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Brexit negotiations

 

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mip
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Mar 31, 2017, 11:42 AM

Posts: 9850
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Post #301 of 446 (3021 views)
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I don't think UK residents will be allowed free movement after brexit. I'm not sure that anyone is expecting that.


A pity for those young Brits who'd like to expand their horizon.


Isaac
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Mar 31, 2017, 12:53 PM

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Post #302 of 446 (3000 views)
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Many leavers voted to leave on immigration and it now looks like near freedom of movement will be retained as we need EU workers.

Many remainers were not out and out pro EU but thought it was better than leaving. They wanted to have freedom of movement but would like to see reform of EU regulations and laws.

One day after Article 50 it appears immigration is near the bottom of the list and reform and laws are at the top.


I think the point is, if we need immigration, we allow it.if we don't, we don't. In the EU, we're not allowed the luxury to decide. However, for me, that wasn't the main reason why i voted to leave.

Exactly, immigration was the main reason for many, there are just far too many people in this country, certainly in London and the south east.


Isaac
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Mar 31, 2017, 12:56 PM

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Post #303 of 446 (2999 views)
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Is that not the whole point it's going to be very difficult to cherry pick imagination if UK residents want any kind of freedom of movement in Europe.

I went to a Jobs Fair last week 25 organisations looking for workers mostly hotel groups and carer organisations. There is a cronic shortage of staff in those sectors. The majority or people who apply to work at them (and were at the Job Fair) are the over 50's and overseas workers. There was an item on BBC breakfast this week about the hotel industry despite paying the living wage there is almost no take up of positions by UK nationals under 50.

Well if nobody wants these jobs then they'll obviously have to start paying a bit more, that's how it normally works, supply and demand and all that!


paulh66
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Mar 31, 2017, 1:08 PM

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Post #304 of 446 (2989 views)
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Yep, and they'll pass on as much of that extra cost as possible to the punter. That's how it normally works. Be interesting to see what effect that has on the tourist sector, currently one of our biggest industries.


007Dale
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Mar 31, 2017, 1:18 PM

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Post #305 of 446 (2985 views)
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Yep, and they'll pass on as much of that extra cost as possible to the punter. That's how it normally works. Be interesting to see what effect that has on the tourist sector, currently one of our biggest industries.


Currently, tourism is one of the industries benefiting from brexit. The exchange rate collapse means British people can't afford to holiday abroad and it's much cheaper for foreign visitors to come here.


paulh66
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Mar 31, 2017, 1:21 PM

Posts: 19378
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Post #306 of 446 (2982 views)
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My reference was to the future, when the cost increases that Isaac was advocating kick in, rather than the present.


acmold
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Mar 31, 2017, 1:38 PM

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Post #307 of 446 (2973 views)
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     Re: [Isaac] Brexit negotiations [In reply to]   or

You pay the lowest paid more, so the next level demand more and it spirals. Inflation raising so the increase is deminished and the progess starts again. I've worked for two companies where unskilled workers were paid more than professionally qualified staff, both went bust. You can't raised unskilled pay to near the rate of a professional otherwise the professional will say sod it we will do the unpaid job. You do realise in many parts of the country skilled labour and professionals are only on £10 to £15 an hour or are salaried and don't get overtime. And many have their pensions, overtime rates (if applicable) and holidays cut. My recommended rate of pay from my professional body is 3 times what you are actually offered these days.


Tykeoldboy
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Mar 31, 2017, 2:22 PM

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Post #308 of 446 (2959 views)
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Is that not the whole point it's going to be very difficult to cherry pick imagination if UK residents want any kind of freedom of movement in Europe.

I went to a Jobs Fair last week 25 organisations looking for workers mostly hotel groups and carer organisations. There is a cronic shortage of staff in those sectors. The majority or people who apply to work at them (and were at the Job Fair) are the over 50's and overseas workers. There was an item on BBC breakfast this week about the hotel industry despite paying the living wage there is almost no take up of positions by UK nationals under 50.


Many British people under 50 don't see cleaning hotel rooms or working a hotel reception as a career but more of a short term job, whereas the over 50's with fewer commitments see this type of work as a good option for generating a bit of spending money without the need to build a career.



