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Another completely blank sheet.....

 

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Mad Bill
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May 4, 2011, 5:19 PM

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Another completely blank sheet..... Can't Post or Reply Privately

It's accepted that one of the contributory factors to the slow southward movement of the Step 2 boundary is the imbalance in the allocation of Step 5 leagues.
How would you reorganise Step 5? Amalgamations in the south east? A third promotion place for NWCL/NCEL runners-up (by play-off?)? MFA footprint is too large? Can anything ever be done with the NL?
Ideas please.


Fanatic
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May 4, 2011, 6:32 PM

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Re: [Mad Bill] Another completely blank sheet..... [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately

I think the answer is more step 5 leagues in the north (so that there is a roughly equal split along the Severn/Wash boundary rather than the current split, which is roughly 9.5 in the south and 4.5 in the north) rather than fewer in the south - the aim should be to reduce travelling.

Perhaps:

Split the NWCL into Cheshire and Lancashire again, split the NCEL into Yorkshire and non-Yorkshire, and allow the EMCL to run a step 5 division in the East Midlands?

The obvious problem is where to get all the extra clubs, but as all of the leagues except the Midland Alliance have second divisions, they could just split them geographically and run only a step 5 division (and not a step 6) a la Kent and Essex. Of course, this would mean promoting almost half the teams on the northern side...


ladderman
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May 4, 2011, 6:35 PM

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Re: [Mad Bill] Another completely blank sheet..... [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately

There's probably an argument for splitting the NWCL, NCEL and MFA back into their original leagues, but the upheaval would be massive. So:
Increase relegation from Step 4 to 18 sides (three from each division), and ringfence six of those promotion places for the NL, NWCL, NCEL and MFA using play-offs between second placed sides where necessary. If there's still not six clubs available to be promoted, the reprieve(s) would go to a side from the NPL.
The remaining 12 places would go to the ten other Step 5 league. Every league gets one promotion spot, with play-offs for the best second placed teams where their champion has already been promoted.


blackdouglas
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May 4, 2011, 7:20 PM

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Re: [Mad Bill] Another completely blank sheet..... [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately

I posted this in another topic I'll just provide the link to save from replicating the whole post.



Northwood, Threave Rovers, Arsenal, Rangers (the real ones, NOT qpr),Watford, Rochdale, queen of the south and a few others.


PaulC
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May 4, 2011, 9:56 PM

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Re: [Mad Bill] Another completely blank sheet..... [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately

1 Northern League (Northumberland, Tyne & Wear, Durham, N Cumbria)
2 Lancashire Combination (Lancashire, S Cumbria, North Manchester, North Merseyside)
3 Cheshire County League (South Manchester, South Merseyside, Cheshire, North Derbyshire, N Staffs)
4 Yorkshire League (Yorkshire, North Lincs)
5 East Midlands League (S Derbys, Leicestershire, Nottinghamshire, S Lincolnshire, Northants)
6 Midland Alliance (S Staffs, W Midlands, Shropshire, N Worcs, N Warwickshire)
7 Eastern Counties (Cambridgeshire, Norfolk, Suffolk)
8 South Midlands (Beds, E Bucks, Herts, N London)
9 South East (Essex, East London, Kent)
10 South (W Sussex, E Sussex, Surrey, S London)
11 Hellenic (W Bucks, Berks, Oxon, W London)
12 Wessex (Wiltshire, Dorset, Hants)
13 Western (Herefordshire, S Worcs, S Warwicks, Gloucestershire, Bristol/Avon)
14 South Western (Somerset, Devon, Cornwall)


(This post was edited by PaulC on May 4, 2011, 10:01 PM)


leohoenig
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May 4, 2011, 10:06 PM

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Re: [PaulC] Another completely blank sheet..... [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately

You do not have to change the number of leagues to increase the number of promotion places.
Simply offer a second promotion place to each ot the Northern Leagues!



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PaulC
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May 4, 2011, 10:16 PM

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Re: [leohoenig] Another completely blank sheet..... [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately

A blank sheet allows the opportunity of sorting the south, which is a mess.


Moorsider
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May 5, 2011, 1:04 AM

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Re: [PaulC] Another completely blank sheet..... [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately


In Reply To
1 Northern League (Northumberland, Tyne & Wear, Durham, N Cumbria)
2 Lancashire Combination (Lancashire, S Cumbria, North Manchester, North Merseyside)
3 Cheshire County League (South Manchester, South Merseyside, Cheshire, North Derbyshire, N Staffs)
4 Yorkshire League (Yorkshire, North Lincs)
5 East Midlands League (S Derbys, Leicestershire, Nottinghamshire, S Lincolnshire, Northants)
6 Midland Alliance (S Staffs, W Midlands, Shropshire, N Worcs, N Warwickshire)
7 Eastern Counties (Cambridgeshire, Norfolk, Suffolk)
8 South Midlands (Beds, E Bucks, Herts, N London)
9 South East (Essex, East London, Kent)
10 South (W Sussex, E Sussex, Surrey, S London)
11 Hellenic (W Bucks, Berks, Oxon, W London)
12 Wessex (Wiltshire, Dorset, Hants)
13 Western (Herefordshire, S Worcs, S Warwicks, Gloucestershire, Bristol/Avon)
14 South Western (Somerset, Devon, Cornwall)


