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Home: Non-League Football Discussion: Restructuring Discussion:
Step two next season

 



northstandexile
First Team Regular

Sep 28, 2018, 8:05 PM

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Location: Mansfield
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Step two next season Can't Post or Reply Privately

With the bottom four teams in The National step One division from the South, which two 'southern' teams will be pushed into Conference North next season?


markust
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Sep 28, 2018, 9:48 PM

Posts: 286
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With the bottom four teams in The National step One division from the South, which two 'southern' teams will be pushed into Conference North next season?


Barrow and Chesterfield are the only two Northern teams in the bottom half!

This could be fun...


Bantam Cymraeg
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Sep 29, 2018, 7:27 AM

Posts: 4461
Location: Flintshire
Team(s): Bradford City

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Re: [markust] Step two next season [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately

Gloucester City and Oxford City are currently the two most northern teams in the South. They've both spent plenty of time in the North previously, so I can't see it being a problem for them.


Unicorn
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Sep 29, 2018, 11:32 AM

Posts: 3886
Location: Canterbury
Team(s): Arsenal and South Eastern Football

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Re: [Bantam Cymraeg] Step two next season [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately


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Gloucester City and Oxford City are currently the two most northern teams in the South. They've both spent plenty of time in the North previously, so I can't see it being a problem for them.


They had no choice.
That does not mean that it was not a problem for them.


blackdouglas
Chelsea Transfer Target


Sep 29, 2018, 12:26 PM

Posts: 3311
Location: Northwood, Middlesex
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In Reply To
Gloucester City and Oxford City are currently the two most northern teams in the South. They've both spent plenty of time in the North previously, so I can't see it being a problem for them.


They had no choice.
That does not mean that it was not a problem for them.


Gloucester supporters always seem give the impression that they would rather be flying up the M5 to Birmingham and beyond instead of trekking across the Cotswolds to Oxford and down the M40 to London every other week.

Can't comment about Oxford City though.



Northwood, Threave Rovers, Arsenal, Rangers (the real ones, NOT qpr),Watford, Rochdale, queen of the south and a few others.


northstandexile
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Sep 29, 2018, 12:29 PM

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Location: Mansfield
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Re: [blackdouglas] Step two next season [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately

Just wondering who would next be in line if the majority of promoted teams were southern based


Sarumio
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Sep 29, 2018, 2:34 PM

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Post #7 of 25 (21522 views)
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Re: [northstandexile] Step two next season [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately


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Just wondering who would next be in line if the majority of promoted teams were southern based


Haven't looked at a map - but St Albans City spring to mind?

Either them or Hemel Hempstead Town surely.

I am thinking about counties and after Gloucestershire and Oxfordshire, Hertfordshire has to be the next most northern county surely?


hemelhopper
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Sep 29, 2018, 8:57 PM

Posts: 1490
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Team(s): Hemel Hempstead Town FC, Trust Portsmouth FC and The Reds of Cincinnati

Post #8 of 25 (21367 views)
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Re: [Sarumio] Step two next season [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately


In Reply To

In Reply To
Just wondering who would next be in line if the majority of promoted teams were southern based


Haven't looked at a map - but St Albans City spring to mind?

Either them or Hemel Hempstead Town surely.

I am thinking about counties and after Gloucestershire and Oxfordshire, Hertfordshire has to be the next most northern county surely?


.. we're ready and waiting .. Wink .. well a few on the Town terracing have mentioned the possibility .. I'll just have to get up earlier .. Tongue



Grounds = 618, Leagues done = 15 (37 to go); Games (19/20) = 76; New Grounds (19/20) = 62; Goals (19/20) = 337; Ave goals/game = 4.43; Last new ground = Hants FA at Winklebury, Basingstoke; Next = Thurs 17th Oct 2019


genesimmons
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Oct 1, 2018, 12:40 PM

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Re: [hemelhopper] Step two next season [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately

still a long way to go in the season but looking at the current league table it sure got me thinking and having a team like hemel hempstead in the conference north would prove the in-balance between non league football in the north and south. i guess you cold pi the blame on the fa for decisions made years ago but not so much now. they would be simply putting the most northern teams in the north division which is down to who is promoted and relegated.



