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Non League Projections 2019/20

 

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THDrummer1
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Re: [royboy] Non League Projections 2019/20 [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately


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Any ideas what happens if the number of leagues with clubs from level 7 available for promotion falls below 19? It is supposed to be no more than club up per league AND no reprieves for last placed level 6 clubs?



Only 1 club can be promoted per step 7 league. As for the last placed side being automatically relegated. I think it’ll be at the League Committees discretion.


There are already 27 vacacies at step 6 with, possibly, more to come by the end of the season. As others have said there is no need for any relegation at all with pleny of room for the promotees from step 7.

But will the idiots on the LMC see it that way? After last years affair, where the LMC did not even follow their own declared policy, I very much doubt it.


-----------

Agreed. I can't see the FALC filling all the step 6 vacancies this year (actually 29, 3 at step 5 and 26 at step 6) although personally I think an increase of about 12 to 15 clubs at steps 5 and 6 would make sense. As you indicated though.......this is the FALC.


THDrummer1
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Re: [paulh66] Non League Projections 2019/20 [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately


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Just having one of my infrequent glances through this section so apologies if I'm just repeating what's already known. But, looking at the NLS Regs, given no more than 27 clubs will come up from step 7, at least 11 clubs will be reprieved from relegation from step 6, determined on a ppg game basis. Any further reprieves (due to vacancies arising) will be discretionary. Then, only if vacancies exist in a particular league, a club outside the NLS system might get to fill that vacancy. If the three named by windydcfc turns out to be all there are, then you'd imagine Jersey and Bracknell reserves get the nod (the CoCo has, I believe, already backed both of them). AFC Skem, though, would presumably have a problem as there's no vacancy (..yet) in the NWCL.
----------------------------
Extracts of relevant regulation (in quotations, with my own tuppen'orth added):

"At the end of the Regular Playing Season the Clubs in the bottom two positions of each of the nineteen Step 6 divisions will be liable to relegation" and "No more than 38 Clubs will be promoted from Step 7." "Where the eligible Clubs count does not reach 38 in number, reprieves of Step 6 Clubs shall come into effect on a points per match basis."

Then the issue of filling vacancies in leagues:

"Where a vacancy arises at Step 5 and below, the question of reprieves shall be dealt with at the sole discretion of the Committee."
(Don't know how they'll go about that but, although some on here may instinctively disagree, I'd expect there to be a consistent pattern in how the committee exercises its discretion in these cases, and that it'd at least be compatible with achieving their overall vision of the so-called 'perfect pyramid.').
Then, to further help fill those vacancies "a League may seek approval from the Committee to receive a club or team not currently in membership of a League within the NLS provided that there is: (a) exceptional circumstances, (b) a vacancy within its constitution, (c) the club meets the entry criteria and (d) promotion and relegation issues have been satisfied." (Self explanatory, but notable that this is done at the individual league level rather than at the step-wide level.)



_____________


My confusion re step 6 relegation continues. The following is from the South East Counties League website:

At the end of the Regular Playing Season the Clubs in the bottom two positions of each of the nineteen Step 6 divisions will be liable to relegation.

No more than 38 Clubs will be promoted from Step 7. Where the eligible Clubs count does not reach 38 in number, reprieves of Step 6 Clubs shall come into effect on a points per game basis. For example, if 34 teams come up from Step 7 instead of the maximum of 38, then the 4 clubs with the best PPG averages will be reprieved.

The bottom club will not be eligible for a reprieve.


This states that clubs at the bottom of each step league will be relegated, so that's a minimum of 19 step 6 clubs; there may be as few as 20 - 25 step 7 promotions.

Where is the sense in this? As someone stated previously step 6 will never be suitably populated if the FA carry on with this.


paulh66
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Mar 7, 2019, 8:25 PM

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Re: [THDrummer1] Non League Projections 2019/20 [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately

Can you give us a link or exact reference to where states "the bottom club will not be eligible for a reprieve"?
I can see where the other stuff you've mentioned is covered in the NLS Regs but I can't immediately see any mention about the bottom step 6 club being ineligible for a reprieve.


THDrummer1
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Mar 7, 2019, 9:09 PM

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Re: [paulh66] Non League Projections 2019/20 [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately


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Can you give us a link or exact reference to where states "the bottom club will not be eligible for a reprieve"?
I can see where the other stuff you've mentioned is covered in the NLS Regs but I can't immediately see any mention about the bottom step 6 club being ineligible for a reprieve.