The feeling of utter devastation when you pick up your mug and realise you already finished your tea.


Part-Timer
Chelsea Transfer Target

Mar 31, 2017, 3:58 PM

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Post #309 of 446 (2931 views)
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Is that not the whole point it's going to be very difficult to cherry pick imagination if UK residents want any kind of freedom of movement in Europe.

I went to a Jobs Fair last week 25 organisations looking for workers mostly hotel groups and carer organisations. There is a cronic shortage of staff in those sectors. The majority or people who apply to work at them (and were at the Job Fair) are the over 50's and overseas workers. There was an item on BBC breakfast this week about the hotel industry despite paying the living wage there is almost no take up of positions by UK nationals under 50.


Many British people under 50 don't see cleaning hotel rooms or working a hotel reception as a career but more of a short term job, whereas the over 50's with fewer commitments see this type of work as a good option for generating a bit of spending money without the need to build a career.

Cleaning hotel rooms or working in a hotel reception is not a career; it's a job. People need to look at the bigger picture when taking jobs. Once you're in you have a chance to impress and therefore to create a career but it does require more effort than just turning up, doing as little as you can get away with and taking the money.

For what it it's worth my wife started her working life as a hotel chambermaid having not gained much in the way of qualifications. However, what she lacks in academic ability she more than makes up for by way of common sense, drive and the abiltiy to get on with everybody. By the time she left the hotel industry she was a head of department doing duty manager shifts in a large, quality hotel. As a result, after taking a career break when our children were young, she has a good CV to fall back on which has meant she has never struggled for rewarding, decently paid work since.


Tykeoldboy
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Mar 31, 2017, 5:43 PM

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Post #310 of 446 (2907 views)
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"Cleaning hotel rooms or working in a hotel reception is not a career; it's a job" is what I said. I used that as an example and these types of jobs are usually done by students, older people (over 50's), unqualified and of late, foreign workers. They are usually minimum wage jobs which some people prefer to do.

Since it looks like free movement of labour from the EU into the UK will stay as part of any Brexit deal then these jobs will continue to be filled by the same type of people that fill them at the moment.



The feeling of utter devastation when you pick up your mug and realise you already finished your tea.


007Dale
First Team Star

Mar 31, 2017, 6:17 PM

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Post #311 of 446 (2894 views)
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Since it looks like free movement of labour from the EU into the UK will stay as part of any Brexit deal then these jobs will continue to be filled by the same type of people that fill them at the moment.


I'm not sure it will stay, isn't that what a lot of people wanted to avoid? Theresa May has specifically ruled out being in the single market for that very reason.

Existing people here will be fine. New people will have to apply for work permits like any non-EU national does today.


Tykeoldboy
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Mar 31, 2017, 6:54 PM

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Post #312 of 446 (2880 views)
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It may be the case that free movement of trade is tied in with free movement of labour, Gibraltar has now been thrown into the mix and any restrictions on the free movement of labour will impact both Gibraltarians that work in Spain and Spanish people working in Gibraltar. Spain could even veto the UK's exit from the EU or at least delay it.



The feeling of utter devastation when you pick up your mug and realise you already finished your tea.


Isaac
Man City Transfer Target!

Mar 31, 2017, 6:54 PM

Posts: 9670
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Post #313 of 446 (2880 views)
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You pay the lowest paid more, so the next level demand more and it spirals. Inflation raising so the increase is deminished and the progess starts again. I've worked for two companies where unskilled workers were paid more than professionally qualified staff, both went bust. You can't raised unskilled pay to near the rate of a professional otherwise the professional will say sod it we will do the unpaid job. You do realise in many parts of the country skilled labour and professionals are only on £10 to £15 an hour or are salaried and don't get overtime. And many have their pensions, overtime rates (if applicable) and holidays cut. My recommended rate of pay from my professional body is 3 times what you are actually offered these days.


You pay the going rate, it's a bit like trying to sell a car. You can ask whatever you like but you're only going to get what somebody is willing to pay.

Maybe some companies will have to start accepting a reduction in profits when the endless supply of cheap labour from Eastern Europe is no longer available?


