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Lowland League 2016/17

 

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prorege
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May 25, 2016, 12:02 PM

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Lowland League 2016/17 Can't Post or Reply Privately

Latest word is that St Cuthbert Wanderers have decided against promotion to the Lowland League. Their players do not want to play in the Lowland League and the club have gone with that.

Threave Rovers have not asked to be reprieved from relegation, as their players want to play in the South of Scotland League.

BSC Glasgow will need to get a home ground sorted out or they could lose their license.

Three applicants are Hawick Royal Albert, Civil Service Strollers and Edusport. Lowland League Management committee can choose to admit any, all or none of these, as they see fit, up to a mebership of 16.

So, thinking about it, from the East of Scotland League the strongest teams (LTHV, Leith) are not likely to be aligible for promotion in the near future. South of Scotland League Champions are not interested in promotion and nobody else from that league very likely to be interested.

If Hawick and Strollers are allowed into the Lowland League, and Craigroyston and Spartans Reserves quit the EOSL, then it would be seriously weakened in numbers if not quality.

Highland League remains a closed-shop, although Banks o' Dee are keen to join, but certainly not to go any higher.

Pyramid? My posterior. Why? Because hardly anyone in Scottish football actually wants it!


dottirofhod
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May 25, 2016, 12:23 PM

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Re: [prorege] Lowland League 2016/17 [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately


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Pyramid? My posterior. Why? Because hardly anyone in Scottish football actually wants it!

========================================================
Steady on , bans are floating about this Forum.
Yep its not needed up there , most are happy enough without a pyramid.




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blackdouglas
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May 25, 2016, 12:52 PM

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Post #3 of 69 (9249 views)
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Re: [prorege] Lowland League 2016/17 [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately


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Latest word is that St Cuthbert Wanderers have decided against promotion to the Lowland League. Their players do not want to play in the Lowland League and the club have gone with that.

Threave Rovers have not asked to be reprieved from relegation, as their players want to play in the South of Scotland League.

BSC Glasgow will need to get a home ground sorted out or they could lose their license.


Three applicants are Hawick Royal Albert, Civil Service Strollers and Edusport. Lowland League Management committee can choose to admit any, all or none of these, as they see fit, up to a membership of 16.

So, thinking about it, from the East of Scotland League the strongest teams (LTHV, Leith) are not likely to be eligible for promotion in the near future. South of Scotland League Champions are not interested in promotion and nobody else from that league very likely to be interested.

If Hawick and Strollers are allowed into the Lowland League, and Craigroyston and Spartans Reserves quit the EOSL, then it would be seriously weakened in numbers if not quality.

Highland League remains a closed-shop, although Banks o' Dee are keen to join, but certainly not to go any higher.

Pyramid? My posterior. Why? Because hardly anyone in Scottish football actually wants it!


Take out Dalbeattie Star and all you have left, effectively, is a Supreme Division of the East of Scotland League!!



Northwood, Threave Rovers, Arsenal, Rangers (the real ones, NOT qpr),Watford, Rochdale, queen of the south and a few others.


LLD
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May 25, 2016, 2:25 PM

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Re: [prorege] Lowland League 2016/17 [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately

Selkirk Victoria have confirmed via Twitter that they have applied to the East of Scotland League.



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crankie2
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May 25, 2016, 2:28 PM

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Re: [blackdouglas] Lowland League 2016/17 [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately

Big problem here is that Scotland doesn`t have a `legitimate` football system ... we have SFA, representing just 1.3% of clubs in its voting membership ... a `supposed` national league of clubs who don`t want to let anyone in, because clubs that do get in quickly thrash them .. even with the `dodgy pyramid` amounting to less than 2% of all clubs. IT ISN`T THAT CLUBS DON`T WANT A LEGITIMATE PYRAMID ... it is the clear FACT that we don`t have one .. and the Parliament with responsibility over this disaster area, is itself a complete washout. ... up in arms about a few women (who have exclusive clubs of their own) excluded from a premier golf club ... but `delighted` with 98% of football clubs excluded from the national system. This is a SICK country ... destined to be third-rate at almost everything, barring the odd individuals who take it upon themselves to rise above it.

