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Best Non Pyramid League in London?

 

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HughesVideo
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Feb 22, 2017, 5:23 PM

Posts: 459
Location: Edmonton
Team(s): Edmonton Rovers (Sunday League) ...and whoever I film for !

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HughesVideo - I see that your Edmonton Rovers have made a great start in the Barnet Sunday League. Top of Div 2 and unbeaten all season. Well done to your team. What is behind the improved performance? Squad overhaul? How does the standard of the BSL compare to the WSL?

Also, I see that Continental from the WSL also moved to the BSL. Is the Waltham Forest Reserves team in the BSL the actual reserve team of Waltham Forest FC (Saturday team) who play in the Ryman League?

I also see that serial WSL champs Upshire have taken to the Essex Sunday Corinthian League like ducks to water. Top of the Premier league, unbeaten all season with a 100% record.


Yes, a squad overhaul for Edmonton Rovers. There are only 8 players remaining from our Waltham Sunday League days last season and we have managed to find a large number of excellent new players from various different sources.
Obviously the bottom Division of the Barnet Sunday League is nowhere near as strong as Division One of the Waltham League...which we had been stuck in for 10 years, but I would say what has made the biggest difference is actually the rules in the BSL where five substitutes can be used roll-on, roll-off and also, teams are not forced into providing a Club Linesman. In the Waltham League you would get fined for no Club Linesman and only three subs were allowed to be used with no roll-on, roll-off. The BSL's rules encourages all squad members to turn up and watch whereas the Waltham League's rules would almost 'force' players to stay at home for fear of having to run the line and/or not getting a game.
We only had a bare eleven every match in the WSL with nobody on the line apart from myself filming the match. Now, we have five subs every match and about 15 people on the line, including an Assistant Manager and a Goalkeeping Coach. It improves the team spirit so much.

Other ex-Waltham League clubs are also doing well in their new Leagues, including Churchbury and Northaw in our division, and as you say, Continental in the BSL Premier Division.
Upshire likewise in the Essex Sunday Corinthian League, and also several clubs in the East Herts Corinthian Sunday League are doing better than they did in the Waltham League, although some of them have admittedly gone down to lower divisions like us to start afresh.

That is indeed Waltham Forest's Saturday Reserve Team who are playing in Division One of the Barnet Sunday League. We could well be facing them soon in one of the two League Cup competitions we are still in, so that will be interesting. I believe their First Team are in the Essex Senior League nowadays though, not the Ryman.
I wonder what their policy is for that Reserve Team and why they play on Sundays ? Ilford also do it by having a Reserve Team in the Essex Sunday Combination.

As for Sunday League football in general in the North/East London area, the KOPA League is still setting the standard with both New Salamis and Omonia reaching the FA National Sunday Cup Quarter-Finals, while those two are playing each other in the London FA Sunday Challenge Cup Quarter-Finals for a place in the Semis alongside another KOPA team, Olympia, who are already there. I would think Yeni Bogazici Dogan Spor from the Turkish Community Football Federation are likely to be their only challengers.

The Waltham Sunday League are trying to re-form for next season with two divisions of 10 teams in each, but I am having none of it.
The Barnet Sunday League is the future for us. There is great potential for that League to flourish, much as the Essex Sunday Corinthian League is.
What is interesting about the KOPA League though is the sheer amount of teams and individual players who are leaving to join the Barnet Sunday League because of the KOPA's 'no more than two non-Cypriots on the pitch at any one time' rule. I cannot ever see the likes of New Salamis or Omonia joining another League, so I wonder what the KOPA's plans are to get more teams into their League ? I think they only have 8 in the top division and 7 in their second division now ?



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stevegraze
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Feb 24, 2017, 5:29 PM

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Re: [HughesVideo] Sunday League Changes [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately

Great news. Glad to hear that your team is enjoying life in the BSL. The WSL will have a hard time convincing teams to join a resurrected league.

I need to resurrect the London cup thread and keep those active as they are our only resource for historic results.

