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Home: Non League Football Information: FA Competitions:
FA Cup 2019/20 - Subtle Step 6 Change!

 

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SWP-Phil
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Feb 22, 2019, 10:49 AM

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FA Cup 2019/20 - Subtle Step 6 Change! Can't Post or Reply Privately

I have recd an email today from the Competitions dept in relation to advertising the entry window to clubs for next season.

The criteria document does not state that a specific change has been made from this season, BUT the wording most certainly has.

Gone is The Top 4 plus any other spaces on PPG and in its place it now simply says :

" Clubs in Step 6 of The FA National League System.

In the event the Competition is oversubscribed, places will be determined based on a Clubs points per game at Step 6 of The FA National League System in the previous season."

So they have in affect given themselves license to reduce Step 6 to whatever the number of spaces actually are available.



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paulh66
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Apr 23, 2019, 9:47 AM

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Re: [SWP-Phil] FA Cup 2019/20 - Subtle Step 6 Change! [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately

I don't know if the FA has publicly said anything more on this but I've recently noticed a couple of step 6 clubs saying a top three finish will secure a place in next season's FA Cup.


Dazzla84
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Apr 29, 2019, 2:20 AM

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Re: [paulh66] FA Cup 2019/20 - Subtle Step 6 Change! [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately


In Reply To
I don't know if the FA has publicly said anything more on this but I've recently noticed a couple of step 6 clubs saying a top three finish will secure a place in next season's FA Cup.


If it is top three (plus the relegated Step 5 teams), then these are the lucky ones in line in that regard

NORTHERN: Northallerton Town
NORTHERN COUNTIES EAST: Harrogate Railway Athletic, Hall Road Rangers, Campion, Hallam
NORTH WEST COUNTIES NORTH & SOUTH: West Didsbury & Chorlton, Abbey Hey, Vauxhall Motors, AFC Liverpool, Stone Old Alleynians
MIDLAND: Dunkirk, Wolverhampton S.C., Atherstone Town
EAST MIDLANDS COUNTIES: Sherwood Colliery
WEST MIDLANDS REGIONAL: Haughmond, Wolverhampton Casuals
UNITED COUNTIES:Kirby Muxloe, Wellingboorugh Wanderers, Melton Town
EASTERN SENIOR NORTH & SOUTH: Great Yarmouth Town, Framlingham Town, Barkingside, Leyton Athletic, Coggeshall United, Mulbarton Wanderers, Halstead Town
SPARTAN SOUTH MIDLANDS: Stotfold, London Tigers, Winslow United
HELLENIC EAST & WEST: Abingdon United, Thame Rangers, Cheltenham Saracens, AFC Aldermaston, Thornbury Town
COMBINED COUNTIES: AFC Hayes, Walton & Hersham, Frimley Green, Tooting Bec
SOUTHERN COUNTIES EAST: Rusthall, Croydon, Erith & Belvedere, Kennington
SOUTHERN COMBINATION: Arundel, Shoreham, AFC Vardenians
WESSEX: Bemerton Heath Harlequins, Andover New Street, Hythe & Dibden
WESTERN: Hengrove Athletic, Shortwood United, Cheddar, Corsham Town
SOUTH WEST PENNINSULA: none*

* 3rd place side was a reserve team (Plymouth Argyle Reserves)



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kirby knitters
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Apr 29, 2019, 7:47 AM

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Re: [Dazzla84] FA Cup 2019/20 - Subtle Step 6 Change! [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately

United Counties. Wellingborough Wanderers should read Whitworth.


paulh66
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Apr 29, 2019, 12:29 PM

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Re: [Dazzla84] FA Cup 2019/20 - Subtle Step 6 Change! [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately

SWP League website refers to their clubs who've finished 4th and 5th as "both look(ing) for FA Cup qualification" so I don't know what the exact criteria are for qualifying for next season's competition.