Portugal is by far the best small country in Europe .. with 122 clubs in its top three levels, compared to just 32 in rotten SFA-land ... earning itself 5th ranking in UEFA, the recent u-17 title, and a place at this summer`s Olympics. The way forward is pretty clear for anyone with decent intentions or ideas ... but if that way is consistently blocked by the disingenuous, you can`t blame folk for switching off. LET`S PUT THE BLAME WHERE IT RIGHTLY BELONGS.


prorege
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May 25, 2016, 2:32 PM

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Re: [crankie2] Lowland League 2016/17 [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately

I blame Rangers.


prorege
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May 25, 2016, 2:33 PM

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Re: [LLD] Lowland League 2016/17 [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately


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Selkirk Victoria have confirmed via Twitter that they have applied to the East of Scotland League.

I have also heard rumours about West Barns Star, Tweedmouth Rangers and Whitehill Welfare Reserves.




buckielugger
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May 25, 2016, 7:11 PM

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Re: [crankie2] Lowland League 2016/17 [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately

Not sure where the Scottish Parliament come into this blame-wise...and of course there is the dubious FIFA rule that political powers are not allowed to hold sway over FAs....(did Blatter bring that it so he could claim world status superior in his own mind to any actual world leader??)
But I do agree that Scottish football does have a peculiar set up to say the least.
SFA / SJFA / SAFA etc ....very disjointed. ..
At least the first steps have been taken to start joining the different parts of Scottish football together. ...a small number of clubs can now bid for promotion into the Scottish League...and some Junior clubs have been making it into the Scottish Cup (with much success too) and one team from the SAFA ranks is also now included.
But it is all a long way from what it could and should be.
A single SFA is essential for starters and a comprehensive pyramid for all clubs established. ..the SFA Cup can clearly be expanded much further even with the same number of rounds as now giving many more opportunities for Junior clubs and amateur clubs...wouldn't it be great to have some of the amateur Highland and Island clubs in it (a whole chunk of Scotland has simply never ever been included in the Scottish Cup).


cope1
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May 25, 2016, 9:02 PM

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Re: [buckielugger] Lowland League 2016/17 [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately


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Not sure where the Scottish Parliament come into this blame-wise...and of course there is the dubious FIFA rule that political powers are not allowed to hold sway over FAs....(did Blatter bring that it so he could claim world status superior in his own mind to any actual world leader??)
But I do agree that Scottish football does have a peculiar set up to say the least.
SFA / SJFA / SAFA etc ....very disjointed. ..
At least the first steps have been taken to start joining the different parts of Scottish football together. ...a small number of clubs can now bid for promotion into the Scottish League...and some Junior clubs have been making it into the Scottish Cup (with much success too) and one team from the SAFA ranks is also now included.
But it is all a long way from what it could and should be.
A single SFA is essential for starters and a comprehensive pyramid for all clubs established. ..the SFA Cup can clearly be expanded much further even with the same number of rounds as now giving many more opportunities for Junior clubs and amateur clubs...wouldn't it be great to have some of the amateur Highland and Island clubs in it (a whole chunk of Scotland has simply never ever been included in the Scottish Cup).

I agree. It's easy to look at it now and criticise but Edinburgh City have just gone up which could not have happened without the pyramid, so there's one club that wanted in who now have it. There is certainly a long way to go to include more of the nation's clubs but small steps are better than just sitting down and giving up.


PaulC
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May 25, 2016, 9:49 PM

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Re: [cope1] Lowland League 2016/17 [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately


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I agree. It's easy to look at it now and criticise but Edinburgh City have just gone up which could not have happened without the pyramid, so there's one club that wanted in who now have it.


To what purpose though? Is there room for a third Edinburgh club in the SPFL - history suggests no. Does the SPFL need a club which will struggle to attract a three-figure crowd? I doubt it.

I've just returned from watching Hurlford United v Auchinleck Talbot played in front of around 1,100 fans. Why would either club want to give this up for the chance to play Albion Rovers, Annan or Arbroath?

What's wrong with wanting to continue playing local rivals rather than travel up and down the country to play in front of a couple of hundred fans?