You wanted the best, you got the best


Richard Rundle
Man City Transfer Target!

Oct 1, 2018, 12:51 PM

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Re: [Sarumio] Step two next season [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately


In Reply To

In Reply To
Just wondering who would next be in line if the majority of promoted teams were southern based


Haven't looked at a map - but St Albans City spring to mind?

Either them or Hemel Hempstead Town surely.

I am thinking about counties and after Gloucestershire and Oxfordshire, Hertfordshire has to be the next most northern county surely?


Chelmsford City are more or less on the same line of latitude as well.


ladderman
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Oct 2, 2018, 6:55 AM

Posts: 7419
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Post #11 of 25 (20276 views)
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Re: [genesimmons] Step two next season [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately


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still a long way to go in the season but looking at the current league table it sure got me thinking and having a team like hemel hempstead in the conference north would prove the in-balance between non league football in the north and south. i guess you cold pi the blame on the fa for decisions made years ago but not so much now. they would be simply putting the most northern teams in the north division which is down to who is promoted and relegated.

Wasn't that in balance proved a while ago? The problem didn't disappear just because Stortford returned south. I can't see hemel or st Albans going north next year, but nothing will be done about the situation if it did happen


Brightside
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Oct 2, 2018, 12:41 PM

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Re: [ladderman] Step two next season [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately

Is part of the problem at Level 6 / Step 2 that there are more Northern teams at Levels 1-5?

Sure there are too few Northern / Midland Step 5 leagues which also affects things.



How 2020/2021 could look like (based on 2018/2019)

Non League Projections - 2020/21 - https://docs.google.com/...fAI/edit?usp=sharing

Step 1 - https://drive.google.com/...1zLX5Ju5&usp=sharing
Step 2 - https://drive.google.com/...REZzvDIU&usp=sharing
Step 3 - https://drive.google.com/...GYGtPp8H&usp=sharing
Step 4 - https://drive.google.com/...DJBN8cC-&usp=sharing
Alternative - https://drive.google.com/...vkdOju1Q&usp=sharing
Step 5 - https://drive.google.com/...I48iX_bL&usp=sharing
Step 6 - https://drive.google.com/...siBvGhTK&usp=sharing or https://drive.google.com/...pNmsB_JW&usp=sharing


Wijit99
Junior Team Star

Oct 2, 2018, 1:40 PM

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Post #13 of 25 (20007 views)
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Re: [Brightside] Step two next season [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately


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Is part of the problem at Level 6 / Step 2 that there are more Northern teams at Levels 1-5?

Sure there are too few Northern / Midland Step 5 leagues which also affects things.



Long post, sorry.



Looking at the clubs currently in level 1-5 it is not true that there are more northern teams.


Splitting the country into North, Midlands and South. Midlands for this argument being roughly around Birmingham and Leicester region. This is the breakdown for each league.
I am sure people will argue with where I have put some teams and of course where the North /South split is.

Premier League
North (7) - Newcastle, Burnley, Man United, Man City, Liverpool, Everton and Huddersfield
Midland (2) - Wolves and Leicester
South (11) - Cardiff, Watford, Tottenham, Arsenal, Chelsea, Fulham, Crystal Palace, West Ham, Bournemouth, Southampton and Brighton

Championship
North (10) - Middlesborough, Preston NE, Blackburn, Wigan, Leeds, Bolton, Hull, Rotheram, Sheffield Wednesday and United
Midlands? (6) - Stoke, Derby, Nottingham, West Brom, Aston Villa and Birmingham
South (8) - Norwich, Ipswich, Swansea, Bristol, Reading, Brentford, Millwall and QPR