E&E Fred
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May 1, 2019, 4:49 PM

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Re: [SWP-Phil] FA Cup 2019/20 - Subtle Step 6 Change! [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately

A few clubs in the CCL have recently been saying that they have qualified for the FA Cup, but I fail to see how they can know yet and must be guessing, based purely on last season's qualifications.
For starters, many clubs promoted in 2017/18 when the extra divisions at Step 3 and 4 were added did not receive the correct exemption last year. Surely now that will be corrected, and if so, then there will have to be less places and therefore less ties if more clubs get exemptions. That could wipe out almost every step 6 club from the competition, especially with further extra divisions being planned for 2020/21.
There are a couple of ways around this. They could throw all Step 4 clubs into the Extra-Prelim round along with Steps 5 and 6 which would enable there to be another 140 entrants, or bring the National League in at the 3q instead of the 4q. Alternatively, they could bring in another round at the lowest level; a sort of extra-extra-prelim which is contested by the lowest ranked clubs and increase the number of entries still further (albeit with an inevitable knock on effect onto the prize money). Maybe by scrapping replays in all rounds they could fit two rounds in the week where they used to have just one?
Either way, as a supporter of a club that last missed FA Cup entry in 1972 but finished eighth in Step 6 I am very, very worried.



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Dazzla84
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May 6, 2019, 3:47 AM

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Re: [E&E Fred] FA Cup 2019/20 - Subtle Step 6 Change! [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately

Well I think changes need to be made because when the new restructuring comes in after next season, there'll be even less spots available for Step 5 and 6, infact Step 6 would be shut out entirely

By my calculations, when the new Step 4 league comes in and the increase at Step 2 to 24 teams each happens, there'll only be 224 places available for teams below Step 4 meaning a total entry of 636,that means some Step 5 sides would miss out.

HOW IT WOULD WORK

EXTRA PRELIMINARY ROUND: 224 Step 5 sides, 112 to qualify
PRELIMINARY ROUND: 160 Step 4 sides enter, total of 272 clubs, 136 to qualify
QUALIFYING ROUND 1: 88 Step 3 sides enter, total of 224 clubs, 112 to qualify
QUALIFYING ROUND 2: 48 Step 2 sides enter, total of 160 clubs, 80 to qualify

And the same format would apply for the rest of the tournament beyond.

Lumping all 160 Step 4 sides in the Extra Preliminary Round could help as that would give two rounds to whittle down to the 136 needed to keep the same format from qualifying round 1 onwards. That means freeing up the entry to include all Step 5 sides and up to 108 from Step 6



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(This post was edited by Dazzla84 on May 6, 2019, 3:52 AM)


leohoenig
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May 6, 2019, 10:15 AM

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Re: [Dazzla84] FA Cup 2019/20 - Subtle Step 6 Change! [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately

The FA needs to rethink on the lines of "who do we want to admit", and then arrange the exemptions to allow that number of teams, rather than the reverse where the number of exemptions defines how many teams can be omitted.

Personally, I think they need to look at "the perfect pyramid" and work out the system so as every Step 6 team can enter the FA Cup



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Richard Rundle
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May 6, 2019, 3:07 PM

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Re: [leohoenig] FA Cup 2019/20 - Subtle Step 6 Change! [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately

Bringing the National League teams in one round earlier would solve many of the problems.


senmic198
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May 7, 2019, 7:37 AM

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Re: [SWP-Phil] FA Cup 2019/20 - Subtle Step 6 Change! [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately

Didn't it also previously state clubs that had not been in the vase or cup the year before could not apply. This text seems to have been removed too?

What step 6 clubs in top 10 of each division still cannot apply for whatever reason?


SWP-Phil
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May 7, 2019, 9:04 AM

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Re: [senmic198] FA Cup 2019/20 - Subtle Step 6 Change! [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately

The rule change makes NO mention of Top 3 or Top 4 - it says spaces given out to eligible clubs based on PPG - a 4th placed team with a better PPG than a club finishing 3rd would expect to get in based on the written rule change.



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Andy D
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May 7, 2019, 10:10 AM

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Re: [SWP-Phil] FA Cup 2019/20 - Subtle Step 6 Change! [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately


In Reply To
The rule change makes NO mention of Top 3 or Top 4 - it says spaces given out to eligible clubs based on PPG - a 4th placed team with a better PPG than a club finishing 3rd would expect to get in based on the written rule change.