MrTangerineMan
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Mar 31, 2017, 7:19 PM

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Post #314 of 446 (2862 views)
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As I see it, there are two main problems:

1) A number of employers are using EU staff in order to keep their costs and wages down. Look at Hotels for example - many of their staff are not UK born and Under 23, so therefore they do not qualify for the living wage. These employers should be forced to pay the living wage to all staff, or should be stripped of the right of owning any business in the future.

It is not racist/xenophobic to want to give our young people a start in the job market, and if they have to make beds, cook food, serve behind the bar or (God forbid) clean out the toilets then so be it. It is not a job they will be doing forever - even in McDonalds you can progress from serving burgers to becoming the CEO.

2) Young British people need to learn that mundane jobs are a necessity and if they are that precious about doing a 'crap job' and their mates laughing at them that a) they need to grow a spine and b) they aren't very good mates anyway.

A job used to be taken for granted - now it is a privilege and you are very blessed to have one. With industry (and even commerce) automating, people can no longer be picky about the work they do or the contracted hours they work.

It is better to have one foot on the rung of the job ladder than none.


acmold
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Mar 31, 2017, 9:15 PM

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Post #315 of 446 (2820 views)
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Many British people won't do these jobs even if the wages were higher. If they were given them they would probably not be as good, polite, well groomed or able to turn up on time like the EU ccounterparts. They won't apply for them because they consider them to be below them.

The Romanian plumber who fitted my new toilet is an example. I had tried numerous local plumbers all quoted four figure sums or failed to turn up. One said I can't be bothered with the traffic. Another wanted cash up front before even giving a date to do the job.. The Romanian chap arrived when he said he would and did the job in under two hours. He travelled 20 miles to do the job and cleaned up behind him.

I had an external door fitted by a British firm with British workmen. They turn up three hours late with the wrong materials. They could not even put it in straight. It had over 30 faults and they never rectified any off them. Eventually I got a full refund but they failed to turn up to take it out or collect it.

EU workers have work ethic and pride in the job they are doing. Sadly many of our own don't.


007Dale
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Mar 31, 2017, 9:23 PM

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Post #316 of 446 (2815 views)
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Can't argue with that. I Wanted a tile floor replaced and my usual man basically couldn't be bothered. Polish builder did an excellent job,
Really high quality and cheaper.

Mind you, he has since moved in with the next door neighbour after she separated from her husband!


MrTangerineMan
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Mar 31, 2017, 10:35 PM

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Post #317 of 446 (2789 views)
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The final line of your post hits the nail on the head.

Until we get the pride in a job well done back wholesale, it will be an uphill task.

We used to be a nation that took pride in a job well done, and for whatever reason that changed. It's now cool and hip to take the mick out of Britain or even worse decry it as a horrible place. I'm proud to be British and see no shame in saying so, and I also aim to do a good job at work.

Without wishing to go into Jonathan Pie mode, yes we do have to lambast our lazy and over-privileged young people who won't work and yes we do need to teach them the value of work and doing it well but we also have to make it worth their while to work. Why work and pay tax when you can sit on your butt and expect the state to hand you money every other week?

Here's how I would solve it:

* Companies hiring have to pay the living wage to ALL workers
* British youngsters should be told that no job is 'beneath them' and to do the awful mundane jobs. 'A bit of graft is good for the heart' as my Gramps said.
* People coming to the UK can do so IF they have a job to go to.

I would also look at whether we have too many people here, when measured against current and future jobs. If I am a factory owner, why should I take on a human worker who will

* Want a salary
* Will get the Union involved in any dispute
* Want sick/maternity pay
* Want bonuses

When I can invest that money in a machine/robot who is not affected by money, unions, illness, late trains/heavy traffic etc. Surely a robot is more cost-effective than a human?

With less and less jobs and more and more people, we are going to see a glut of unemployment/black market employment in the near future. We need a balance and soon!


jon b
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Mar 31, 2017, 11:09 PM

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Post #318 of 446 (2773 views)
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It may be the case that free movement of trade is tied in with free movement of labour, Gibraltar has now been thrown into the mix and any restrictions on the free movement of labour will impact both Gibraltarians that work in Spain and Spanish people working in Gibraltar. Spain could even veto the UK's exit from the EU or at least delay it.