(This post was edited by PaulC on May 25, 2016, 9:51 PM)


cope1
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May 26, 2016, 11:32 AM

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In Reply To
I agree. It's easy to look at it now and criticise but Edinburgh City have just gone up which could not have happened without the pyramid, so there's one club that wanted in who now have it.


To what purpose though? Is there room for a third Edinburgh club in the SPFL - history suggests no. Does the SPFL need a club which will struggle to attract a three-figure crowd? I doubt it.

I've just returned from watching Hurlford United v Auchinleck Talbot played in front of around 1,100 fans. Why would either club want to give this up for the chance to play Albion Rovers, Annan or Arbroath?

What's wrong with wanting to continue playing local rivals rather than travel up and down the country to play in front of a couple of hundred fans?

There's nothing wrong with clubs wanting to continue playing local rivals and I haven't suggested Hurlford or Auchinleck Talbot give that up. The point of the pyramid system is to allow those clubs who want to make the step up the chance to do so.

Scottish football has more than enough options for clubs who don't want to reach the SPFL. What it has lacked is a pathway for clubs who do. They have been limited to applying when a space opens up, however that happens, which can be once every 20 years.


PaulC
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May 26, 2016, 12:15 PM

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In Reply To

In Reply To
I agree. It's easy to look at it now and criticise but Edinburgh City have just gone up which could not have happened without the pyramid, so there's one club that wanted in who now have it.


To what purpose though? Is there room for a third Edinburgh club in the SPFL - history suggests no. Does the SPFL need a club which will struggle to attract a three-figure crowd? I doubt it.

I've just returned from watching Hurlford United v Auchinleck Talbot played in front of around 1,100 fans. Why would either club want to give this up for the chance to play Albion Rovers, Annan or Arbroath?

What's wrong with wanting to continue playing local rivals rather than travel up and down the country to play in front of a couple of hundred fans?

There's nothing wrong with clubs wanting to continue playing local rivals and I haven't suggested Hurlford or Auchinleck Talbot give that up. The point of the pyramid system is to allow those clubs who want to make the step up the chance to do so.

Scottish football has more than enough options for clubs who don't want to reach the SPFL. What it has lacked is a pathway for clubs who do. They have been limited to applying when a space opens up, however that happens, which can be once every 20 years.


That's fair enough, providing a pyramid is not imposed on all clubs, as in England. The danger, as we see countless times in England, is that teams are "over-promoted" and either collapse into a pale shadow of the former club, or simply go out of business. I think the Peter Principle can be applied to football teams just as much as to employees.

In England there are/were many urban areas with populations of over 100,000 without league clubs but with the numbers to support a league club. I can see the value of the pyramid there - but you just need to look at some of the teams in in the National League and you know they won't be there for long - they'll eventually run out of external funding.

East Kilbride, Scotland's 9th largest urban area, with a population of 75,000, is obviously due league representation and could probably sustain an SPFL team but there are gey few others. At best they'll be in there with Elgin and Annan amongst the also rans in lower league mediocrity trailing up and down the country for no obvious reason.

Let the Highland Leaguers and the diddy Lowland League clubs fight over the illusion of promotion through the pyramid if that's what they want; but for the rest it's not worth it.


(This post was edited by PaulC on May 26, 2016, 12:22 PM)


cope1
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May 26, 2016, 1:11 PM

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Re: [PaulC] Lowland League 2016/17 [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately

Are not a large proportion of clubs anywhere "also rans in lower league mediocrity"? I don't think you have to win the league to have succeeded. If a club's aim is SPFL League 2 then fair enough.

We've had this discussion before, I know, but I wouldn't expect the juniors to take any interest unless the system was regionalised up to the 3rd tier. That would remove 2-3 years of traipsing at lower levels. I imagine if any of the juniors felt confident they could compete in the Championship they'd be prepared to travel up and down the country. I fully understand they don't want to do it lower down.


prorege
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May 27, 2016, 8:23 AM

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There's nothing wrong with clubs wanting to continue playing local rivals and I haven't suggested Hurlford or Auchinleck Talbot give that up. The point of the pyramid system is to allow those clubs who want to make the step up the chance to do so.