I noticed that the KOPA League is diminishing in size. While the top sides like New Salamis and Omonia will always be quality, I do wonder if this will adversely affect the overall quality of their league? New Salamis have won the KOPA League so many times in a row that it is becoming almost a monopoly (worse than what Bayern do in Germany or PSG in France). This season they are top of the league, have won 10 of their 11 games already, are undefeated, have scored nearly 50 goals and conceded only 5. http://www.kopaleague.com/...-1/league-table.html
They win most of their games 6-0 and only get tested in the LFA Challenge Cup and FA Sunday Cup.

Maybe the future for the KOPA League is to play in inter-league cups like the one that the ILFL and Hackney and Leyton League play in, or they could start a new one against the TCFF and Maccabi Southern League?


HughesVideo
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Feb 24, 2017, 6:31 PM

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Team(s): Edmonton Rovers (Sunday League) ...and whoever I film for !

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Maybe the future for the KOPA League is to play in inter-league cups like the one that the ILFL and Hackney and Leyton League play in, or they could start a new one against the TCFF and Maccabi Southern League?


Some teams from the Barnet Sunday League entered the Inter-League Cup this season, which I think is a good move. They were all from the Premier Division, which had been reduced to only 8 teams because of others dropping out.

Regarding the KOPA League, I read recently that one team in their lower division have been deliberately playing 4 or 5 non-Cypriots in their matches with the League's knowledge and therefore accepting the fine and loss of points for each match. They are saying that is the only way they can keep their club alive because they do not have enough Cypriot players to field a team.

Whether they will join the Barnet Sunday League next season because of that I don't know. They might just decide to fold up.

I may be wrong, but I think what has happened over the last 5 years or so is that a lot of the Greek Cypriot community in Enfield & Haringey (where the KOPA League is based) have made their money and moved away into more affluent areas, and in a lot of cases gone back to live in Cyprus, thereby making it more difficult for KOPA League teams to find enough players of Cypriot origin for their squads.

The largest community in Enfield & Haringey now is from Turkey, hence the Turkish Community Football Federation getting stronger in recent years...as we have seen in the London FA Sunday Cup competitions.

Other communities in Enfield & Haringey start up teams that go in either the Barnet Sunday League or the Edmonton Sunday League though, which is good to see.
I cannot see the KOPA League ever thinking of folding with their remaining clubs doing likewise, but you do wonder what must keep New Salamis motivated when there are hardly any new teams joining their League.



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Forest Gump
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Feb 26, 2017, 11:38 AM

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That is indeed Waltham Forest's Saturday Reserve Team who are playing in Division One of the Barnet Sunday League. We could well be facing them soon in one of the two League Cup competitions we are still in, so that will be interesting. I believe their First Team are in the Essex Senior League nowadays though, not the Ryman.
I wonder what their policy is for that Reserve Team and why they play on Sundays ? Ilford also do it by having a Reserve Team in the Essex Sunday Combination.?


We already had our Veterans in the Vets division of the Barnet Sunday League, so it made things a lot easier from an administration perspective. It's also a lot less travelling than the Essex Senior League reserve division, and cheaper too.


stevegraze
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Jan 31, 2018, 5:41 PM

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Re: [HughesVideo] Sunday League Changes [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately

Resurrecting this thread now that we are down to the semi-finals of the LFA Sunday Challenge Cup and it is the usual suspects:

FC Cortez (Metropolitan Sunday League) -v- Mile End (Hackney and Leyton League) - Feb 11

New Salamis (KOPA League) -v- FC Bickley (Orpington and Bromley District League) - Feb 18

All 4 semi-finalists are the current reigning champions of their league.

My money is on a Mile End v New Salamis final.


(This post was edited by stevegraze on Jan 31, 2018, 5:45 PM)


London Harrier
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Apr 16, 2018, 5:40 PM

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Re: [stevegraze] Sunday League Changes [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately

Slightly off topic, but broadly speaking, has the standard of Sunday League football in the top divisions (London based or otherwise) improved over the last few decades? Or have the best Sunday League sides always fielded semi-professional and amateur players from the Saturday game?

