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EU Withdrawal Negotiations

 

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leohoenig
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Apr 12, 2019, 6:29 PM

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Post #3476 of 3864 (2486 views)
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Re: [prorege] EU Withdrawal Negotiations [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately

But to be fair, Prorege - even after a narrow remain win, the issue would have faded away by now



Fat AND Pompous.
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PaulC
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Apr 12, 2019, 6:50 PM

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Post #3477 of 3864 (2473 views)
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Re: [prorege] EU Withdrawal Negotiations [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately


In Reply To
"Nobody would have questioned the validity of the vote had Remain won. "
- it's been mentioned numerous times on here how Farage said that a narrow defeat would not be the end of the matter. Here's the link:
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-eu-referendum-36306681




Whilst Rees-Mogg argued “We could have two referendums. As it happens, it might make more sense to have the second referendum after the renegotiation is completed.”


Yatesman
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Apr 12, 2019, 8:09 PM

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Post #3478 of 3864 (2434 views)
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Re: [prorege] EU Withdrawal Negotiations [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately


In Reply To

In Reply To

In Reply To

In Reply To
I have said before, a second referendum may be the only way out of the mess parliament has got us into. A legally binding referendum may be the only way forward. Is it the best way forward, probably. Should we even have had to consider it, no, parliament shouldn't have let us down in the way it has, but they have so it may be, I think it is becoming, the only way forward out of this mess. Make it legally binding then parliament can't go against whatever result it produces. Personally I don't think you need to worry as I think it will back brexit again.

In order for a legally binding referendum to work (or to have worked if it had been done the first time round) it would be necessary to define exactly what is meant by Brexit. Since the politicians can't agree on even that, the necessary legislation wouldn't get through parliament. This is why what seemed such a simple referendum question was actually hopelessly vague and has marched us into the current mess. The only way a second referendum will enable any progress to be made is if it is to confirm whether we are happy with any deal that is proposed.

Ok....but......

The referendum in 2016 was NOT charged with defining the future relationship with Europe.
That wasn't it's remit.
The purpose of the 2016 was to define the direction of travel, which was Leave, the details of which, we were all fully aware, was TO BE NEGOTIATED.

Both sides bought in to that. - The ERG and the DUP obviously didn't. They've continuously voted down the agreement that was negotiated.

It was only when the unthinkable happened the Remainers started creating issues.
Nobody would have questioned the validity of the vote had Remain won. - it's been mentioned numerous times on here how Farage said that a narrow defeat would not be the end of the matter. Here's the link:
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-eu-referendum-36306681




No you have got your focus all wrong.

I was referring to the Official Leave and Remain campaigns prior to the vote.

I can't recall too much input from the DUP prior to the vote and I don't believe the ERG were a 'thing' prior to vote.
Both came in to Brexit prominence long after the referendum took place.

The official campaigns expressed no concerns with the plebiscite, the question, the legality and both campaigns were content with and agreed with the Governments undertaking that the result would be honoured.

There is no legal or moral case for not delivering on that result and any argument to rerun that referendum by this or any other name is dishonesty, disingenuity dishonour and a disgusting act of arrogance and patronising pomposity.


PaulC
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Apr 13, 2019, 1:11 PM

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Post #3479 of 3864 (2289 views)
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Re: [Yatesman] EU Withdrawal Negotiations [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately

I see Annunziata Rees-Mogg has joined in the family fight against the Establishment.


Towlawtom
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Apr 13, 2019, 1:48 PM

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Post #3480 of 3864 (2269 views)
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Re: [PaulC] EU Withdrawal Negotiations [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately

(I'm Gonna Tell) 500 Lies - Nigel Farage's Brexit Party manifesto anthem

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v-xLmI352vE




I need to have the last word, as it always looks as if I am right !


Yatesman
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Apr 14, 2019, 8:42 PM

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Post #3481 of 3864 (2041 views)
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Re: [PaulC] EU Withdrawal Negotiations [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately


In Reply To
I see Annunziata Rees-Mogg has joined in the family fight against the Establishment.


We need some fresh faces in politics.......