I'm really not convinced about this PPG system for this, or even then play-offs (whatever the rights and wrongs of not having enough places). Seems to me that PPG penalises teams in a more competitive league and benefits clubs in leagues with a few decent teams an a lot of also rans.



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paulh66
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May 7, 2019, 11:27 AM

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Re: [Andy D] FA Cup 2019/20 - Subtle Step 6 Change! [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately

 
I'm really not convinced about this PPG system for this, or even then play-offs (whatever the rights and wrongs of not having enough places). Seems to me that PPG penalises teams in a more competitive league and benefits clubs in leagues with a few decent teams an a lot of also rans.


Exactly. Plus, if you're going to have ppg to decide qualification for anything, clubs (and fans) need to continuously be kept informed of that fact, plus where they stand in that pecking order at any moment in time. Just like we are with the more familiar means of deciding outcomes (e.g. league tables, qualification group tables etc) in football's meritocracy. Otherwise you just get confusion, as we saw across seven divisions in the playoffs and now across 19 divisions for FA Cup qualification. And it seems daft that clubs then have to wait weeks before knowing if they've qualified for the FA Cup, especially when all the step 6 leagues finish at virtually the same time - again, why can't this be done in real time?

It's surely a responsibility of the leagues and/or the FA (depending on the competition in question) to sharpen up communication and address these ppg confusions. Yet, so far, it seems to have been left to one or two enthusiasts with spreadsheets to do so via Twitter and Internet forums.


(This post was edited by paulh66 on May 7, 2019, 11:36 AM)


Brightside
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May 10, 2019, 2:53 PM

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Re: [Dazzla84] FA Cup 2019/20 - Subtle Step 6 Change! [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately


In Reply To
Well I think changes need to be made because when the new restructuring comes in after next season, there'll be even less spots available for Step 5 and 6, infact Step 6 would be shut out entirely

By my calculations, when the new Step 4 league comes in and the increase at Step 2 to 24 teams each happens, there'll only be 224 places available for teams below Step 4 meaning a total entry of 636,that means some Step 5 sides would miss out.

HOW IT WOULD WORK

EXTRA PRELIMINARY ROUND: 224 Step 5 sides, 112 to qualify
PRELIMINARY ROUND: 160 Step 4 sides enter, total of 272 clubs, 136 to qualify
QUALIFYING ROUND 1: 88 Step 3 sides enter, total of 224 clubs, 112 to qualify
QUALIFYING ROUND 2: 48 Step 2 sides enter, total of 160 clubs, 80 to qualify

And the same format would apply for the rest of the tournament beyond.

Lumping all 160 Step 4 sides in the Extra Preliminary Round could help as that would give two rounds to whittle down to the 136 needed to keep the same format from qualifying round 1 onwards. That means freeing up the entry to include all Step 5 sides and up to 108 from Step 6


2018 - 2019

Number of Fixtures Round Number of Clubs Clubs Remaining New Entries This Round Level
184 Extra Preliminary Round 368 736 → 552 368 Levels 9 & 10
160 Preliminary Round 320 552 → 392 136 Level 8
116 First Qualifying Round 232 392 → 276 72 Level 7
80 Second Qualifying Round 160 276 → 196 44 Level 6
40 Third Qualifying Round 80 196 → 156 0
32 Fourth Qualifying Round 64 156 → 124 24 Level 5
40 1st round 80 124 → 84 48 Levels 3 & 4
20 2nd round 40 84 → 64
32 3rd round 64 64 → 32 44 Levels 1 & 2
16 4th round 32 32 → 16
8 5th round 16 16 → 8
4 6th round 8 8 → 4
2 Semi 4 4 → 2
1 Final 2 2 → 1

2020-2021 with no changes to which rounds teams enter - Only 14 teams from each step 5 division could enter