A cursory glance at the finalists for the FA Sunday Cup over the last few year reveals most of the players are regulars at Step 5 and above. Is this a recent phenomenon?


paulh66
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Apr 16, 2018, 6:06 PM

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Re: [London Harrier] Sunday League Changes [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately

The Merseyside teams who dominated the Sunday Cup in the 80s had a sprinkling of players from steps 1 and 2 in their squads. Names such as Kenny McKenna, Harry Wiggins, Chris Camden, Steve Joel and Steve Skeete immediately spring to mind, as well as a few South Liverpool players when we were NPL (step 2 at the time). Players of that calibre wouldn't be allowed to play Sunday football these days.


Sale Holmfield
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Apr 16, 2018, 7:39 PM

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Team(s): Altrincham, Conwy Borough

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Re: [paulh66] Sunday League Changes [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately

Some good players there! Were they playing openly? I am prettty sure the first two weren't (or, if they were, it was never made public) during their time at Altrincham.
At a later date, I can remember Altrincham preventing Peter Band from playing for East Levenshulme in the FA Sunday Cup in 2002. The original agreement was that he would play for both clubs, but this was reneged upo, when we having a torrid time at Step 2 (I always said that was the worst Alty team I had ever seen ...until last season).

I also know of an established and then current Football League player who played as a ringer in the Wythenshawe Sunday League in the nineties, but don't think I should say who it was, in case somebody sues Leo, but I agree with Paul, it's not a new thing to have players at the top level of the non-League game playing Sunday football.


(This post was edited by Sale Holmfield on Apr 16, 2018, 7:41 PM)


HughesVideo
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Apr 16, 2018, 9:14 PM

Posts: 459
Location: Edmonton
Team(s): Edmonton Rovers (Sunday League) ...and whoever I film for !

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Slightly off topic, but broadly speaking, has the standard of Sunday League football in the top divisions (London based or otherwise) improved over the last few decades? Or have the best Sunday League sides always fielded semi-professional and amateur players from the Saturday game?

A cursory glance at the finalists for the FA Sunday Cup over the last few year reveals most of the players are regulars at Step 5 and above. Is this a recent phenomenon?


As far as the London area is concerned, from my 41 years experience in Sunday League football, I would say the standard has naturally improved as regards fitness and the speed of the game, as it has at all levels.
There have always been non-contract players from Step 5 and above who still play at that level on Saturdays, but what you get now is more ex-Step 5 and above players playing on Sundays because it is harder to commit to the Saturday/Tuesday/Thursday routine in getting time off work...and the roads being so crowded.



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paulh66
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Apr 16, 2018, 10:05 PM

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Some good players there! Were they playing openly? I am prettty sure the first two weren't (or, if they were, it was never made public) during their time at Altrincham.


Yes, it was all open and I'm pretty sure I saw all those names playing in Sunday Cup Finals. Re McKenna and Wiggins, this would have been around the mid 1980s when they were at Telford while sweeping the board with the Avenue on Sundays. I think it was towards the end of the 80s that clubs began making it more difficult for their better players to play Sunday League.


Ronsdog
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Apr 16, 2018, 10:15 PM

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Re: [paulh66] Sunday League Changes [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately

 

Ricky Hayles immediately springs to mind from the modern era.

Hornchurch and he were in dispute as regards his Sunday morning outings.


stevegraze
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Sep 8, 2018, 8:38 PM

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Re: [Ronsdog] Sunday League Changes [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately

Just some updates notes regarding Sunday/Saturday football and New Salamis. After winning the KOPA League 7 times in 8 years, winning the London FA Challenge Cup multiple times, and reaching two successive FA Sunday Cup Finals, New Salamis have moved to Saturday football. They now play in the Herts County Senior League (step 7). I daresay that level is probably too low for many of their players, and they are already top of the table and undefeated after 4 games. Most of their players have played at steps 3-5.

I can understand the move. There was nothing really left for them to do in Sunday football. They had proved themselves to be the best Sunday team in their league, city, and country - with all their league and county/national cup wins. Good luck to them in Saturday NLS football.

http://thecoldend.blogspot.com/...ove-to-saturday.html


(This post was edited by stevegraze on Sep 8, 2018, 8:40 PM)


HughesVideo
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Sep 10, 2018, 9:19 AM

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Location: Edmonton
Team(s): Edmonton Rovers (Sunday League) ...and whoever I film for !

