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Next Prime Minister?

 

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Yatesman
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Jun 21, 2019, 1:19 PM

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Post #176 of 313 (998 views)
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Re: [jon b] Next Prime Minister? [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately


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Yes language and it's origins, usage and continuing change is fascinating.

For instance there are individuals who for some reason seem to want to shoehorn Latin phrases unnecessarily into their speech.

Maybe they think these phrases fall naturally into the context in which they're being used. Or maybe it's because they want to display their "learning" (generally acquired expensively at public school).

As someone who many moons ago studied Latin (not at Eton or suchlike Cool), I understand the phrases being used but not why any normal human being would want to use them rather than the equally appropriate modern English equivalents.

It is amusing to see some prominent Little Englanders readily use Latin phrases when that is the language of the first European wide empire.

.


It's your condescending conclusion that these people are 'Little Englanders' that is at fault.
Little Englander is a fault ridden lazy left stereotype that really has no place in a serious discussion.
People use Latin because it sounds beautiful and can often be more incisive.
Theres nothing to gain politically by denigrating people using Latin if they like to.


Yatesman
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Jun 21, 2019, 1:22 PM

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Post #177 of 313 (995 views)
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The origin of dialect / language is fascinating.

There is a distinction to be drawn between genuine dialects such as Shetland, Lallans and Doric which can be almost unrecognisable to Anglicised ears, and slang. The origins of these are often old Norse, Celtic, Gaelic or Brittonic.

Modern Scots slang, as opposed to dialect, does have many bastardisations of English terms. However, it also includes elements of older influences and other influences such as Scottish Travelling People and recent migrants to Scotland.

This list includes examples of all of these, but also includes terms which are certainly not unique to Scotland.

https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/Appendix:Glossary_of_Scottish_slang_and_jargon


I agree....one of the nice things about living in Scotland is that the dialects and slang is in such wide and common usage and is a direct link to our historical past.
It's something that has been lost to much of Southern England.


PaulC
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Jun 21, 2019, 2:12 PM

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Post #178 of 313 (972 views)
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Re: [windydcfc] Next Prime Minister? [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately


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I watched a program a few years back about the roots of English accents in England. There are 3 variants: Norse, Saxon & Norman. In the north (Danelaw) the reason we pronounce Path, Grass, Glass instead of how it is pronounced in the south(Saxon) Parth, Grrazz, Glarzz. The reason upper class people speak the way they do isn’t because they are speaking posh, it’s because it has historical roots in Norman.


Another distinction is between Scots pronunciation (and very northern English) and English which arises from the Great Vowel Shift in Middle English (1350-1700).

Pre-GVS the pronunciation of the modern English words "house", "brown" , 'town' "cow," "down" "now" approximated to hoose, broon, toon, coo, doon noo. In English the vowel sound shifted, but not in Scots.

The same with the vowel sound in English stone, home, bone. Old English was stane, hame, bane,

And of course the Middle English "hw" sound in "which", "when", "what" has disappeared in English, but not Scots. I'm always alarmed when I hear an English newsreader report the sighting of Wales in the Thames.

Scots pronunciation and vocabulary also owes a lot to Scandinavian languages. If you watch the Saturday night Scandi-noir series you can hear whole sentences which are almost pure Scots;

Hus - hoose (house)
Ut -oot (out)
Efter - efter (after)
brenne - burn (stream)
flytta - to flit (move house)
gråte - to greet (cry)
bra - braw (excellent)
full - fu (to be drunk)
sten - stane (stone)
barn - bairn (child)
kvinne - quine (girl/woman)
kikke - keek (to peek)
morgen - morn (tomorrow)
stoev - stoor (dust)
stoevsuger - (stoor sooker)
man - man (husband)
dykke - dook (submerge)
ojne - een (eyes)
kjenne - ken (to know)


(This post was edited by PaulC on Jun 21, 2019, 2:16 PM)


PaulC
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Jun 21, 2019, 2:14 PM

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Post #179 of 313 (971 views)
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Re: [Yatesman] Next Prime Minister? [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately


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Theres nothing to gain politically by denigrating people using Latin if they like to.