League 1
North (9) - Sunderland, Fleetwood, Blackpool, Accrington, Rochdale, Bradford, Barnsley, Doncaster and Scunthorpe.
Midlands (5) - Shrewsbury, Burton, Walsall, Coventry and Peterborough
South (10) - Plymouth, Bristol, Luton, Oxford, Wycombe, Portsmouth, Wimbledon, Southend, Charlton and Gillingham

League 2 - there is a more visible geographic split here, so some clubs which may previously have been midlands have been joined with North or South.
North (12) - Carlisle, Morecombe, Bury, Oldham, Tranmere, Crewe, Macclesfield, Pot Vale, Grismby, Lincoln, Mansfield and Notts County

South (12) - Exeter, Yeovil, Newport, FGR, Cheltenham, Swindon, Northampton, MK Dons, Stevenage, Cambridge, Colchester and Crawley

National Premier
North (9) - Gateshead, Hartlepool, Barrow, Fylde, Harrogate, Halifax, Salford, Chesterfield and Wrexham
Midlands (1) - Solihull Moors
South (14) - Braintree, Boreham, Maidenhead, Aldershot, Exeter, Havant Waterlooville, Ebbsfleet, Maidstone, Dover, Barnet, Sutton, Leyton Orient, Dagenham and Bromley



Totals from this dissection -
North - 47
Midlands - 14
South - 55


Northern teams not helped by step 3 and below having unequal number of league in each region.


Brightside
Junior Team Star

Oct 2, 2018, 3:48 PM

Posts: 96
Location: North Essex
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Post #14 of 25 (19891 views)
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Re: [Wijit99] Step two next season [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately


In Reply To

In Reply To
Is part of the problem at Level 6 / Step 2 that there are more Northern teams at Levels 1-5?

Sure there are too few Northern / Midland Step 5 leagues which also affects things.



Long post, sorry.



Looking at the clubs currently in level 1-5 it is not true that there are more northern teams.


Splitting the country into North, Midlands and South. Midlands for this argument being roughly around Birmingham and Leicester region. This is the breakdown for each league.
I am sure people will argue with where I have put some teams and of course where the North /South split is.

Premier League
North (7) - Newcastle, Burnley, Man United, Man City, Liverpool, Everton and Huddersfield
Midland (2) - Wolves and Leicester
South (11) - Cardiff, Watford, Tottenham, Arsenal, Chelsea, Fulham, Crystal Palace, West Ham, Bournemouth, Southampton and Brighton

Championship
North (10) - Middlesborough, Preston NE, Blackburn, Wigan, Leeds, Bolton, Hull, Rotheram, Sheffield Wednesday and United
Midlands? (6) - Stoke, Derby, Nottingham, West Brom, Aston Villa and Birmingham
South (8) - Norwich, Ipswich, Swansea, Bristol, Reading, Brentford, Millwall and QPR

League 1
North (9) - Sunderland, Fleetwood, Blackpool, Accrington, Rochdale, Bradford, Barnsley, Doncaster and Scunthorpe.
Midlands (5) - Shrewsbury, Burton, Walsall, Coventry and Peterborough
South (10) - Plymouth, Bristol, Luton, Oxford, Wycombe, Portsmouth, Wimbledon, Southend, Charlton and Gillingham

League 2 - there is a more visible geographic split here, so some clubs which may previously have been midlands have been joined with North or South.
North (12) - Carlisle, Morecombe, Bury, Oldham, Tranmere, Crewe, Macclesfield, Pot Vale, Grismby, Lincoln, Mansfield and Notts County

South (12) - Exeter, Yeovil, Newport, FGR, Cheltenham, Swindon, Northampton, MK Dons, Stevenage, Cambridge, Colchester and Crawley

National Premier
North (9) - Gateshead, Hartlepool, Barrow, Fylde, Harrogate, Halifax, Salford, Chesterfield and Wrexham
Midlands (1) - Solihull Moors
South (14) - Braintree, Boreham, Maidenhead, Aldershot, Exeter, Havant Waterlooville, Ebbsfleet, Maidstone, Dover, Barnet, Sutton, Leyton Orient, Dagenham and Bromley



Totals from this dissection -
North - 47
Midlands - 14
South - 55


Northern teams not helped by step 3 and below having unequal number of league in each region.