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Re: [stevegraze] Sunday League Changes [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately

I may be wrong, but I believe New Salamis move to Saturday football was driven by the KOPA League trying to level the playing field for the other KOPA teams by not allowing anybody to play who gets paid expenses for playing, whether that be for a Saturday team or (allegedly) for New Salamis themselves.

The problem with bringing in that rule is that it appears to have forced a couple of other clubs to leave/fold as well, leaving the KOPA League with only 14 teams in total...too many for one division and too less to have two divisions of 7 teams in each, which is what they have gone for.
They seem to think that they can attract new teams from the Cypriot community to join them next season who will progress from Youth football, but most seem to join the Barnet Sunday League nowadays.
The only way they are going to survive is to allow the KOPA League to become an open League where anybody can play irrespective of having a Cypriot background or not, but of course that defeats the object of the League in the first place.



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HughesVideo
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Oct 13, 2018, 10:05 PM

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Re: [HughesVideo] Oldest Sunday Teams In London [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately

Last Sunday, my team Edmonton Rovers (founded in 1976) played Italia Wasteels (founded in 1968) in the First Round of the London FA Sunday Junior Cup...highlights of which can be seen here, complete with commentary which gives a bit more info: https://youtu.be/iUfTLIgMuMQ

It made me wonder just how many other London FA-affiliated Sunday League teams have been in existence for longer than my team and our opponents, and looking through this season's London FA handbook, there appears to be 14 others as follows...

Baldon Sports...London & Kent Suburban League
Continental...Barnet Sunday League
Cosmos United...Southern Sunday League
Earlsmead...Edmonton Sunday League
FC Elmstead...Orpington & Bromley Sunday League
Kenningwell United...Orpington & Bromley Sunday League
Kingfisher...Edmonton Sunday League
Oakwood...Maccabi Sunday League
Omonia...KOPA League
Redbridge Jewish Care...Maccabi Sunday League
Temple Fortune...Maccabi Sunday League
Travellers United...Edmonton Sunday League
Tristars & Deloitte...London Accountants League
Vista...Orpington & Bromley Sunday League

There may well be others, but those will more than likely be the Sunday sides of Saturday teams. Those listed above are purely Sunday teams...or certainly started off that way.

It is one hell of a job to keep a Sunday team running for over 40 years, believe me ! Most only last 3 or 4 years.



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stevegraze
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Nov 18, 2018, 6:35 PM

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Re: [HughesVideo] Sunday League Changes [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately

After winning the KOPA League 7 times in 8 years, winning the London FA Challenge Cup 6 times, and reaching two successive FA Sunday Cup Finals, there was not much left for New Salamis in Sunday football. Saturday football seemed the next logical challenge. They are already top of the Herts County League (step 7) with 9 wins in 10 games, and are unbeaten in all competitions (goal difference +34). They are also through to round 2 of the London Senior Trophy after a 5-2 demolition of Fire United Christian FC (who play at Step 6 Division One South of the Eastern Counties League and are supposed to be "above" New Salamis' league in the pyramid!).

I cannot remember the last time New Salamis lost a game in 90 minutes. Does anyone know?



stevegraze
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Nov 18, 2018, 7:03 PM

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Re: [paulh66] Sunday League Changes [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately

I added the results and fixtures of this season's LFA Sunday Challenge Cup here: https://www.nonleaguematters.co.uk/forum/gforum.cgi?post=904544;sb=post_latest_reply;so=ASC;forum_view=forum_view_collapsed;;page=unread#unread

With New Salamis gone from Sunday football, we will have a new winner of the Challenge Cup this season (I do not think any of the clubs have ever won it before). The favourites seem to be Dumlupinar of the Turkish Community Football Federation, Kenningwell United of the OBDSFL, Lambeth Allstars (3 time consecutive champions of the Morden & District League and the current Surrey FA Sunday Premier Cup holders), and Mile End of the Hackney and Leyton League. As well as being champions of their league, Mile End won the standout fixture of round 2 - after knocking Anorthosis (the top team of the always strong KOPA League) on penalties following a 3-3 draw AET.