Bur feel free to denigrate Scots using the Scots leid in the parliament they have been elected to.


Yatesman
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Jun 21, 2019, 3:30 PM

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Post #180 of 313 (928 views)
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Re: [PaulC] Next Prime Minister? [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately


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In Reply To
Theres nothing to gain politically by denigrating people using Latin if they like to.


Bur feel free to denigrate Scots using the Scots leid in the parliament they have been elected to.


It's not the language used it's their belief that they've done something subversive when they do.....its petty I wish they would use their time constructively for the people of Scotland rather than scoring points in a game no one else is playing or thinks useful.
But hey ho!


Yatesman
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Jun 21, 2019, 3:46 PM

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Post #181 of 313 (919 views)
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Re: [PaulC] Next Prime Minister? [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately


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I watched a program a few years back about the roots of English accents in England. There are 3 variants: Norse, Saxon & Norman. In the north (Danelaw) the reason we pronounce Path, Grass, Glass instead of how it is pronounced in the south(Saxon) Parth, Grrazz, Glarzz. The reason upper class people speak the way they do isn’t because they are speaking posh, it’s because it has historical roots in Norman.


Another distinction is between Scots pronunciation (and very northern English) and English which arises from the Great Vowel Shift in Middle English (1350-1700).

Pre-GVS the pronunciation of the modern English words "house", "brown" , 'town' "cow," "down" "now" approximated to hoose, broon, toon, coo, doon noo. In English the vowel sound shifted, but not in Scots.

The same with the vowel sound in English stone, home, bone. Old English was stane, hame, bane,

And of course the Middle English "hw" sound in "which", "when", "what" has disappeared in English, but not Scots. I'm always alarmed when I hear an English newsreader report the sighting of Wales in the Thames.

Scots pronunciation and vocabulary also owes a lot to Scandinavian languages. If you watch the Saturday night Scandi-noir series you can hear whole sentences which are almost pure Scots;

Hus - hoose (house)
Ut -oot (out)
Efter - efter (after)
brenne - burn (stream)
flytta - to flit (move house)
gråte - to greet (cry)
bra - braw (excellent)
full - fu (to be drunk)
sten - stane (stone)
barn - bairn (child)
kvinne - quine (girl/woman)
kikke - keek (to peek)
morgen - morn (tomorrow)
stoev - stoor (dust)
stoevsuger - (stoor sooker)
man - man (husband)
dykke - dook (submerge)
ojne - een (eyes)
kjenne - ken (to know)


Yes very interesting .
I watch the Scandi Noir like Dicte, Crime Reporter and if I close my eyes it's like being in Hawick !!!! Seriously!

I remember growing up in Bristol and people would say .
'Alrite, how bis?

Or use bissn't, cassn't, oudst and so on..

Not so much now.


PaulC
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Jun 21, 2019, 3:52 PM

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Post #182 of 313 (910 views)
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Re: [Yatesman] Next Prime Minister? [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately


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I remember growing up in Bristol and people would say .
'Alrite, how bis?

Or use bissn't, cassn't, oudst and so on..

Not so much now.


My father would use "hoo" for 'she'. Old English "heo", Middle English "hoo".


steve walker
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Jun 21, 2019, 6:44 PM

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Post #183 of 313 (864 views)
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Re: [PaulC] Next Prime Minister? [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately

To actually get back on topic, make another thread if you want to discuss dialects..... this 'contest' is a complete sham. It will end with Johnson as PM and Hunt as Chancellor. It's already decided between the two of them, Johnson made sure to lend out a few votes to Hunt to avoid a messy battle with Gove.
It's so transparent it's laughable.


paulh66
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Jun 21, 2019, 7:16 PM

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Re: [steve walker] Next Prime Minister? [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately

It's 300 Tory MPs doing what they think is best for their party, no more than that. It'd certainly be laughable if they'd chosen a course of action that'd lead to more turmoil for them. Although I think Johnson's team may have lent votes to Hunt to give Johnson the best chance of winning amongst the membership, not just to avoid a messy showdown.


steve walker
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Re: [paulh66] Next Prime Minister? [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately

Really? can you imagine the Press free for all in a Johnson v Gove contest given past history?
Yes the Tory MPs are doing what they think is best for their party with no regard for what's best for the country. Johnsons reign as PM will be very short and I don't think that will bother him for one moment, he's just ticked another box on his list. Then him and his Dad will carry on earning a living from dubious hedge funds and all will be as normal.
Johnson will be PM and Hunt will be announced as Chancellor. It's a done deal.