Number of Fixtures Round Number of Clubs Clubs Remaining New Entries This Round Level
112 Extra Preliminary Round 224 616 → 504 224 Level 9
136 Preliminary Round 272 504 → 388 160 Level 8
112 First Qualifying Round 224 388 → 276 88 Level 7
80 Second Qualifying Round 160 276 → 196 48 Level 6
40 Third Qualifying Round 80 196 → 156 0 0
32 Fourth Qualifying Round 64 156 → 124 24 Level 5
40 1st round 80 124 → 84 48 Levels 3 & 4
20 2nd round 40 84 → 64
32 3rd round 64 64 → 32 44 Levels 1 & 2
16 4th round 32 32 → 16
8 5th round 16 16 → 8
4 6th round 8 8 → 4
2 Semi 4 4 → 2
1 Final 2 2 → 1

Your proposal - All Step 5 teams and 64 step 6 teams (4 ish per division)

Number of Fixtures Round Number of Clubs Clubs Remaining New Entries This Round Level
272 Extra Preliminary Round 544 776 → 504 544 Level 9
136 Preliminary Round 272 504 → 388 Level 8
112 First Qualifying Round 224 388 → 276 88 Level 7
80 Second Qualifying Round 160 276 → 196 48 Level 6
40 Third Qualifying Round 80 196 → 156 0
32 Fourth Qualifying Round 64 156 → 124 24 Level 5
40 1st round 80 124 → 84 48 Levels 3 & 4
20 2nd round 40 84 → 64
32 3rd round 64 64 → 32 44 Levels 1 & 2
16 4th round 32 32 → 16
8 5th round 16 16 → 8
4 6th round 8 8 → 4
2 Semi 4 4 → 2
1 Final 2 2 → 1



How 2020/2021 could look like (based on 2018/2019)

Non League Projections - 2020/21 - https://docs.google.com/...fAI/edit?usp=sharing

Step 1 - https://drive.google.com/...1zLX5Ju5&usp=sharing
Step 2 - https://drive.google.com/...REZzvDIU&usp=sharing
Step 3 - https://drive.google.com/...GYGtPp8H&usp=sharing
Step 4 - https://drive.google.com/...DJBN8cC-&usp=sharing
Alternative - https://drive.google.com/...vkdOju1Q&usp=sharing
Step 5 - https://drive.google.com/...I48iX_bL&usp=sharing
Step 6 - https://drive.google.com/...siBvGhTK&usp=sharing or https://drive.google.com/...pNmsB_JW&usp=sharing


BillShep
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May 10, 2019, 11:23 PM

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Re: [Brightside] FA Cup 2019/20 - Subtle Step 6 Change! [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately

This is from the online application page...

Entry Requirements

THE FA CUP

Clubs to be automatically accepted subject to the ground fully conforming to the minimum standard:-

- Clubs in the Premier League, English Football League and in Steps 1, 2, 3, 4 and 5 of The FA National League System.

Clubs to be accepted subject to available places and subject to the ground conforming to the minimum standard:-

- Clubs in Step 6 of The FA National League System.

In the event the competition is oversubscribed, places will be determined based on a club's points per game at Step 6 of The FA National League System in the previous season.

Clubs must also be participating in either The FA Trophy or FA Vase competitions in season 2019-20..................

It sounds to me that the FA are going to limit the amount of participants rather than allowing all who previously met criteria. Wasn't it something like Level 6 had to finish in the top 4 and not get promoted. As long as they had competed in the previous seasons FA Vase and the ground was suitable then they were in. The restructuring above obviously means different numbers of clubs enter the later rounds and the FA appear to have chosen to restrict the number of Level 6 entrants rather than use previous years criteria.
As others have already mentioned unless they have a different extra preliminary rounds procedure then Level 6 teams will be reduced even more for season 2020/21



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Ropemaker
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May 14, 2019, 8:20 PM

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Re: [BillShep] FA Cup 2019/20 - Subtle Step 6 Change! [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately


In Reply To
Clubs to be automatically accepted subject to the ground fully conforming to the minimum standard:-

- Clubs in the Premier League, English Football League and in Steps 1, 2, 3, 4 and 5 of The FA National League System.

Clubs to be accepted subject to available places and subject to the ground conforming to the minimum standard:-

- Clubs in Step 6 of The FA National League System.