The point is that the vast majority of clubs do not want to "step up". The main reason for that is that the players do not want it. Look at the current Threave / St Cuthbert situation. Think about why Hawick Royal Albert aren't even the best team in Hawick. Playing football at non-league level, certainly in Scotland, is a social thing. Getting one over the guys you went to school with, or who come from the other side of town, is far more important than progressing up a pyramid. There's much more kudos in winning a local league against your rivals than winning one against people you don't know and have no connection with.

Recent changes to the structure of football in Scotland - the Lowland League and the Junior Super and Premier Leagues - have already had a detrimental effect on clubs. Those that don't want to participate are protecting themselves.

Conversation at the Oakley v Dundonald match the other night, involving committee men from several clubs, was all about trying to return to a Fife League. The Juniors have a "working" pyramid system, albeit with a glass ceiling, but it's not that popular. Burntisland, Lochore, Lochgelly, Dundonald and Glenrothes are within ten miles of each other, yet could all be playing in different leagues next season. The view of the people that matter, clubs and players, is that this is stupid. The views of pyramidistas, armed with spreadsheets / reprieves / sideways transfers and goodness knows what should be confined to Fantasy Football.

If you really must open up the SPFL to promotion / relegation, then let those winners from each of the six old junior regions, plus the Highland and Lowland Leagues who want promotion to play off to decide an opponent for the SPFLs 42nd side. Quite possibly none of the eight would be interested.

Alternatively just expand the SPFL to 44 by letting Spartans and East Kilbride in. Nobody else is that bothered.




Veteran
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May 27, 2016, 9:45 AM

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Absolutely spot on, except you might include Formartine as hoping to step up.

One thing you have missed with the pyramidistas is the petty little men with their clipboards and excessive ground grading requirements and silly restrictions such as no grass banking. That sort of thing is beginning to creep in in Scotland with club licensing - so beware !


cope1
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May 27, 2016, 2:14 PM

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The point is that the vast majority of clubs do not want to "step up". The main reason for that is that the players do not want it. Look at the current Threave / St Cuthbert situation. Think about why Hawick Royal Albert aren't even the best team in Hawick. Playing football at non-league level, certainly in Scotland, is a social thing. Getting one over the guys you went to school with, or who come from the other side of town, is far more important than progressing up a pyramid. There's much more kudos in winning a local league against your rivals than winning one against people you don't know and have no connection with.

Recent changes to the structure of football in Scotland - the Lowland League and the Junior Super and Premier Leagues - have already had a detrimental effect on clubs. Those that don't want to participate are protecting themselves.

Conversation at the Oakley v Dundonald match the other night, involving committee men from several clubs, was all about trying to return to a Fife League. The Juniors have a "working" pyramid system, albeit with a glass ceiling, but it's not that popular. Burntisland, Lochore, Lochgelly, Dundonald and Glenrothes are within ten miles of each other, yet could all be playing in different leagues next season. The view of the people that matter, clubs and players, is that this is stupid. The views of pyramidistas, armed with spreadsheets / reprieves / sideways transfers and goodness knows what should be confined to Fantasy Football.

If you really must open up the SPFL to promotion / relegation, then let those winners from each of the six old junior regions, plus the Highland and Lowland Leagues who want promotion to play off to decide an opponent for the SPFLs 42nd side. Quite possibly none of the eight would be interested.

Alternatively just expand the SPFL to 44 by letting Spartans and East Kilbride in. Nobody else is that bothered.

But that's not the point. Nobody has to step up if they don't want to, but they have no right to stand in the way of those who do. As I said before, Scottish football is awash with options for clubs who want to remain in local/regional football. What it has lacked is a way for those who want to move towards the SPFL to do so.

The Lowland League was setup to facilitate clubs like Edinburgh City moving up the system and, ultimately, into the SPFL. Whether they fall flat or not remains to be seen but is not the point anyway. The point is that a club that wants to join the main system has a way of doing it which doesn't involve sitting on its hands for 20 years waiting for another club to fold.