PaulC
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Jun 21, 2019, 8:01 PM

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Re: [steve walker] Next Prime Minister? [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately

"Police were called to the home of Boris Johnson and his partner, Carrie Symonds, in the early hours of Friday morning after neighbours heard a loud altercation involving screaming, shouting and banging.

The argument could be heard outside the property where the potential future prime minister is living with Symonds, a former Conservative party head of press.

A neighbour told the Guardian they heard a woman screaming followed by “slamming and banging”. At one point Symonds could be heard telling Johnson to “get off me” and “get out of my flat”.'''"

https://www.theguardian.com/...-boris-johnsons-home


paulh66
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Jun 21, 2019, 8:07 PM

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Post #187 of 313 (824 views)
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Really? can you imagine the Press free for all in a Johnson v Gove contest given past history?


Yes, which is why I said it'd be laughable if they'd voted to expose themselves to that.

By extension they - like MPs in any other party - will believe that what's best for the party IS best for the country. Put another way, I'm not sure they've sacrificed the country's best interests by the choice they've left themselves rather than some other candidate.

Hardly inspiring, I agree. Looks to me like a seriously dysfunctional party desperately trying to patch itself up enough to see off an utterly hapless opposition when the inevitable election is called. Can't wait for that..Crazy


Yatesman
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Jun 21, 2019, 9:07 PM

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Post #188 of 313 (793 views)
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Re: [PaulC] Next Prime Minister? [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately


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In Reply To
I watched a program a few years back about the roots of English accents in England. There are 3 variants: Norse, Saxon & Norman. In the north (Danelaw) the reason we pronounce Path, Grass, Glass instead of how it is pronounced in the south(Saxon) Parth, Grrazz, Glarzz. The reason upper class people speak the way they do isn’t because they are speaking posh, it’s because it has historical roots in Norman.


Another distinction is between Scots pronunciation (and very northern English) and English which arises from the Great Vowel Shift in Middle English (1350-1700).

Pre-GVS the pronunciation of the modern English words "house", "brown" , 'town' "cow," "down" "now" approximated to hoose, broon, toon, coo, doon noo. In English the vowel sound shifted, but not in Scots.

The same with the vowel sound in English stone, home, bone. Old English was stane, hame, bane,

And of course the Middle English "hw" sound in "which", "when", "what" has disappeared in English, but not Scots. I'm always alarmed when I hear an English newsreader report the sighting of Wales in the Thames.

Scots pronunciation and vocabulary also owes a lot to Scandinavian languages. If you watch the Saturday night Scandi-noir series you can hear whole sentences which are almost pure Scots;

Hus - hoose (house)
Ut -oot (out)
Efter - efter (after)
brenne - burn (stream)
flytta - to flit (move house)
gråte - to greet (cry)
bra - braw (excellent)
full - fu (to be drunk)
sten - stane (stone)
barn - bairn (child)
kvinne - quine (girl/woman)
kikke - keek (to peek)
morgen - morn (tomorrow)
stoev - stoor (dust)
stoevsuger - (stoor sooker)
man - man (husband)
dykke - dook (submerge)
ojne - een (eyes)
kjenne - ken (to know)


Ok last word on this but I tested my partner on the few words there that I hadn't heard used myself....
een, keek , quine and fu ( all the others are commonly used here) She didn't know quine but knew the rest.
Also they say 'hawf' for house and in Hawick they'll say mi and yow for me and you and 'oo' for we is common in the borders.


jon b
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Jun 21, 2019, 10:18 PM

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Post #189 of 313 (769 views)
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Re: [PaulC] Next Prime Minister? [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately


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"Police were called to the home of Boris Johnson and his partner, Carrie Symonds, in the early hours of Friday morning after neighbours heard a loud altercation involving screaming, shouting and banging.