In the event the competition is oversubscribed, places will be determined based on a club's points per game at Step 6 of The FA National League System in the previous season.

So does this effectively mean that clubs relegated from step 5 to step 6 are out of the FA Cup the following season? Or am I missing something?



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Philmobil
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May 28, 2019, 7:40 PM

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Re: [Ropemaker] FA Cup 2019/20 - Subtle Step 6 Change! [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately

I believe for the moment the FA are keen to maintain 736 entries in FA Cup.

This means there will be fewer Step 6 clubs, but it's worth remembering that just two years ago clubs that are now Step 5 due to the expansion of leagues at that level would still be Step 6 now if those changes had not been made.

In effect this means no-one misses out who would not have nissed out before, the only difference being that clubs will finish higher up a Step 6 league and not qualify and thereby feel more aggrieved to have missed.

Through my @FACupFactfile Twitter account I submitted proposals to increase the FA Cup entries based on the old non-league pyramid and I suspect that once the FA has achieved their perfect pyramid there will be a review of the number of clubs able to qualify.

Adjustments to when clubs are exempted, particularly National League and Championship entry, can significantly increase the number of spaces available.

I hope the FA choose to increase the number of entries, as since the year 2000, that is the only good thing they have done with the competition (gradually increasing the number of entries, that is).


ThornburyTom
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Jun 7, 2019, 9:56 AM

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Re: [Philmobil] FA Cup 2019/20 - Subtle Step 6 Change! [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately

Does anyone know when the teams accepted into the FA Cup will be announced?


tewey99
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Jun 7, 2019, 10:39 PM

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Re: [ThornburyTom] FA Cup 2019/20 - Subtle Step 6 Change! [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately

Week commencing 8th July ...


BillShep
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Jun 8, 2019, 11:03 AM

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Re: [tewey99] FA Cup 2019/20 - Subtle Step 6 Change! [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately

Round dates have been announced today.



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Latest new ground
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simonsm
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Re: [BillShep] FA Cup 2019/20 - Subtle Step 6 Change! [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately

I've been thinking if a better way to resolve the problem of wanting more clubs entering the FA Cup (eg more Step 6) without the earliest qualifying round being any sooner...

So I've looked at the US Open Cup and also the Coupe de France. In both these, they start the earliest qualifying rounds the previous season with a sort of local qualifying tournament to reach the next stage of the competition.

That seems unworkable here to have an April/May tournament when most seasons there is a big league game backlog.

So, this needs a bit of structure, but here is my basic idea:

There are about 45 relevant County FAs. How about the FA makes them all restructure their local County Cups so one exists just for Step 6 and Step 7 clubs to compete in against each other as County Cups generally are now. The winner of that County Cup is put forward to the FA as the FA Cup Qualifier for that local County FA.

That would spark interest in the County Cup and make it a cup worth winning.

I've not worked out the numbers, so it may be that the Top 1 or 2 maybe in each Step 6 can qualify automatically and the team that gets the furthest in the County Cup that hasn't qualified already can be entered as the Local FA Qualifier.

If a Step 7 club wins that doesn't have a suitable ground / floodlights, then they have to have agreed an alternative ground to play FA Cup ties on, or they can't be put forward.

I included Step 7 as otherwise it wouldn't be a useful County Cup to be in. In very sparse Step 6/7 areas, maybe there would need to be a joint county cup with a neighbouring FA, or maybe the numbers that qualify can vary for big and small County FAs.

I know it needs a bit of work, but that's how USA and France seem to do it, and it would spice up the County Cup at that level, as well as giving more clubs the FA Cup feeling without the need for more rounds.


MiddxSaint
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Jun 10, 2019, 9:03 AM

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Re: [simonsm] FA Cup 2019/20 - Subtle Step 6 Change! [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately

How about eight Championship clubs start at round 2 instead of round 3. This would give the mid-table clubs in this league something to play for towards the end of the season. It would enable eight extra ties in round 2, 16 in round 1 and ripple down through the qualifying rounds to possibly eliminate the extra preliminary round (can someone do the maths?).
One drawback could be the lowering the standard of refereeing with more games being played at once.