If we're talking about Step 2 I would try to split the country in half in terms of population.

Premier League
North (9) - Newcastle, Burnley, Man United, Man City, Liverpool, Everton, Huddersfield, Wolves and Leicester
South (11) - Cardiff, Watford, Tottenham, Arsenal, Chelsea, Fulham, Crystal Palace, West Ham, Bournemouth, Southampton and Brighton

Championship
North (16) - Middlesborough, Preston NE, Blackburn, Wigan, Leeds, Bolton, Hull, Rotheram, Sheffield Wednesday and United, Stoke, Derby, Nottingham, West Brom, Aston Villa and Birmingham
South (8) - Norwich, Ipswich, Swansea, Bristol, Reading, Brentford, Millwall and QPR

League 1
North (13) - Sunderland, Fleetwood, Blackpool, Accrington, Rochdale, Bradford, Barnsley, Doncaster, Scunthorpe & Shrewsbury, Burton, Walsall & Coventry
South (11) - Plymouth, Bristol, Luton, Oxford, Wycombe, Portsmouth, Wimbledon, Southend, Charlton, Gillingham and Peterborough

League 2 -
North (13) - Carlisle, Morecombe, Bury, Oldham, Tranmere, Crewe, Macclesfield, Pot Vale, Grismby, Lincoln, Mansfield and Notts County & Northampton

South (11) - Exeter, Yeovil, Newport, FGR, Cheltenham, Swindon, MK Dons, Stevenage, Cambridge, Colchester and Crawley

National Premier
North (10) - Gateshead, Hartlepool, Barrow, Fylde, Harrogate, Halifax, Salford, Chesterfield and Wrexham & Solihull Moors
South (14) - Braintree, Boreham, Maidenhead, Aldershot, Exeter, Havant Waterlooville, Ebbsfleet, Maidstone, Dover, Barnet, Sutton, Leyton Orient, Dagenham and Bromley



Totals from this dissection -
North - 61
South - 55

You are right though, not a great deal of difference, I always thought there was a bigger difference.

I think the imbalance at Steps 4 & 3 and therefore now at 2 is caused by the step 5 leagues. Need one more in the North West and one more in the Midlands.



How 2020/2021 could look like (based on 2018/2019)

Non League Projections - 2020/21 - https://docs.google.com/...fAI/edit?usp=sharing

Step 1 - https://drive.google.com/...1zLX5Ju5&usp=sharing
Step 2 - https://drive.google.com/...REZzvDIU&usp=sharing
Step 3 - https://drive.google.com/...GYGtPp8H&usp=sharing
Step 4 - https://drive.google.com/...DJBN8cC-&usp=sharing
Alternative - https://drive.google.com/...vkdOju1Q&usp=sharing
Step 5 - https://drive.google.com/...I48iX_bL&usp=sharing
Step 6 - https://drive.google.com/...siBvGhTK&usp=sharing or https://drive.google.com/...pNmsB_JW&usp=sharing


oftenscore6
Chelsea Transfer Target

Oct 2, 2018, 5:37 PM

Posts: 5234
Location: Saddleworth
Team(s): FCUM, MUFC, Hammarby, St Pauli, Hawthorn (AFL)

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Is part of the problem at Level 6 / Step 2 that there are more Northern teams at Levels 1-5?

Sure there are too few Northern / Midland Step 5 leagues which also affects things.

The teams at levels 1-5 can always make one-off impacts on step 2 composition via level 5 relegation, but the systemic problem is the larger number of Southern divisions at the point at which pooling applies. Since there have been more southern divisions at step 5 and 6, this has filtered into step 4 and step 3 with a Southern imbalance now.

Take a look at step 4 - of the 7 divisions, 4 are very clearly Southern, whilst 2 are Northern (including those famous northerners, Wisbech). The 7th division, Southern Central, has 6 teams in what I'd expect is Conf North footprint and 14 in South territory. So you've 46 North/Midlands and 94 Southern. When step 4 promotion comes around, thanks to pooling, some of these Southern sides will be required to move into the 2nd most Northern step 3 division (South Central), which ought to be a pure Conferenece North feeder, but already has Hitchin, Needham Market and Leiston in.