--------

It's on the South East Counties League website, select news off the menu and the heading step 5 and 6 promotion and relegation (or similar) - the wording is there amongst the current ppg selections.


paulh66
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Mar 7, 2019, 10:16 PM

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Re: [THDrummer1] Non League Projections 2019/20 [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately

Well that's a curious anomaly. In summary:

1) unless I've developed a blind spot, the NLS Regs - which are the authority here - say nothing about the bottom step 6 club being ineligible for a reprieve. (Someone please correct me if I'm wrong!)

2) this page on the SCEFL website, whose narrative is non-authoritative but merely accompanies spreadsheets developed by a chap called Alan Heath, states that the bottom club is ineligible for a reprieve: https://scefl.com/tables/ppg-step-6.

3) However, that page then links through to what it calls "full promotion and relegation guidelines", which looks like a cribbed version of the NLS Regs and accompanying FA narrative......but it says nothing about the bottom club being ineligible for a reprieve! https://scefl.com/...tion-relegation-1819


So I share your confusion!
As I said in an earlier post when you referenced another website stating no reprieves for step 6's bottom clubs, it may be the FA released a statement to that effect at some point after the NLS Regs were issued but, if they did, has anyone seen it? If not, my guess is that this is an error on the SCEFL website (possibly wording that was used in the previous season's regs but is now obsolete?).
Best bet, I suppose, is to contact the league to find out where they got that wording from.


hawkwind
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Mar 8, 2019, 12:02 AM

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Re: [paulh66] Non League Projections 2019/20 [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately

From the 2018-19 FA Handbook:

'At the end of the Regular Playing Season the Clubs in the bottom two positions of each of the nineteen Step 6 divisions will be liable to relegation.'

'No more than 38 Clubs will be promoted from Step 7. If more than 38 Clubs are eligible for promotion they will be chosen based on a points per match basis. Where the eligible Clubs count
does not reach 38 in number, reprieves of Step 6 Clubs shall come into effect on a points per match basis.'


paulh66
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Mar 8, 2019, 12:10 AM

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Re: [hawkwind] Non League Projections 2019/20 [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately

Cheers, yes, I've referenced that regulation previously. But, although the bottom two are "liable" to relegation before reprieves kick in, it doesn't go so far as to preclude reprieves for clubs finishing bottom.


(This post was edited by paulh66 on Mar 8, 2019, 12:38 AM)


windydcfc
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Mar 8, 2019, 6:06 AM

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Re: [paulh66] Non League Projections 2019/20 [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately

The NWCL website is usually the best to get FA rules & regs http://www.hallmarksecurityleague.com/...lations%20018-19.pdf
Section 5.2 & scroll down to step 6/7, it states that the bottom 2 are liable to relegation.


windydcfc
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Re: [wazzafan] Non League Projections 2019/20 [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately

With Colwyn Bay’s confirmation that they are joining the Welsh pyramid. An extra promotion for the runners up at step 6, plus Kendal will be reprieved & another reprieve across step 5.


Unicorn
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Mar 8, 2019, 7:21 AM

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Re: [windydcfc] Non League Projections 2019/20 [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately

Strange how times and opinions change.
25 years ago so opposed to the idea.

But from an English pyramid perspective just another complication at the end of the season.


(This post was edited by Unicorn on Mar 8, 2019, 7:45 AM)


THDrummer1
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Mar 8, 2019, 7:57 AM

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Re: [windydcfc] Non League Projections 2019/20 [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately


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The NWCL website is usually the best to get FA rules & regs http://www.hallmarksecurityleague.com/...lations%20018-19.pdf
Section 5.2 & scroll down to step 6/7, it states that the bottom 2 are liable to relegation.
______________

Well there's definitely nothing in there about no reprieves for bottom based clubs; one can only assume that the South East Counties League website and The Bootiful Game website are mistaken.

From those regulations it appears that if, for example, only 12 step 6 teams were relegated it would be the 12 with the lowest ppg regardless of whether they are bottom placed clubs or second bottom placed clubs.

Therefore, 2 clubs in the Hellenic League Division 1 West would be relegated (as things stand) but none from the Southern Counties East Division 1 would be, even though the Hellenic League is short on numbers. I suppose this is where the scope for lateral transfers come in.

