Roman
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Nov 27, 2008, 1:00 AM

Posts: 1037
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Post #37 of 91 (3111 views)
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Re: [Dovecote] Ref assaulted. [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately

I find it hard to believe that some people are so concerned about the 'rights' of a guilty man.

There's too much of this mamby pamby 'PC Brigade' crap in this country. People should be more concerned with supporting the victim instead of pandering to thugs.

He's clearly guilty, so quit with the "wait til it's proven" comments because they aren't appropriate in this instance. It's hardly a 'one word against another' case with no witnesses.


DaveU
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Nov 27, 2008, 9:31 AM

Posts: 1464
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Post #38 of 91 (3076 views)
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Re: [Roman] Ref assaulted. [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately

Because by adopting that attitude a lot of innocent people would be clogging up the prison system.



There are 10 types of people in this world. Those who understand binary and those who don't.


susandy034
Youth Team Sub

Nov 27, 2008, 11:13 AM

Posts: 123
Location: Leeds
Team(s): Bishop's Stortford

Post #39 of 91 (3052 views)
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Re: [DaveU] Ref assaulted. [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately

I strongly object to being told I care about the rights of a "guilty" man. Funny that all the insults come from people on one sie of the argument.

Having said that - this a football talk board and I think this discussion has run its course. Anyone who still wishes to insult me for standing up for the rights of the innocent and supporting the punishment of the guilty only can send me a private message.


smallthorne
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Nov 27, 2008, 9:03 PM

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Post #40 of 91 (2960 views)
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Re: [Roman] Ref assaulted. [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately


In Reply To
I find it hard to believe that some people are so concerned about the 'rights' of a guilty man.

There's too much of this mamby pamby 'PC Brigade' crap in this country. People should be more concerned with supporting the victim instead of pandering to thugs.

He's clearly guilty, so quit with the "wait til it's proven" comments because they aren't appropriate in this instance. It's hardly a 'one word against another' case with no witnesses.


Roman might well remember a referee being put in hospital at Hanley Town in a match v Leek CSOB. The person found guilty, the manager of Hanley Town, went to prison, came out and resumed his football career and the FA did nothing about it.
The referee quickly disappeared from the game.


dave
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Nov 27, 2008, 11:42 PM

Posts: 2352
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Post #41 of 91 (2907 views)
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Re: [smallthorne] Ref assaulted. [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately

I'm all in favour of giving a prison sentance to the accused if he is found guilty (which surely he will be,) but all anyone else has pointed out is his right to a fair trial. Nothing to do with the 'PC Brigade' in this country, the right to a fair trial has always existed. (Well OK it hasn't always existed, but it does now.) I actually think he will plead guilty anyway, is the case going to go to court.


UKPunk
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Nov 27, 2008, 11:59 PM

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Post #42 of 91 (2903 views)
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Re: [dave] Ref assaulted. [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately


In Reply To
I'm all in favour of giving a prison sentance to the accused if he is found guilty (which surely he will be,) but all anyone else has pointed out is his right to a fair trial. Nothing to do with the 'PC Brigade' in this country, the right to a fair trial has always existed. (Well OK it hasn't always existed, but it does now.) I actually think he will plead guilty anyway, is the case going to go to court.

Exactly! Based on the number of witnesses present I too expect him to be found guilty and in that eventuality I believe he should be banged up for far longer than he actually will be, if he is given a custodial senetence at all. Nevertheless, he is still entitled to a fair trial.



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UKPunk
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Nov 28, 2008, 12:20 AM

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Post #43 of 91 (2898 views)
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Re: [smallthorne] Ref assaulted. [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately


In Reply To

In Reply To
I find it hard to believe that some people are so concerned about the 'rights' of a guilty man.

There's too much of this mamby pamby 'PC Brigade' crap in this country. People should be more concerned with supporting the victim instead of pandering to thugs.

He's clearly guilty, so quit with the "wait til it's proven" comments because they aren't appropriate in this instance. It's hardly a 'one word against another' case with no witnesses.


Roman might well remember a referee being put in hospital at Hanley Town in a match v Leek CSOB. The person found guilty, the manager of Hanley Town, went to prison, came out and resumed his football career and the FA did nothing about it.
The referee quickly disappeared from the game.

In my opinion the guilty party at Hanley Town should not have been allowed back in the game. Clearly the FA at some level, whether it be county or otherwise, must assume responsibility for the fact that he wasn't banned for life. But regardless of the obviousness or otherwise of the guilt of the player in the present discussion, it is still imperative that he has a fair trial and that he has the opportunity to explain his side of the story.