The argument could be heard outside the property where the potential future prime minister is living with Symonds, a former Conservative party head of press.

A neighbour told the Guardian they heard a woman screaming followed by “slamming and banging”. At one point Symonds could be heard telling Johnson to “get off me” and “get out of my flat”.'''"

https://www.theguardian.com/...-boris-johnsons-home


Well the good news is that if they have such a screaming match when in they're in No.10, there'll be a policeman already at hand, outside the front door.


I suppose it's a reminder that even at this late stage there is one man who can still derail Johnson's leadership campaign, and it isn't Jeremy Hunt.

.


Yatesman
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Jun 21, 2019, 11:42 PM

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Post #190 of 313 (743 views)
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Re: [jon b] Next Prime Minister? [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately


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In Reply To
"Police were called to the home of Boris Johnson and his partner, Carrie Symonds, in the early hours of Friday morning after neighbours heard a loud altercation involving screaming, shouting and banging.

The argument could be heard outside the property where the potential future prime minister is living with Symonds, a former Conservative party head of press.

A neighbour told the Guardian they heard a woman screaming followed by “slamming and banging”. At one point Symonds could be heard telling Johnson to “get off me” and “get out of my flat”.'''"

https://www.theguardian.com/...-boris-johnsons-home


Well the good news is that if they have such a screaming match when in they're in No.10, there'll be a policeman already at hand, outside the front door.


I suppose it's a reminder that even at this late stage there is one man who can still derail Johnson's leadership campaign, and it isn't Jeremy Hunt.

.


I agree but it's hard to deny that the whole metropolitan media eite in both London and Glasgow are waging a vicious and sustained campaign to undermine Johnson's credibility in any way possible
Long gone is the pretence of reporting 'NEWS' and well entrenched is the agenda for manipulating public opinion

Such a shame........and not because I'm a fan of Johnson but because I'm a fan of media impartiality.

First order of business for Johnson if he becomes PM is to break up the BBC, I should think !!


KnowYourMarket
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Jun 22, 2019, 6:37 AM

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Re: [Yatesman] Next Prime Minister? [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately

Media impartiality in this country?LaughLaughLaughLaugh

An agenda led by newspapers that no-one reads. TV/radio has hours to fill and turns to the printed media for ideas.

Constant droning on about stuff and brow beating you into believing something.



Last ground visited(update requested by Spud): Wellington . New grounds 18/19: 38


Richard Rundle
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Post #192 of 313 (688 views)
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I agree but it's hard to deny that the whole metropolitan media eite in both London and Glasgow are waging a vicious and sustained campaign to undermine Johnson's credibility in any way possible


Eh? Johnson is a prime member of that whole "metropolitan media elite" of which you speak.


leohoenig
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Re: [Richard Rundle] Next Prime Minister? [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately

Does Johnson write for the Telegraph?
Certainly the paper has appeared to support its campaign, and yet it still gave headlines to this story - as did every other paper in the country



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kirby knitters
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Does Johnson write for the Telegraph?
Certainly the paper has appeared to support its campaign, and yet it still gave headlines to this story - as did every other paper in the country

Does a weekly column for the Telegraph and paid £275K a year for doing so.


Yatesman
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Jun 22, 2019, 8:56 AM

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Post #195 of 313 (635 views)
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I agree but it's hard to deny that the whole metropolitan media eite in both London and Glasgow are waging a vicious and sustained campaign to undermine Johnson's credibility in any way possible


Eh? Johnson is a prime member of that whole "metropolitan media elite" of which you speak.


He's a columnist ,that's true, but no longer a journalist.

I was primarily referring to the TV media , which are blatantly 'out to stop him'

The print media is split down partisan lines , although the furore over his spat with his partner shows what happens when you swim with sharks.

Funnily enough its all only relevant in respect of how it plays out with the Party membership.........That's the big unknown factor in all this .