R.S.Cavendish
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Apr 16, 2019, 11:37 AM

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Post #3482 of 3864 (1821 views)
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Re: [prorege] EU Withdrawal Negotiations [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately

I agree with you, Andy. The whole Brexit thing is a disgrace.
All I'm waiting for is a Corbyn government and some decent socialist policies.


buncranaboy
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Apr 16, 2019, 2:29 PM

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Post #3483 of 3864 (1748 views)
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Re: [R.S.Cavendish] EU Withdrawal Negotiations [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately


In Reply To
All I'm waiting for is a Corbyn government and some decent socialist policies.


Spot the oxymoron.

The policies are always great, the practices less so


Part-Timer
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Apr 16, 2019, 2:41 PM

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Post #3484 of 3864 (1743 views)
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Re: [buncranaboy] EU Withdrawal Negotiations [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately


In Reply To

In Reply To
All I'm waiting for is a Corbyn government and some decent socialist policies.


Spot the oxymoron.

The policies are always great, the practices less so

I was thinking that "Corbyn government" was the oxymoron.


007Dale
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Apr 16, 2019, 3:16 PM

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Post #3485 of 3864 (1720 views)
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Re: [Part-Timer] EU Withdrawal Negotiations [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately

We could have a record number of parties returned to the European Parliament on behalf of the U.K. next month with Change U.K. now approved to take part.

If I get this right;
1. Conservatives - Leave with a deal
2. UKIP - Leave without a deal.
3. Brexit Party - Leave without a deal.
4. DUP - Leave but not with Mays deal
5. Labour - Leave with common market after second vote
6. Change U.K. - Second referendum & Remain
7. Liberal Democrat’s - Remain
8. SNP - Remain in the EU and Leave U.K.
9. Plaid - Reamin in the EU and leave U.K.
10. Sinn Fein - Remain in the EU, Leave U.K. and Join RoI
11. Green - Remain in EU
12. Ulster Unionist - (Remain in 2016 referendum)


leohoenig
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Apr 16, 2019, 5:03 PM

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Post #3486 of 3864 (1668 views)
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Re: [007Dale] EU Withdrawal Negotiations [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately


In Reply To
We could have a record number of parties returned to the European Parliament on behalf of the U.K. next month with Change U.K. now approved to take part.

If I get this right;
1. Conservatives - Leave with a deal But some don't to leave, and others don't want a deal
2. UKIP - Leave without a deal. Actually, they don't want to leave at all - as campaigning to leave is the only reason they are there
3. Brexit Party - Leave without a deal. As above - this is just for Farage to be in the papers, and has we left, he would have had to find something else
4. DUP - Leave but not with Mays deal Don't really mind what happens, so long as they can make a fuss about it, and stay part of UK
5. Labour - Leave with common market after second vote. See Conservatives
6. Change U.K. - Second referendum & Remain Are these the gang of more than four, making less waves then the original Social democrat party?
7. Liberal Democrat’s - Remain Probably the most united party, as there are't many of them
8. SNP - Remain in the EU and Leave U.K.
9. Plaid - Reamin in the EU and leave U.K.
10. Sinn Fein - Remain in the EU, Leave U.K. and Join RoI
11. Green - Remain in EU
12. Ulster Unionist - (Remain in 2016 referendum)




Fat AND Pompous.
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Yatesman
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Apr 17, 2019, 7:44 PM

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Post #3487 of 3864 (1454 views)
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Re: [leohoenig] EU Withdrawal Negotiations [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately

For those that believe such nonsense the current polls show the Brexit Party well in front.
Personally I believe it's fake news designed to create a sense of jeopardy to galvanise the Remain vote who are famous for not actually bothering to take democracy particularly seriously.


Tykeoldboy
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Apr 17, 2019, 10:26 PM

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Post #3488 of 3864 (1403 views)
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Re: [007Dale] EU Withdrawal Negotiations [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately


In Reply To
We could have a record number of parties returned to the European Parliament on behalf of the U.K. next month with Change U.K. now approved to take part.