This isn't about 'concern for the rights of a guilty man.' This is about the rights of every individual in the UK, regardless of whether they're a saint or a scumbag. The fault here isn't with the fact that the accused gets a fair trial. The fault is with a sentencing system that is, in my opinion, far to lenient on those who commit violent offences.

Some may find this harsh, but I would like to see these sort of offences punished with a ten year jail sentence. If the jails are overcrowded, tough. Don't commit the crime and you won't have to sleep 8 to a cell. How's that for 'PC brigade crap?'



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Last game: Mon 20/8/18
4. Basford United 1 Hednesford Town 2


Roman
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Nov 28, 2008, 12:45 AM

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Post #44 of 91 (2894 views)
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Re: [UKPunk] Ref assaulted. [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately

A fair trial goes without saying (in this country at least), my objections in this thread arise from the fact that fair trials are even mentioned at all.

A ref gets clobbered, and people are thinking "ooh, I do hope he gets proved guilty before he gets banned."

Having a fair trial is a bloody given, so why even mention it? I'm stunned.


Smallthorne - I remember the incident but wasn't aware of the outcome - a sorry affair!


dave
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Nov 28, 2008, 12:50 AM

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Post #45 of 91 (2892 views)
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Re: [Roman] Ref assaulted. [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately


In Reply To


Having a fair trial is a bloody given, so why even mention it? I'm stunned.



Because it hasn't always been that way. Even now its easy for it not to happen, I wonder if people at Guantanamo Bay (yes I know a different subject) think they are getting a fair trial. I agree in this case it seems clear cut though.


Dovecote
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Nov 28, 2008, 7:57 AM

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Post #46 of 91 (2870 views)
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Re: [dave] Ref assaulted. [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately


In Reply To
I agree in this case it seems clear cut though.



Which part of "he admitted his guilt" do people on here not understand???!

I'm sat here, literally shaking my head at people's pomposity.


Richard Rundle
Man City Transfer Target!

Nov 28, 2008, 8:08 AM

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Post #47 of 91 (2864 views)
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Re: [Dovecote] Ref assaulted. [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately


In Reply To

In Reply To
I agree in this case it seems clear cut though.



Which part of "he admitted his guilt" do people on here not understand???!

I'm sat here, literally shaking my head at people's pomposity.


And what part of following fair process do you not understand? Even if the person in question has "admitted his guilt", in this country we have legal systems in place for a reason.

When the proper conviction is made, then the guilty party should be punished with the full force of the law. Earlier in this thread you accused me of working with Social Services, and you have frequently accused anyone who doesn't agree with you as being "PC". Now it's "pomposity". If you had read my comments on the thread about Luke McCormick, you will see I am actually on the side of heavy punishments for serious offences.

Perhaps you are too closely involved with this particular case? Are you related to or a personal acquaitance of the referee in question as you seem to "Know. What. Happened." even though you declined to confirm that you were at the ground on the day of the incident.

--
Richard


Dovecote
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Nov 28, 2008, 9:03 AM

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Post #48 of 91 (2857 views)
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Re: [Richard Rundle] Ref assaulted. [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately

I have never used to the term "PC".

I was not at the game in question (and never intimated that I was).

I do know Andy Parker.

I do not represent his views.


It's clear that I'm wasting my time with this. You said that we shouldn't assume that Joe Preston's guilty, I said that Joe Preston admitted his guilt. It is 100% safe to say that he'll get banned by the FA and that he'll get punished by the courts.

My thanks go to Roman for demonstrating that I'm not the only one who can see through the fog.

Over and out.


DaveU
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Nov 28, 2008, 9:21 AM

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Post #49 of 91 (2853 views)
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Re: [Dovecote] Ref assaulted. [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately

However you try and wrap it up, we still have a legal system in this country based on the premise that a person is innocent until proven guilty, even if they have admitted guilt, so why are you arguing against a fair trial. Even the likes of Harold Shipman, Peter Sutcliffe and the Wests had fair trials, and people would have been outraged if they hadn't. So if even serial killers are allowed the due process of the law, why are you so outraged when people call for the same treatment of what is likely to be GBH at the worst.



There are 10 types of people in this world. Those who understand binary and those who don't.


Roman
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Nov 28, 2008, 10:12 AM

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Post #50 of 91 (2837 views)
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Re: [DaveU] Ref assaulted. [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately


In Reply To
However you try and wrap it up, we still have a legal system in this country based on the premise that a person is innocent until proven guilty, even if they have admitted guilt, so why are you arguing against a fair trial. Even the likes of Harold Shipman, Peter Sutcliffe and the Wests had fair trials, and people would have been outraged if they hadn't. So if even serial killers are allowed the due process of the law, why are you so outraged when people call for the same treatment of what is likely to be GBH at the worst.


Nobody has argued against a fair trial.

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