I suspect there would be strong resistance by clubs in North Yorks if they were forced to play in a Yorkshire League, particularly if it also includes Lincolnshire. Clubs like Northallerton, Stokesley, Thornaby, Marske Utd, Guisborough and those with ambitions of Northern League such as New Marske, Redcar Athletic and Kirkbymoorside would certainly not be happy at having to travel all the way to Lincolnshire as transport connections to Tyneside and Northumberland from that area are much better than those across the Humber.


PaulC
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May 5, 2011, 7:58 AM

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Re: [Moorsider] Another completely blank sheet..... [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately

Oh well, split North Yorkshire between NL and YL then.


acmold
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May 5, 2011, 9:53 AM

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Re: [PaulC] Another completely blank sheet..... [In reply to] Can't Post or

I would split the NWC and NCE making four leagues, leave the Northern League as it is but with the spliting of NWC and NCE it would offer better options to those clubs in Cumbria and North Yorkshire..

I would make the five leagues in the south east take on larger areas - Essex covers all of Essex and NE London, Kent takes on some of the CoCo area (SE London) in turn the CoCo takes on the Reading area and NE Hants, the Sussex gets upto the M25, the SML takes over all of Bucks - taking clubs from the Hellenic and UCL.

The Wessex would take on all of Dorset, the Hellenic becomes a Cotswolds and Malverns League plus Wiltshire, UCL gains Leicestershire and ECL would lose Essex but gain south Lincs. This gives more scope for the clubs in the south west, more scope for clubs in Lincolnshire and makes the footprint of the Midlands Alliance smaller, more or less the west Midlands.


pitch 63
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May 5, 2011, 12:51 PM

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Re: [acmold] Another completely blank sheet..... [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately

It will never happen - too many vested interests, particularly amongst the individual leagues and county FA's officers and councillors. Personally I am in favour of forming a Division made up solely of clubs from Cornwall and Northumria, and another Division with just clubs from Kent and Cumbria, plus a division from all the counties in between; this third division would be called the Midland Division and may or may not include clubs from Wales, the Channel Islands, the Isle of Man and Lundy.


AdamKing
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May 11, 2011, 11:40 AM

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Re: [pitch 63] Another completely blank sheet..... [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately

This will probably be unpopular with some, but I would merge the Kent Premier and Sussex Leagues together.



Your Talents Are The Wings Your Dreams Will Use To Fly


buncranaboy
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May 11, 2011, 12:52 PM

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Re: [AdamKing] Another completely blank sheet..... [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately


In Reply To
This will probably be unpopular with some, but I would merge the Kent Premier and Sussex Leagues together.



Really ? - Pagham to Deal for a league game involving a 270 mile round trip and the best part of 5 hours (on a good day) on the road.


blackdouglas
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May 11, 2011, 1:17 PM

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Re: [buncranaboy] Another completely blank sheet..... [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately


In Reply To

In Reply To
This will probably be unpopular with some, but I would merge the Kent Premier and Sussex Leagues together.


Really ? - Pagham to Deal for a league game involving a 270 mile round trip and the best part of 5 hours (on a good day) on the road.

Once a season each, and doesn't this already happen in the North and Midlands anyway? Just evening things out.



Northwood, Threave Rovers, Arsenal, Rangers (the real ones, NOT qpr),Watford, Rochdale, queen of the south and a few others.


buncranaboy
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May 11, 2011, 1:22 PM

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Re: [blackdouglas] Another completely blank sheet..... [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately


In Reply To

In Reply To

In Reply To
This will probably be unpopular with some, but I would merge the Kent Premier and Sussex Leagues together.


Really ? - Pagham to Deal for a league game involving a 270 mile round trip and the best part of 5 hours (on a good day) on the road.

Once a season each, and doesn't this already happen in the North and Midlands anyway? Just evening things out.



At Step 5 or equivalent ? Expanding (doubling in this case) league boundaries is hardly progress toward greater regionalisation. In my view, more counties should be following the Kent and Sussex models.


AdamKing
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May 11, 2011, 1:43 PM

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Re: [buncranaboy] Another completely blank sheet..... [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately

If they did that, wouldn't it make promotion from Step 5 that much more difficult for teams, as there'd be more leagues?

Besides, I read on Wikipedia that the FA wanted the Kent and Essex leagues to consider merging a few years ago. It would be easier to merge with Sussex than with Essex if they had to merge.



Your Talents Are The Wings Your Dreams Will Use To Fly


buncranaboy
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May 11, 2011, 1:49 PM

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Re: [AdamKing] Another completely blank sheet..... [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately


In Reply To
If they did that, wouldn't it make promotion from Step 5 that much more difficult for teams, as there'd be more leagues?