If I get this right;
1. Conservatives - Leave with a deal
2. UKIP - Leave without a deal.
3. Brexit Party - Leave without a deal.
4. DUP - Leave but not with Mays deal
5. Labour - Leave with common market after second vote
6. Change U.K. - Second referendum & Remain
7. Liberal Democrat’s - Remain
8. SNP - Remain in the EU and Leave U.K.
9. Plaid - Reamin in the EU and leave U.K.
10. Sinn Fein - Remain in the EU, Leave U.K. and Join RoI
11. Green - Remain in EU
12. Ulster Unionist - (Remain in 2016 referendum)


You missed out Monster Raving Loony Pa.... wait that is now just a description of the MP's that are currently in charge of sorting out Brexit.


jon b
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Apr 18, 2019, 5:30 AM

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Post #3489 of 3864 (1346 views)
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Re: [Yatesman] EU Withdrawal Negotiations [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately


In Reply To
For those that believe such nonsense the current polls show the Brexit Party well in front.
Personally I believe it's fake news designed to create a sense of jeopardy to galvanise the Remain vote who are famous for not actually bothering to take democracy particularly seriously.


As opposed to those who think democracy went on hold after the Referendum in 2016.

Ironically, the EU election is being described as a "soft Referendum" ie in effect another Referendum.

Labour have a difficult choice.

Lidington and Starmer are two of the few grown ups involved in the current mess, between them they could come up with a Brexit compromise deal that would have majority support in the HofC. But the worry for Labour is that any promises the Tories make now on workers rights etc could be renounced by May's successor later this year.

They may reckon that rather than agree a deal now with May/Lidington that lets the Tories avoid taking part in EU elections, they hold off, and let the Tories vigorously self harm themselves during a "soft Referendum". But they have to decide whether they could keep united themselves through such an election campaign.

.


PaulC
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Apr 18, 2019, 7:43 AM

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Post #3490 of 3864 (1310 views)
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Re: [Yatesman] EU Withdrawal Negotiations [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately


In Reply To
For those that believe such nonsense the current polls show the Brexit Party well in front.
Personally I believe it's fake news designed to create a sense of jeopardy to galvanise the Remain vote who are famous for not actually bothering to take democracy particularly seriously.

Latest Westminster poll

Labour 33%
Tories 23%
Brexit 14%


007Dale
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Apr 18, 2019, 8:46 AM

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Post #3491 of 3864 (1294 views)
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Re: [PaulC] EU Withdrawal Negotiations [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately


In Reply To

In Reply To
For those that believe such nonsense the current polls show the Brexit Party well in front.
Personally I believe it's fake news designed to create a sense of jeopardy to galvanise the Remain vote who are famous for not actually bothering to take democracy particularly seriously.

Latest Westminster poll

Labour 33%
Tories 23%
Brexit 14%


Surprised the Tories are as high as that.

I do think Change U.K. will end up splitting the Ultra-Remain vote in England. Not sure there is any benefit to them setting up that new party, surely a combination with the Lib Dem’s would be better (find myself agreeing with Vince Cable for once).


coops
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Apr 21, 2019, 10:21 AM

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Post #3492 of 3864 (1058 views)
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Re: [Yatesman] EU Withdrawal Negotiations [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately


In Reply To
For those that believe such nonsense the current polls show the Brexit Party well in front.


No they don't.
Labour are well in front in Westminster voting intentions.

In EU voting polls it's closer, Labour lead but the Brexit Party are in second place, admittedly well ahead of the Tories.


Yatesman
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Apr 21, 2019, 9:46 PM

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Post #3493 of 3864 (946 views)
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Re: [coops] EU Withdrawal Negotiations [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately


In Reply To

In Reply To
For those that believe such nonsense the current polls show the Brexit Party well in front.


No they don't.
Labour are well in front in Westminster voting intentions.

In EU voting polls it's closer, Labour lead but the Brexit Party are in second place, admittedly well ahead of the Tories.


There are other polls out there.....ie YouGov's, that confirms what I reported about the surge in support for Farage's new party putting them in the early lead for votes.
Whether or not they can sustain that initial groundswell of support is another matter.


leohoenig
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Apr 21, 2019, 11:37 PM

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Post #3494 of 3864 (901 views)
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Re: [Yatesman] EU Withdrawal Negotiations [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately


In Reply To

There are other polls out there.....ie YouGov's, that confirms what I reported about the surge in support for Farage's new party putting them in the early lead for votes.
Whether or not they can sustain that initial groundswell of support is another matter.