I've I assessed this correctly, or is there another stipulation hidden away somewhere?



windydcfc
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Mar 8, 2019, 8:20 AM

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Re: [THDrummer1] Non League Projections 2019/20 [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately


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The NWCL website is usually the best to get FA rules & regs http://www.hallmarksecurityleague.com/...lations%20018-19.pdf
Section 5.2 & scroll down to step 6/7, it states that the bottom 2 are liable to relegation.
______________

Well there's definitely nothing in there about no reprieves for bottom based clubs; one can only assume that the South East Counties League website and The Bootiful Game website are mistaken.

From those regulations it appears that if, for example, only 12 step 6 teams were relegated it would be the 12 with the lowest ppg regardless of whether they are bottom placed clubs or second bottom placed clubs.

Therefore, 2 clubs in the Hellenic League Division 1 West would be relegated (as things stand) but none from the Southern Counties East Division 1 would be, even though the Hellenic League is short on numbers. I suppose this is where the scope for lateral transfers come in.

I've I assessed this correctly, or is there another stipulation hidden away somewhere?




I think the way that the LC will get around it, is the wording ‘liable to relegation’ instead of ‘will be relegated’ which is used for the other steps.


THDrummer1
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Mar 8, 2019, 8:33 AM

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Re: [windydcfc] Non League Projections 2019/20 [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately


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The NWCL website is usually the best to get FA rules & regs http://www.hallmarksecurityleague.com/...lations%20018-19.pdf
Section 5.2 & scroll down to step 6/7, it states that the bottom 2 are liable to relegation.
______________

Well there's definitely nothing in there about no reprieves for bottom based clubs; one can only assume that the South East Counties League website and The Bootiful Game website are mistaken.

From those regulations it appears that if, for example, only 12 step 6 teams were relegated it would be the 12 with the lowest ppg regardless of whether they are bottom placed clubs or second bottom placed clubs.

Therefore, 2 clubs in the Hellenic League Division 1 West would be relegated (as things stand) but none from the Southern Counties East Division 1 would be, even though the Hellenic League is short on numbers. I suppose this is where the scope for lateral transfers come in.

I've I assessed this correctly, or is there another stipulation hidden away somewhere?




I think the way that the LC will get around it, is the wording ‘liable to relegation’ instead of ‘will be relegated’ which is used for the other steps.
__________

I agree, the phrase 'liable to relegation' gives them some wriggle room.

The bit I'm a bit unclear on is: Could a club who finish in the bottom 2 of their league with a ppg of say 0.8 be relegated, whilst a club who finish in the bottom 2 of their league with a ppg of say 0.5 survive due to the latters league being short on numbers/geographical position?

Surely this would go against the regulations laid out by the FA and is a reason why lateral transfers are more prevalent.



windydcfc
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Mar 8, 2019, 8:55 AM

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Re: [THDrummer1] Non League Projections 2019/20 [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately


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In Reply To

In Reply To
The NWCL website is usually the best to get FA rules & regs http://www.hallmarksecurityleague.com/...lations%20018-19.pdf
Section 5.2 & scroll down to step 6/7, it states that the bottom 2 are liable to relegation.
______________

Well there's definitely nothing in there about no reprieves for bottom based clubs; one can only assume that the South East Counties League website and The Bootiful Game website are mistaken.

From those regulations it appears that if, for example, only 12 step 6 teams were relegated it would be the 12 with the lowest ppg regardless of whether they are bottom placed clubs or second bottom placed clubs.

Therefore, 2 clubs in the Hellenic League Division 1 West would be relegated (as things stand) but none from the Southern Counties East Division 1 would be, even though the Hellenic League is short on numbers. I suppose this is where the scope for lateral transfers come in.

I've I assessed this correctly, or is there another stipulation hidden away somewhere?




I think the way that the LC will get around it, is the wording ‘liable to relegation’ instead of ‘will be relegated’ which is used for the other steps.
__________

I agree, the phrase 'liable to relegation' gives them some wriggle room.

The bit I'm a bit unclear on is: Could a club who finish in the bottom 2 of their league with a ppg of say 0.8 be relegated, whilst a club who finish in the bottom 2 of their league with a ppg of say 0.5 survive due to the latters league being short on numbers/geographical position?

Surely this would go against the regulations laid out by the FA and is a reason why lateral transfers are more prevalent.




This has been mentioned most seasons & especially at the end of last season. Clubs have been reprieved on zero points in seasons past, just because of their geographic location. It’s wrong & hopefully lateral transfers will be the first port of call.