HughesVideo
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Nov 18, 2018, 8:27 PM

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I added the results and fixtures of this season's LFA Sunday Challenge Cup here: https://www.nonleaguematters.co.uk/forum/gforum.cgi?post=904544;sb=post_latest_reply;so=ASC;forum_view=forum_view_collapsed;;page=unread#unread

With New Salamis gone from Sunday football, we will have a new winner of the Challenge Cup this season (I do not think any of the clubs have ever won it before). The favourites seem to be Dumlupinar of the Turkish Community Football Federation, Kenningwell United of the OBDSFL, Lambeth Allstars (3 time consecutive champions of the Morden & District League and the current Surrey FA Sunday Premier Cup holders), and Mile End of the Hackney and Leyton League. As well as being champions of their league, Mile End won the standout fixture of round 2 - after knocking Anorthosis (the top team of the always strong KOPA League) on penalties following a 3-3 draw AET.


Don't rule out Highgate Albion from the Barnet Sunday League. They have strengthened all three of their sides considerably this season.



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stevegraze
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Nov 20, 2018, 2:18 PM

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Re: [HughesVideo] Sunday League Changes [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately

Highgate Albion are worth a shout. They usually do well in league and Middlesex County Cups. However the LFA competitions seem to be something of an Achilles heel for them. They seem to stumble in LFA competitions (despite often having the advantage of being entered in the LFA Junior Cup).


stevegraze
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Nov 26, 2018, 5:38 PM

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Re: [HughesVideo] Oldest Sunday Teams In London [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately

Hard to keep up with Sunday teams history as so many of them change name or merge, hence blurring their lineage. I know that the following teams have been around for over 35 years:

New Salamis (ex KOPA League, now Herts County League)
Maynell (Hackney and Leyton League)


(This post was edited by stevegraze on Nov 26, 2018, 5:40 PM)


thecoldend
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Dec 12, 2018, 1:33 PM

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Re: [stevegraze] Oldest Sunday Teams In London [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately

I been looking at the line ups for some of the teams in the FA Sunday Cup and see that Nyron Nosworthy is listed in the Lambeth All Stars team a number of times.

This has to the be the former Gillingham and Sunderland (to name a few of his clubs) as well as Jamacia international as he was born in Brixton.

Can anyone confirm this?


stevegraze
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Dec 17, 2018, 2:00 AM

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Re: [thecoldend] Oldest Sunday Teams In London [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately

It is indeed that Nyron Nosworthy: https://twitter.com/.../1064149855591940097How/where did you see the FA Sunday Cup team line-ups?

Not surprising. Lambeth All Stars' youth teams have links the academies of pro clubs which sometimes their youth team players progress to. To be fair both Kenningwell United, New Salamis, and Lambeth All Stars have fielded full international players before. In recent seasons, Kenningwell fielded players who played international football for Grenada and and others who have played pro in Finland and the USA. Kyri Portou of New Salamis was a Cypriot U21 international, and Ahmet Rifat also played for England at youth level.
As HughesVideo pointed out above, a few seasons ago Beresford United had Montserrat International Nyron Dyer playing for them.



(This post was edited by stevegraze on Dec 17, 2018, 2:19 AM)


thecoldend
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Dec 18, 2018, 12:11 PM

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Re: [stevegraze] Oldest Sunday Teams In London [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately

Thanks for the info mate. I got the line-ups from the FA Full Time for the Lambeth All Stars league here

http://fulltime-league.thefa.com/...amp;teamID=971655506


stevegraze
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Dec 19, 2018, 10:59 PM

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LFA Sunday Challenge Cup [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately

I posted the latest results and QF fixtures for the LFA Sunday Challenge Cup here: https://nonleaguematters.co.uk/...;;page=unread#unread
It is the usual leagues in the QFs: 3 from the OBDSFL, 2 from KOPA, one from TCFF, and another from the usually strong Met League.
Does anyone know why Anorthosis are still in the competition despite losing in the previous round to Mile End? Were Mile End expelled from the competition? The result has been changed to "Home Win - Walkover"...






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