I can't see the Spanish blocking our exit from the EU, quite the reverse, but they might well block any subsequent trade deal.

They'll do whatever they see as in their best interests, and they'd be blind not to see our estrangement from the rest of europe as an opportunity to use whatever means come to hand to try to get back Gibraltar.

I think we're going to find out what being out on our own actually means.


MrTangerineMan
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Apr 1, 2017, 12:14 AM

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Post #319 of 446 (2752 views)
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Well, we know who our friends REALLY are!


Isaac
Man City Transfer Target!

Apr 1, 2017, 7:49 AM

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Post #320 of 446 (2708 views)
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Many British people won't do these jobs even if the wages were higher. If they were given them they would probably not be as good, polite, well groomed or able to turn up on time like the EU ccounterparts. They won't apply for them because they consider them to be below them.

The Romanian plumber who fitted my new toilet is an example. I had tried numerous local plumbers all quoted four figure sums or failed to turn up. One said I can't be bothered with the traffic. Another wanted cash up front before even giving a date to do the job.. The Romanian chap arrived when he said he would and did the job in under two hours. He travelled 20 miles to do the job and cleaned up behind him.

I had an external door fitted by a British firm with British workmen. They turn up three hours late with the wrong materials. They could not even put it in straight. It had over 30 faults and they never rectified any off them. Eventually I got a full refund but they failed to turn up to take it out or collect it.

EU workers have work ethic and pride in the job they are doing. Sadly many of our own don't.


That's great for you but the Romanian might well be sharing a grotty bedsit with half a dozen others while his British counterpart has a family to support and a mortgage to pay. The bigger picture is that they are driving down wages and living standards. A builder I know has taken early retirement because he just cannot compete with cut price Eastern European because it isn't a level playing field.


paulh66
Qatar World Cup bid member!


Apr 1, 2017, 8:22 AM

Posts: 19378
Location: Surrey
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Post #321 of 446 (2696 views)
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Having admitted defeat on quality and price in our own backyard, on what basis are you confident we can compete on quality and price in the global market? Especially after all the inflation you're advocating kicks in.


jon b
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Apr 1, 2017, 9:31 AM

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Post #322 of 446 (2673 views)
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Given the location of Gibraltar and that it was seized by military force, I don't see any countries other than the UK being greatly bothered about Spain exploiting the opportunity.

Meanwhile, down in the South Atlantic…..


Isaac
Man City Transfer Target!

Apr 1, 2017, 12:21 PM

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Post #323 of 446 (2620 views)
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Having admitted defeat on quality and price in our own backyard, on what basis are you confident we can compete on quality and price in the global market? Especially after all the inflation you're advocating kicks in.


I suggest that you read my post again, I haven't mentioned qualityCrazy!

As for price if your boss says your pay is being cut, because that's how much migrants work for, you'll be quite happy about it will you?


paulh66
Qatar World Cup bid member!


Apr 1, 2017, 1:06 PM

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Post #324 of 446 (2599 views)
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You want to replace better quality, cheaper overseas services with lesser quality more expensive British services. Unless of course, broadly speaking, you believe the overseas plumbers etc don't actually beat white van man on quality.

As for your example, it's never happened and is unlikely to happen but, if it did, I'd currently have free reign to take my skills wherever they're valued. That capability will probably be severely curtailed in future.

So far on this thread, your vision of a future Britain means increased insurance premiums on overseas travel, increased hotel prices on UK travel, an overall less profitable tourism sector and poorer quality more expensive domestic repairs and maintenance. Not looking like a great deal for most of us so far. Do you have anything that'll make us better off?


Richard Rundle
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Apr 1, 2017, 1:14 PM

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Post #325 of 446 (2596 views)
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So far on this thread, your vision of a future Britain means increased insurance premiums on overseas travel, increased hotel prices on UK travel, an overall less profitable tourism sector and poorer quality more expensive domestic repairs and maintenance. Not looking like a great deal for most of us so far. Do you have anything that'll make us better off?


£350 million per week for the NHS!!!!!!

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