Besides, I read on Wikipedia that the FA wanted the Kent and Essex leagues to consider merging a few years ago. It would be easier to merge with Sussex than with Essex if they had to merge.



And so it should be, in my view. It's having multiple promotions of teams who are not equipped on or off the field for Step 4 that's causing a lot of the problems. More leagues, and play-offs to provide a more elite group of Step 4 entrants.

That should stir a few............


AdamKing
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May 11, 2011, 1:58 PM

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Re: [buncranaboy] Another completely blank sheet..... [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately

Fair enough, but if you have say four teams who finish top of their respective leagues at Step 5 who have all got the right facilities to play in Step 4 and there's only two vacant slots for them in the league above...

... which two do you promote?

I can't see the other teams being too happy that they weren't promoted.



Your Talents Are The Wings Your Dreams Will Use To Fly


buncranaboy
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May 11, 2011, 1:59 PM

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Re: [AdamKing] Another completely blank sheet..... [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately


In Reply To
Fair enough, but if you have say four teams who finish top of their respective leagues at Step 5 who have all got the right facilities to play in Step 4 and there's only two vacant slots for them in the league above...

... which two do you promote?

I can't see the other teams being too happy that they weren't promoted.



An end of season play-off. That's what happens abroad.


ictoan
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May 11, 2011, 2:01 PM

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Re: [AdamKing] Another completely blank sheet..... [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately

With the prospect of using the existing motorway network wouldn't an amalgamation of the Kent and CoCo Leagues be more realistic.



There 'Ant no place like Sussex, until you goes above, 'Cause Sussex will be Sussex and Sussex wunt be druv.

The North begins at Gatwick.


Sarumio
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May 11, 2011, 2:04 PM

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Re: [buncranaboy] Another completely blank sheet..... [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately


In Reply To

In Reply To
If they did that, wouldn't it make promotion from Step 5 that much more difficult for teams, as there'd be more leagues?

Besides, I read on Wikipedia that the FA wanted the Kent and Essex leagues to consider merging a few years ago. It would be easier to merge with Sussex than with Essex if they had to merge.



And so it should be, in my view. It's having multiple promotions of teams who are not equipped on or off the field for Step 4 that's causing a lot of the problems. More leagues, and play-offs to provide a more elite group of Step 4 entrants.

That should stir a few............


I completely disagree there - most of the clubs that have struggled and folded of late have been the more established Step 3 and 4 teams - not the newcomers stepping up from Step 5.

Bromsgrove, Ilkeston, Farnborough, Nuneaton, Chester, Halifax, Windsor & Eton, Leyton, King's Lynn, Farlsey the list goes on.

Of the Step 5 newcomers from the past 5 years or so only Newcastle Blue Star and Almondsbury Town have noticably imploded after going up!!


blackdouglas
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May 11, 2011, 2:25 PM

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Re: [buncranaboy] Another completely blank sheet..... [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately

And that is partly where the imbalance in Step 5 comes from. In the South East Step 5 is based on County Leagues. Essex, Kent, Sussex, even the Combined Counties is primarily just a Surrey Super league, like the Wessex is in Hampshire. The only SE league that remotely looks like a multi-county league is the Spartan South Midland covering NW London, Herts, Bucks & S. Beds. Whereas in the rest of the country, County football has long since been consigned to Step 7, 8 or 9 and superceded by Regional Leagues, Western covering Devon, Dorset, Somerset, Wilts; Midland Alliance, Hereford, Salop, to Leicestershire & S.Notts; NW Counties covering from Stafford to Barrow; the Northern from Whitehaven to Guisborough. etc.

Either the South East has to man-up and rationalise its Step 5 leagues like the rest of the country, or the rest of the country has to realise their leagues are going to have to be carved up and Step 5 be a lot more local than it currently is. The areas covered by the NPL feeders alone wouldn't make bad NPL Premier Feeders outright.



Northwood, Threave Rovers, Arsenal, Rangers (the real ones, NOT qpr),Watford, Rochdale, queen of the south and a few others.


PaulC
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May 11, 2011, 4:30 PM

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Re: [buncranaboy] Another completely blank sheet..... [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately


In Reply To

In Reply To
This will probably be unpopular with some, but I would merge the Kent Premier and Sussex Leagues together.



Really ? - Pagham to Deal for a league game involving a 270 mile round trip and the best part of 5 hours (on a good day) on the road.



Step 6 Holker OB-Eccleshall 285 miles round trip


KnowYourMarket
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May 11, 2011, 4:46 PM

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Re: [PaulC] Another completely blank sheet..... [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately

Step 7, Kirkbymoorside to Cleator Moor, 274 miles returnCrazy



Last ground visited(update requested by Spud): Wellington . New grounds 18/19: 38

(This post was edited by KnowYourMarket on May 11, 2011, 4:46 PM)


PaulC
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May 11, 2011, 4:55 PM

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Step 7, Kirkbymoorside to Cleator Moor, 274 miles returnCrazy


Southern softies. They don't know they're born.

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