(This post was edited by MiddxSaint on Jun 10, 2019, 9:05 AM)


leohoenig
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Jun 10, 2019, 9:19 AM

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Re: [simonsm] FA Cup 2019/20 - Subtle Step 6 Change! [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately

I cannot comment on the US Open Cup as I have not looked into it, but I can correct you on the French Cup

Generally, this does not use games in the previous season, but two regions (Paris IDF and Grand Est) have chosen to do so for their own reasons

This may be a preference to playing the games in June to August. The leagues at the levels concerned do not play in August, so there can be player availability issues with a Cup game, followed by 2-3 weeks of inactivity if the game is lost.

I have not looked into detail on Friendlies, but I do not think the current English obsession with playing a massive pre-season list spreads to the continent.

France manages a vastly bigger competition on the same number of rounds as England. This is simply by reducing the number of exemptions at each level. National 3, 2 and 1 clubs get brought in at the 3rd, 4th and 5th rounds. The second division clubs come in at the 7th.

Hence, in the round at the start of January, the French equivalent of the English third round, only 20 of the 64 clubs have byes. That means 44 games in Round 8, 88 in Round 7.

Again only 20 clubs have byes to round 7 - plus of course 11 places for Outre Mer clubs who have been playing earlier rounds within their own territories, so 145 games in Metropolitan France in Round 6, 290 in Round 5

---------------------------------------------------------------------

The picture Simon suggests is atually more akin to the German Pokal

The Pokal starts with 64 clubs. These automatically include the 36 members of the Bundesliga and the 2. Bundesliga and the top four from the previous season's 3. Liga. (This means promoted clubs and relegated clubs are included).

The other 24 places are given to the 21 Lander, mainly as the winners of the local cup. Three Lander, (those with the highest number of clubs - Westphalia, Bayern and Niedersachsen get an extra place).

For the full list of qualifyers, I refer you to wiki
https://en.wikipedia.org/...E2%80%9320_DFB-Pokal

In theory, this can go back one step more. Most of the Lander also have a number of Kreispokal or district cups for teams that do not play in the main cup and in some (maybe all, I have never checked), the winners get moved to the upper cup the next season. Hence you have the unlikely scenaro where a very low team wins a district cup in 2018-19, the Landerspokal in 2019-20 and hence enters the German Cup in 2020-21



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MiddxSaint
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Re: [MiddxSaint] FA Cup 2019/20 - Subtle Step 6 Change! [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately


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How about eight Championship clubs start at round 2 instead of round 3. This would give the mid-table clubs in this league something to play for towards the end of the season. It would enable eight extra ties in round 2, 16 in round 1 and ripple down through the qualifying rounds to possibly eliminate the extra preliminary round (can someone do the maths?).
One drawback could be the lowering the standard of refereeing with more games being played at once.


Done the maths....


Round - entrants - consisting of
Finalists 2 winners of Semi finalists
Semi finalists 4 winners of Quarter finalists
Quarter finalists 8 winners of 5th
5th 16 winners of 4th
4th 32 winners of 3rd
3rd 64 20 Premier, 16 Championship plus 28 winners from 2nd
2nd 56 8 Championship plus 48 winners from 1st
1st 96 48 Div 1 & 2 plus 48 winners from 4Q
4Q 96 24 National plus 72 winners from 3Q
3Q 144 winners of 2Q
2Q 288 44 National N+S plus 244 winners of 1Q
1Q 488 88 level 7 plus 400 winners of Prelim
Prelim 800

Is 800 enough for levels 8 & 9?


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Chelsea Transfer Target

Jun 10, 2019, 12:04 PM

Posts: 4477
Location: Huntingdonshire
Team(s): Brentford, Bradford City, Peterborough United, Yaxley

Post #25 of 30 (2298 views)
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Re: [simonsm] FA Cup 2019/20 - Subtle Step 6 Change! [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately

It would certainly find favour amongst clubs affiliated to the Huntingdonshire FA. I believe there would be five eligible to take part in a Step 6/7 competition. A nice shortcut to the prize money!

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