007Dale
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Re: [Yatesman] Next Prime Minister? [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately

It’s one of those big headlines, no story stories. A couple have an argument in the confines of their own house.

Strange though that the ‘neighbour’ who recorded it and sent for the police went to the Guardian of all the newspapers.

I suspect if you scratch beneath the surface, they’ll be connected to the newspaper and basically listening out for anything that’s going on.

That said, Boris should be keeping himself spotless at the minute.


PaulC
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Jun 22, 2019, 12:06 PM

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It’s one of those big headlines, no story stories. A couple have an argument in the confines of their own house.


Johnson's team places him under house arrest for virtually the whole campaign and he still manages to blow it.

You really have to hand it to him!

What next - a fact-finding trip to North Korea for the rest of his non-campaign?


jon b
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It’s one of those big headlines, no story stories. A couple have an argument in the confines of their own house.

Strange though that the ‘neighbour’ who recorded it and sent for the police went to the Guardian of all the newspapers.

I suspect if you scratch beneath the surface, they’ll be connected to the newspaper and basically listening out for anything that’s going on.

That said, Boris should be keeping himself spotless at the minute.


I think that's slightly over the top in terms of a conspiracy theory.

The story is, of course, a nonsense. A couple have a screaming/shouting/banging doors row. Wow. Couples never row do they? Crazy

As you say, it's the behaviour of the neighbour in involving the police that is interesting, in that it gives the media the magic word "police" to put in the headlines. I suspect that it's a case of a neighbour with no love for Johnson or his politics jumping at the chance to record a fiery bust-up and then having the bright idea of adding the police to the mix.

Naturally, "The Guardian" were interested in the story, but as you can see from today's headlines, so were all the other papers. Stories about Johnson sell newspapers. The "Mail Online", that bastion of the right, was already running a detailed story about his wives, mistresses and how many children he acknowledges as fathering. Whatever his faults, in media terms, Johnson isn't boring.

Actually, if you're looking for something underhand happening, that "Mail Online" feature on his wives/mistresses etc seems to have now completely disappeared!

Following the story breaking last night I was intrigued by the fact that newspaper sites were running with it earlier and harder than the BBC. I think the Beeb know Brexiters have already taken against them and are nervous of looking like they're anti Boris.

I doubt whether it'll impact on Johnson's chances of becoming PM. I'd have thought that like Trump in the States, his supporters have come to expect, and make allowance for, the bizarre.

.


PaulC
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Jun 22, 2019, 6:15 PM

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Re: [jon b] Next Prime Minister? [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately

Johnson was very definitely a poor second to Hunt at today's hustings in Birmigham.

The revelation last night is certainly highly relevant. The character of the candidates should be a major factor in deciding who should lead the party.

Johnson is a charlatan, a liar, an egotist, a sociopath and a facilitator of an assault on a journalist .

As was stated in the report from his Eton housemaster;

"I think he honestly believes it is churlish of us not to regard him as an exception, one who should be free of the network of obligation which binds everyone else’. "

In addition to the domestic rumpus he was involved in, it struck me that a further indication of his character was the fact his car was parked outside with an assortment of parking tickets on it.

A neighbour stated “It’s got loads of parking tickets on it. He just leaves it here. He doesn’t care.”

He just doesn't care about social responsibilities - like many tories, he thinks laws and rules are for the little people.


(This post was edited by PaulC on Jun 22, 2019, 6:16 PM)


jon b
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The revelation last night is certainly highly relevant. The character of the candidates should be a major factor in deciding who should lead the party.

Johnson is a charlatan, a liar, an egotist, a sociopath and a facilitator of an assault on a journalist .


True. But the row didn't reveal his utter unfitness for high office, all the evidence was well known already.

And to a majority of Tory members it appears it just doesn't matter.

What matters to them is that he was one of the leaders of the Leave campaign and was twice elected Mayor of London. Leave credentials and electoral success.

The recent yougov survey seems to indicate that the members are wholly focused on two linked issues, Brexit and Farage. If the survey accurately reflects the current mood, the members are willing to sacrifice almost everything else.

.

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