THDrummer1
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Re: [windydcfc] Non League Projections 2019/20 [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately


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In Reply To

In Reply To

In Reply To
The NWCL website is usually the best to get FA rules & regs http://www.hallmarksecurityleague.com/...lations%20018-19.pdf
Section 5.2 & scroll down to step 6/7, it states that the bottom 2 are liable to relegation.
______________

Well there's definitely nothing in there about no reprieves for bottom based clubs; one can only assume that the South East Counties League website and The Bootiful Game website are mistaken.

From those regulations it appears that if, for example, only 12 step 6 teams were relegated it would be the 12 with the lowest ppg regardless of whether they are bottom placed clubs or second bottom placed clubs.

Therefore, 2 clubs in the Hellenic League Division 1 West would be relegated (as things stand) but none from the Southern Counties East Division 1 would be, even though the Hellenic League is short on numbers. I suppose this is where the scope for lateral transfers come in.

I've I assessed this correctly, or is there another stipulation hidden away somewhere?




I think the way that the LC will get around it, is the wording ‘liable to relegation’ instead of ‘will be relegated’ which is used for the other steps.
__________

I agree, the phrase 'liable to relegation' gives them some wriggle room.

The bit I'm a bit unclear on is: Could a club who finish in the bottom 2 of their league with a ppg of say 0.8 be relegated, whilst a club who finish in the bottom 2 of their league with a ppg of say 0.5 survive due to the latters league being short on numbers/geographical position?

Surely this would go against the regulations laid out by the FA and is a reason why lateral transfers are more prevalent.




This has been mentioned most seasons & especially at the end of last season. Clubs have been reprieved on zero points in seasons past, just because of their geographic location. It’s wrong & hopefully lateral transfers will be the first port of call.
_________

You'd like to think that lateral transfers would be the priority especially as there are numerous vacancies across the various steps (one more now with Colwyn Bay moving to the Welsh League).

I could understand a club being massively annoyed if they finished next to bottom on 0.9 ppg and went down but a club in another part of the country finished bottom on 0.15 ppg but survived due to their location - the regulations do seem to eliminate this possibility though; but as we've said on numerous occasions - THIS IS THE FA WE'RE TALKING ABOUT Mad



THDrummer1
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Mar 8, 2019, 9:36 AM

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Re: [paulh66] Non League Projections 2019/20 [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately


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Well that's a curious anomaly. In summary:

1) unless I've developed a blind spot, the NLS Regs - which are the authority here - say nothing about the bottom step 6 club being ineligible for a reprieve. (Someone please correct me if I'm wrong!)

2) this page on the SCEFL website, whose narrative is non-authoritative but merely accompanies spreadsheets developed by a chap called Alan Heath, states that the bottom club is ineligible for a reprieve: https://scefl.com/tables/ppg-step-6.

3) However, that page then links through to what it calls "full promotion and relegation guidelines", which looks like a cribbed version of the NLS Regs and accompanying FA narrative......but it says nothing about the bottom club being ineligible for a reprieve! https://scefl.com/...tion-relegation-1819


So I share your confusion!
As I said in an earlier post when you referenced another website stating no reprieves for step 6's bottom clubs, it may be the FA released a statement to that effect at some point after the NLS Regs were issued but, if they did, has anyone seen it? If not, my guess is that this is an error on the SCEFL website (possibly wording that was used in the previous season's regs but is now obsolete?).
Best bet, I suppose, is to contact the league to find out where they got that wording from.
____________

One can only assume that the SECL website is mistaken, or that the 'no reprieves for bottom placed clubs' has been dropped due to there being a relative low number of potential promotions from step 7/vacancies in steps 5 and 6.



paulh66
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Mar 8, 2019, 9:49 AM

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Re: [THDrummer1] Non League Projections 2019/20 [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately

I'd be wary about assuming anything although it does look that way. The league should be able to quickly give a definitive answer seeing as they've put it on their website (as well as the full NLS Regs).

The notion earlier in this discussion, however, that 'liable to relegation' before reprieving on ppg might somehow be contorted into automatically relegating bottom placed clubs is too big a stretch because it could actually end up contradicting the regulation.


windydcfc
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Mar 8, 2019, 9:59 AM

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Re: [THDrummer1] Non League Projections 2019/20 [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately

I emailed Laurence Jones at the FA & asked the question about step 6 relegations: Will there be any relegations, or will reprieves be used & will ppg basis be taken into account. Also I asked if they are looking at reprieves this season, because of the restructure the season after next(so they’ve got enough clubs to cover it). He replied immediately & this was his reply:
The points you have raised will be considered by the League Committee when we know how the landscape will look at the end of the season, both options could apply, as there is a view that bottom placed clubs should be relegated, but that is balanced by the preference being to ensure that leagues run with the required numbers.


paulh66
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The NWCL website is usually the best to get FA rules & regs http://www.hallmarksecurityleague.com/...lations%20018-19.pdf
Section 5.2 & scroll down to step 6/7, it states that the bottom 2 are liable to relegation.