How to solve it? Well ringfencing promotion to an area instead of pooling would work; or you need to rebalance the pyramid by extra promotions and divisions in the North. It's quite a lot to promote though to rebalance - whilst there's some scope with Northern League, Central Midlands and from the West Mids area, I'm sure it would need some grading relaxation at least for a few years (as was the case with southern additional divisions recently). The former would make more sense to me but the FA seem to be against that.



-----------------------------------------------
Last new football ground (956) Wellington 0-2 Exmouth Town
With FC United: 134
On the agenda:
15/10 FC United v Basford United
16/10 Ashland Rovers v Underwood Villa
19/10 Atherton Collieries v FC United


borninchesham
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Oct 2, 2018, 7:03 PM

Posts: 273
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Team(s): Queens Park Rangers & Chesham United

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Re: [Wijit99] Step two next season [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately

Interesting that you have Norwich in the south & Coventry in the midlands.
I believe that Norwich is further north & nearly level with Birmingham.


Wijit99
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Oct 2, 2018, 7:44 PM

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Re: [borninchesham] Step two next season [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately

Norwich was one of those that could have gone in either Midlands or South. I chose South mainly because I would associate teams round that area ending up in last years Isthmian League, which is typically a southern league.


However, I would not disagree with anyone putting it in the midlands. As I said earlier it all about where and how you draw the boundaries.



The main point still remains the same, that there isn't a dominance from either North nor South.


MiddxSaint
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Oct 14, 2018, 9:15 PM

Posts: 316
Location: Hayes
Team(s): St Albans City

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Re: [hemelhopper] Step two next season [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately

Hemel Hempstead is one junction further north on the M1. It would be easier to get to than Chelmsford City for northern clubs.

Still miffed that they stole the M10 that led to St Albans and renumbered it A414.


MiddxSaint
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Oct 14, 2018, 9:17 PM

Posts: 316
Location: Hayes
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Hemel Hempstead is one junction further north on the M1 than St Albans. It would be easier to get to than Chelmsford City for northern clubs.

Still miffed that they stole the M10 that led to St Albans and renumbered it A414.



genesimmons
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Oct 15, 2018, 1:24 PM

Posts: 331
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Re: [MiddxSaint] Step two next season [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately

anyone read this weeks non league paper? A regular columnist mentioned the pyramid restructuring and bizarre going on with promotion. Im sure everyone has heard about this but it was good to see it summarised. The in-balance in the 8th tier (7 divisions) is obviously only a short term thing and will no doubt be solved once a north east and yorkshire evostick division is created. But as mentioned in the NLP the bizare promotion from step 3-2 where play off winners may not go up could be easily solved by 4 down from each step 2 division. Wonder why this has not happened surely the fa can over rule the national league. The conference premier sure has a more northern feel, most northernly feel in years with even gateshead having a few local games but i pity those in conference north if the bottom 4 pretty much stay as they are.



You wanted the best, you got the best


oftenscore6
Chelsea Transfer Target

Oct 15, 2018, 1:52 PM

Posts: 5234
Location: Saddleworth
Team(s): FCUM, MUFC, Hammarby, St Pauli, Hawthorn (AFL)

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In Reply To
anyone read this weeks non league paper? A regular columnist mentioned the pyramid restructuring and bizarre going on with promotion. Im sure everyone has heard about this but it was good to see it summarised. The in-balance in the 8th tier (7 divisions) is obviously only a short term thing and will no doubt be solved once a north east and yorkshire evostick division is created. But as mentioned in the NLP the bizare promotion from step 3-2 where play off winners may not go up could be easily solved by 4 down from each step 2 division. Wonder why this has not happened surely the fa can over rule the national league. The conference premier sure has a more northern feel, most northernly feel in years with even gateshead having a few local games but i pity those in conference north if the bottom 4 pretty much stay as they are.