As for opening up the SPFL to promotion/relegation, that's already happened. I don't see why the juniors would be involved given they are so furiously against it.


prorege
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May 27, 2016, 2:21 PM

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The point is that the vast majority of clubs do not want to "step up". The main reason for that is that the players do not want it. Look at the current Threave / St Cuthbert situation. Think about why Hawick Royal Albert aren't even the best team in Hawick. Playing football at non-league level, certainly in Scotland, is a social thing. Getting one over the guys you went to school with, or who come from the other side of town, is far more important than progressing up a pyramid. There's much more kudos in winning a local league against your rivals than winning one against people you don't know and have no connection with.

Recent changes to the structure of football in Scotland - the Lowland League and the Junior Super and Premier Leagues - have already had a detrimental effect on clubs. Those that don't want to participate are protecting themselves.

Conversation at the Oakley v Dundonald match the other night, involving committee men from several clubs, was all about trying to return to a Fife League. The Juniors have a "working" pyramid system, albeit with a glass ceiling, but it's not that popular. Burntisland, Lochore, Lochgelly, Dundonald and Glenrothes are within ten miles of each other, yet could all be playing in different leagues next season. The view of the people that matter, clubs and players, is that this is stupid. The views of pyramidistas, armed with spreadsheets / reprieves / sideways transfers and goodness knows what should be confined to Fantasy Football.

If you really must open up the SPFL to promotion / relegation, then let those winners from each of the six old junior regions, plus the Highland and Lowland Leagues who want promotion to play off to decide an opponent for the SPFLs 42nd side. Quite possibly none of the eight would be interested.

Alternatively just expand the SPFL to 44 by letting Spartans and East Kilbride in. Nobody else is that bothered.

But that's not the point. Nobody has to step up if they don't want to, but they have no right to stand in the way of those who do. As I said before, Scottish football is awash with options for clubs who want to remain in local/regional football. What it has lacked is a way for those who want to move towards the SPFL to do so.

Actually it is mandatory top take part in the play offs. Brora didn't want to take part but had to.

Scotland is no longer awash with leagues for clubs that want to play local football. The destruction of the 6 Juinior Regions and the emasculation of the East Seniors has seen to that.

The Lowland League was setup to facilitate clubs like Edinburgh City moving up the system and, ultimately, into the SPFL. Whether they fall flat or not remains to be seen but is not the point anyway. The point is that a club that wants to join the main system has a way of doing it which doesn't involve sitting on its hands for 20 years waiting for another club to fold.

Correction, the Lowland League was set up a) to get Spartans promoyed and b) get Regan his bonus. Edinburgh City officials themselves were not that bothered about going up. They realise it may well end in tears.

As for opening up the SPFL to promotion/relegation, that's already happened. I don't see why the juniors would be involved given they are so furiously against it.

The Juniors should have the right to qualify for and then refuse to play in the play offs. They are, after all, overall the highest standard of football outside of the SPFL.



Tykeoldboy
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May 27, 2016, 3:09 PM

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Re: [prorege] Lowland League 2016/17 [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately

If Scotland created a full pyramid system, including Juniors, then a system where a team has to specify before a certain date that they don't want to be considered for promotion (or want promotion), should they are in that position, then this would open up the system to all but give teams the option to choose whether they want it or not.

If there was an instance where both HL and LL champions didn't want promotion, although the LL was setup for this purpose, then no play off with the bottom SPFL club needs to take place. There isn't TV coverage so no obligation to a TV company to fulfill.

Promotion at each level could be done the same way, so only teams that won a particular league and wanted to go up would be promoted. Surely this would satisfy all parties.



The feeling of utter devastation when you pick up your mug and realise you already finished your tea.


cope1
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May 27, 2016, 3:10 PM

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Re: [prorege] Lowland League 2016/17 [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately

The first point is fair enough although if the Highland League en masse voted to be part of it presumably it's a case that they were in the minority? Happy to be corrected if wrong.

Not much I can say about the 2nd one as it's clearly just a dig at certain parties.

As for the third, why should the juniors "have the right to qualify for and then refuse to play in the play offs"? If they want to be part of the system then that's great but if not, why should other parties be forced to accommodate just so they have tell them where to stick it?