I guess most if not all the leagues have them somewhere online. The SCEFL website has a direct link to the FA Handbook and NLS Regs on its home page so I find it far quicker to go through there. Just personal preference though, they all say the same.


paulh66
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Mar 8, 2019, 10:19 AM

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I emailed Laurence Jones at the FA & asked the question about step 6 relegations: Will there be any relegations, or will reprieves be used & will ppg basis be taken into account. Also I asked if they are looking at reprieves this season, because of the restructure the season after next(so they’ve got enough clubs to cover it). He replied immediately & this was his reply:
The points you have raised will be considered by the League Committee when we know how the landscape will look at the end of the season, both options could apply, as there is a view that bottom placed clubs should be relegated, but that is balanced by the preference being to ensure that leagues run with the required numbers.


Reg 5.2 says reprieves will be on ppg basis if fewer than 38 clubs come up from step 7 - that's clear enough except for this (as yet unexplained) anomaly THDrummer has found outside of the regs. However, Reg 5.5, which deals with filling vacancies in leagues, does give the LC committee discretion over reprieves in such cases (I.e. where leagues have vacancies).

Mr Jones' response needs to be considered in that context. It also doesn't explain why some sources are stating that the bottom club will be ineligible for reprieve - which is not only contrary to the Regs but also not entirely consistent with Mr Jones' comments.


(This post was edited by paulh66 on Mar 8, 2019, 10:25 AM)


markust
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One can only assume that the SECL website is mistaken, or that the 'no reprieves for bottom placed clubs' has been dropped due to there being a relative low number of potential promotions from step 7/vacancies in steps 5 and 6.


At Step 5 there's a practical example of where a bottom club wasn't reprieved.

NWCFL 2013/14

Formby won promotion in 2nd place in the Div 1 (step 6).

They folded before the AGM, meaning the place would have reprieved a team in the premier (step 5).

Bacup had already been reprieved, leaving last place Wigan Robin Park as the only team being relegated.

As the bottom position could not be reprieved, the step 5 place passed back down to 1874 Northwich in 3rd place at Step 6 as a promotion spot.


(This post was edited by markust on Mar 8, 2019, 10:56 AM)


Richard Rundle
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Re: [markust] Non League Projections 2019/20 [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately

What happened in 2014 is virtually irrelevant, a lot of the rules and regulations have changed since then.

I hope we don't end up with too many lateral transfers at Step 6, shuting clubs into leagues they didn't want to be in.


THDrummer1
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I emailed Laurence Jones at the FA & asked the question about step 6 relegations: Will there be any relegations, or will reprieves be used & will ppg basis be taken into account. Also I asked if they are looking at reprieves this season, because of the restructure the season after next(so they’ve got enough clubs to cover it). He replied immediately & this was his reply:
The points you have raised will be considered by the League Committee when we know how the landscape will look at the end of the season, both options could apply, as there is a view that bottom placed clubs should be relegated, but that is balanced by the preference being to ensure that leagues run with the required numbers.

_____________

Credit to him for getting back to you so promptly, although his response doesn't shed much light on the situation. To be fair I can understand why as they don't know how many step 7 applicants will be successful or how many step 6 vacancies there will be.

Reading between the lines it appears that there is a desire to get the individual leagues to/close to the 20 teams per division aim.

As said earlier there is circa 30 vacancies at step 5 and 6; there will probably be fewer than 30 step 7/non step 7 applicants that reach the required criteria so you would have thought that the number of step 6 relegations would be fairly low - I suppose that the FALC may fill the 30 vacancies in two tranches; this close season (2019) and next close season (2020).



COLFC
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Re: [wazzafan] Non League Projections 2019/20 [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately

Thank you for your spreadhseet which is very informative, can anyone provide me with a link to the "dankwoh" spreadsheet? excuse the spelling of the name, I know it is something like that!!

Thanks


THDrummer1
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Mar 8, 2019, 4:13 PM

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Post #500 of 1236 (6801 views)
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Re: [THDrummer1] Non League Projections 2019/20 [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately

Just read on the Mergers & Closures thread on General Discussion that Oadby Town have resigned from the UCL..................yet another vacancy at step 5/6

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