Unfortunately, the 8th step 4 division will do little unless the step 5 & 6 divisions to populate it are in place, thanks to pooling.

It's too late to change the relegation places at step 2 this season, but I expect the argument would be that 4 relegation places is more appropriate for a 24 team division than a 22. At least all the step 3 playoff entrants have a chance of being promoted.

For me, the shambles is step 4 playoffs, where several teams will know before they playoffs start that they can't get promoted, whatever the circumstance. They could have offered at least a further playoff between 4 of the divisional playoff winers to produce the requisite 5 promotees.



-----------------------------------------------
Last new football ground (956) Wellington 0-2 Exmouth Town
With FC United: 134
On the agenda:
15/10 FC United v Basford United
16/10 Ashland Rovers v Underwood Villa
19/10 Atherton Collieries v FC United


pokal02
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Oct 15, 2018, 6:46 PM

Posts: 2303
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Re: [oftenscore6] Step two next season [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately

They may want to create an 8th division - and I agree, Wisbech & Morpeth in the same division at Step 4 is just silly. But they'll have to promote an excess number of clubs (5 or 6?) from the NL, NCEL and possibly a couple extra from UCL, MFA or ECL too at the end of next season or it just won't work. Can't see them doing that, but who knows?


genesimmons
Youth Team Star

Oct 16, 2018, 1:14 PM

Posts: 331
Location: Chesterfield
Team(s): Gateshead

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In Reply To
They may want to create an 8th division - and I agree, Wisbech & Morpeth in the same division at Step 4 is just silly. But they'll have to promote an excess number of clubs (5 or 6?) from the NL, NCEL and possibly a couple extra from UCL, MFA or ECL too at the end of next season or it just won't work. Can't see them doing that, but who knows?

Im guessing the league will cover Sheffield to Berwick so the bulk of extra teams will be from NCEL and northern league. The fa have already shown they mean business with compulsory promotion so to make this work they will have to force the top 6 of those divisions to go up. Maybe others might be cherry picked but its no good going to the northern league and asking for half a dozen applicants ans there wont be that many.



You wanted the best, you got the best


royboy
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Oct 16, 2018, 2:03 PM

Posts: 713
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Post #24 of 25 (12711 views)
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Re: [genesimmons] Step two next season [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately


In Reply To
anyone read this weeks non league paper? A regular columnist mentioned the pyramid restructuring and bizarre going on with promotion. Im sure everyone has heard about this but it was good to see it summarised. The in-balance in the 8th tier (7 divisions) is obviously only a short term thing and will no doubt be solved once a north east and yorkshire evostick division is created. But as mentioned in the NLP the bizare promotion from step 3-2 where play off winners may not go up could be easily solved by 4 down from each step 2 division. Wonder why this has not happened surely the fa can over rule the national league. The conference premier sure has a more northern feel, most northernly feel in years with even gateshead having a few local games but i pity those in conference north if the bottom 4 pretty much stay as they are.


The FA could try to over rule the National League but if it came to a stand off between the two there would only be one winner and this would not be the FA.


The Football League went their own way in 1888 and today we have restraint of trade laws which did not exist back then making it certain the will of the National League would, in my view, prevail.


Rebel Yeller
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Oct 16, 2018, 2:33 PM

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Team(s): Hopper

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Re: [pokal02] Step two next season [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately

I agree. Wisbech and Morpeth in the same division is ridiculous, but the FA will not promote en masse from any league or division. They have not shown the slightest inclination to do so in the past and I don't see that this is likely to change.

The Step 5 champions will be promoted with any others required to make up any shortfall, but these others will only be runners up in their leagues. The FA will then shuffle the clubs into the appropriate leagues, irrespective of the resulting travelling distances. They believe that they have to be seen to be fair ( or some rejected clubs may view litigation as an option) and this is the only way to do it.
There answer to any criticism is that over a number of years this will sort itself out, which it probably will. That won't help financially struggling clubs in the meantime though.

 
 


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