I get the impression a lot of this is as much about egos as what's best for Scottish football. Most of the people I've heard from regard the juniors as better than the non-League seniors. So perhaps the biggest problem is that outsiders may perceive the non-League seniors as better because they're inside the 'system' and that's the real issue.


prorege
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May 27, 2016, 3:24 PM

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In Reply To

Not much I can say about the 2nd one as it's clearly just a dig at certain parties.


Not a dig at anyone. Craig Graham was the main mover for opening up access to the SPFL, primarily to benefit his own club. They were always the most worthy of the aspirants.

Regan was offered a substantial bonus to effect this change by the SFA. Presumably it was part of some sort of development plan in the wake of McLeish. His views were shaped by the SFA member clubs from the senior non leagues rather than having an overview of the whole situation. He probably thought Junior football was for kids.


mick
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May 27, 2016, 5:56 PM

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As for the third, why should the juniors "have the right to qualify for and then refuse to play in the play offs"? If they want to be part of the system then that's great but if not, why should other parties be forced to accommodate just so they have tell them where to stick it?.


The point is that a very small number of East/West Junior clubs (maybe just 1) might like a crack at the play offs but, at present, the only way they could achieve this would be to drop to the vastly inferior 'senior' leagues. If a North Junior side were interested then, tough, as the Highland League is a closed shop. Winners of the Junior leagues should have access to the play-offs, but should also have the ability to decline the place (as should the likes of Brora if they win the Highland League).


cope1
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May 27, 2016, 7:06 PM

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Re: [mick] Lowland League 2016/17 [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately

Thanks for the insight gents. I'm fascinated by the juniors, in particular. Difficult to find much reading - let alone discussion - anywhere else.


Tykeoldboy
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Post #23 of 69 (7196 views)
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Re: [mick] Lowland League 2016/17 [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately


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As for the third, why should the juniors "have the right to qualify for and then refuse to play in the play offs"? If they want to be part of the system then that's great but if not, why should other parties be forced to accommodate just so they have tell them where to stick it?.


The point is that a very small number of East/West Junior clubs (maybe just 1) might like a crack at the play offs but, at present, the only way they could achieve this would be to drop to the vastly inferior 'senior' leagues. If a North Junior side were interested then, tough, as the Highland League is a closed shop. Winners of the Junior leagues should have access to the play-offs, but should also have the ability to decline the place (as should the likes of Brora if they win the Highland League).


Since it seems that joining the LL is by application at the moment, and there are 2 spaces available, then there is an opportunity for any progressive junior club.



The feeling of utter devastation when you pick up your mug and realise you already finished your tea.


prorege
Man City Transfer Target!


May 27, 2016, 9:28 PM

Posts: 6991
Location: Kingdom of Fife
Team(s): Fife teams

Post #24 of 69 (7165 views)
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Re: [Tykeoldboy] Lowland League 2016/17 [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately

No there isn't.

See previous threads. Getting licensed now depends on committing to the pyramid, i.e. Being willing to join the East of Scotland or South of Scotland Leagues.

The seniors closed the door on the Juniors after Lithgae got a licence. Pure self preservation of their SFA handouts, they didn't want the cake cut into thinner slices. They were also keeching themselves as the standard of the Juniors is such that they could eclipse many of the senior clubs.

These are no place for progressive clubs.


LeedsPhil
First Team Star

Jun 7, 2016, 1:44 PM

Posts: 2985
Location: exiled in Aberdeenshire
Team(s): Leeds + groundhopping

Post #25 of 69 (6543 views)
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Re: [prorege] Lowland League 2016/17 [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately


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BSC Glasgow will need to get a home ground sorted out or they could lose their license.

Three applicants are Hawick Royal Albert, Civil Service Strollers and Edusport. Lowland League Management committee can choose to admit any, all or none of these, as they see fit, up to a mebership of 16.




As posted separately by prorege : BSC 'Glasgow' will play at newly recarpeted Alloa.

Supposed 1:30 release on the Lowland League's website, but it has gone into meltdown. But it's reported here http://www.bordertelegraph.com/..._the_Lowland_League/ that the two of the three who have been admitted are Civil Service Strollers and Hawick Royal Albert. As expected - thank goodness not Edusport.



(This post was edited by LeedsPhil on Jun 7, 2016, 2:09 PM)

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