But of course, Yatesman - you don't believe in polls
Sly



Fat AND Pompous.
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Yatesman
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Apr 22, 2019, 7:16 AM

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Post #3495 of 3864 (849 views)
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Re: [leohoenig] EU Withdrawal Negotiations [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately


In Reply To

In Reply To

There are other polls out there.....ie YouGov's, that confirms what I reported about the surge in support for Farage's new party putting them in the early lead for votes.
Whether or not they can sustain that initial groundswell of support is another matter.


But of course, Yatesman - you don't believe in polls
Sly


100% Correctimundo!

However, I'm aware there are many that are beguiled by them , especially when they are tailored to produce the message they support.


hawkwind
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Apr 24, 2019, 1:51 AM

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Post #3496 of 3864 (671 views)
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Re: [leohoenig] EU Withdrawal Negotiations [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately

This is a TED presentation from last week.

Worth noting that AFAIK Zuckerberg, Dorsey, etc, were sitting in the audience.

(This post was edited by hawkwind on Apr 24, 2019, 1:52 AM)


Yatesman
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Apr 24, 2019, 10:29 PM

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Post #3497 of 3864 (515 views)
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Re: [hawkwind] EU Withdrawal Negotiations [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately


In Reply To
This is a TED presentation from last week.

Worth noting that AFAIK Zuckerberg, Dorsey, etc, were sitting in the audience.


I'm assuming you buy into her dubious narrative hook, line and sinker.

It's amazing how seductive some of these journalists' can be, especially when promulgating conspiracy theories and making a case for black ops and subterfuge but then, that is their job and their 'proof' is tenuous at best.

I, for one, don't do facebook so can't really comment about what was put on there. It didn't influence my vote.

If it is true that facebook overly influenced the Brexit vote would it not be fair to say the effect would have been even across the eectorate and across the country? In Scotland and in Essex, in Ebbw Vale and in Belfast...............And across all social groups? The vote showed vast regional differences.

tbh, no transgressions by the Leave campaign will ever come close to the absolutely shocking , dishonest and blatantly biased interfering of the Gov't when they sent out the £9million pro-EU leaflet to every household in the UK......

The truth is that Leave ran a better campaign and had a more coherent message..........and, quite simply, more people wanted to Leave than Remain!!!
I contend that the vast, vast majority of the elecctorate on both sides already had decided what they were going to vote and the only subversion of the electorate I've witnessed is that practised by the likes of Carole Cadwaller and her ilk to surreptitiosly change a perfectly legal vote that they lost.


leohoenig
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Apr 24, 2019, 11:00 PM

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Post #3498 of 3864 (495 views)
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Re: [Yatesman] EU Withdrawal Negotiations [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately

The one line I would argue on your last comment, Yatesman is that Brexit had a more coherent message
I think one of the reasons for its success was its incoherence, so as it could be all things to all men.
This is why no one appears to know what Brexit means, apart from Brexit means Brexit

Facebook profiling probably played a part in this - by sending the correct message in the correct directions and allowing people to believe what they wanted to believe
Clearly it did not affect you or me, as despite differences of opinion, we were always certain of the direction of our votes
How many were swayed by this is less clear, but it is obvious that small margins were all it took to sway some people, and a small margin applied to a national population is how the result played out



Fat AND Pompous.
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hawkwind
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Apr 25, 2019, 2:41 AM

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Post #3499 of 3864 (433 views)
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Re: [leohoenig] EU Withdrawal Negotiations [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately

Just in case you're not sure how the European Union works this links to a concise document explaining the basics.


007Dale
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Apr 25, 2019, 7:24 AM

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Post #3500 of 3864 (405 views)
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Re: [hawkwind] EU Withdrawal Negotiations [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately

Sturgeon has again called for IndyRef2 if we leave the European Union. Although she acknowledges this can only happen with the British Governments agreement.

Given that this is never going to happen under the current government, could it possibly be a pre-requisite for supporting a Corbyn-led Government after the next general election?

Obviously Labour are also against IndyRef2, but could it be included in a coalition of doom - much like the LD’s ill-fated
‘Alternative vote’ ref?

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