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Home: Non-League Football Discussion: General Discussion:
Evo Stik Unstuck

 

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Beano
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Aug 9, 2019, 10:21 AM

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Post #126 of 162 (5237 views)
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Re: [Riverside64] Evo Stik Unstuck [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately

I don't think we are. I copied and pasted from the FAQ myself.

It's possible that each League may have tweaked the document slightly; the version I have came from the NPL so filming is definitely mandatory in the North. Ladderman's comments earlier in the thread suggest that something is happening in the Isthmian League in this area but I'm not close enough to that to comment.


paulh66
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Aug 9, 2019, 11:00 AM

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Post #127 of 162 (5176 views)
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Re: [Beano] Evo Stik Unstuck [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately

Lots of mention of the FA in here but to what extent is the FA behind any of this? Surely it's the leagues (and people employed by the leagues) who've agreed this sponsorship deal and all the baggage that goes with it, so what's stopping the clubs from holding them to account?


Beano
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Aug 9, 2019, 11:12 AM

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Post #128 of 162 (5159 views)
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Re: [paulh66] Evo Stik Unstuck [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately

In terms of the sponsorship itself, yes, that is down to the Leagues and not The FA.

The discussion has branched out a bit and we're almost talking about the 'unintended consequences' of the sponsorship, in terms of potential issues around alienating volunteers and creating a personnel issue for clubs.

I think that both Phil and myself (in particular) were touching on wider points that affect the non-league game at all levels, which is why The FA got mentioned. After all, it is the governing body which set the rules within which the Leagues must operate and it also allocates the clubs to those competitions.

It is also The FA who - via their regulations and IT platforms - create the environment in which volunteers operate. If that environment becomes too hard to work in, people will stop doing it. I think that's why they came in to the conversation.


paulh66
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Aug 9, 2019, 11:27 AM

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Post #129 of 162 (5134 views)
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Re: [Beano] Evo Stik Unstuck [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately

Cheers Beano, that's generally what I thought.
But I'm still curious about how this sponsorship deal - given the controversy it's attracted, the burdens it's creating with apparently minimal financial benefit to the clubs etc - seems to have been agreed by the leagues with little accountability back to the clubs.


SWP-Phil
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Aug 9, 2019, 11:47 AM

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Post #130 of 162 (5103 views)
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Re: [Beano] Evo Stik Unstuck [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately


In Reply To
In terms of the sponsorship itself, yes, that is down to the Leagues and not The FA.

The discussion has branched out a bit and we're almost talking about the 'unintended consequences' of the sponsorship, in terms of potential issues around alienating volunteers and creating a personnel issue for clubs.

I think that both Phil and myself (in particular) were touching on wider points that affect the non-league game at all levels, which is why The FA got mentioned. After all, it is the governing body which set the rules within which the Leagues must operate and it also allocates the clubs to those competitions.

It is also The FA who - via their regulations and IT platforms - create the environment in which volunteers operate. If that environment becomes too hard to work in, people will stop doing it. I think that's why they came in to the conversation.


Fully agree Beano - It's the drip, drip of (over) regulation, no matter whether it comes from FA, County FA or Leagues



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Riverside64
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Aug 9, 2019, 12:15 PM

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Post #131 of 162 (5051 views)
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Re: [Bigaitch] Evo Stik Unstuck [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately


In Reply To
I don't think we are. I copied and pasted from the FAQ myself.

It's possible that each League may have tweaked the document slightly; the version I have came from the NPL so filming is definitely mandatory in the North. Ladderman's comments earlier in the thread suggest that something is happening in the Isthmian League in this area but I'm not close enough to that to comment.


Ahh ok, that makes sense. There are some rules in the Isthmian around publication and use of videos but we're not yet mandated to produce them.


In Reply To
One thing that is bugging me however is Pitchero; Why is it everything has to be run via them? Stinks of backhanders taking place.


The Pitchero league websites are generally pretty good if you can put up with the adverts and videos. The club websites however are something entirely different but then again if clubs don't have the resources to manage or update a website then Pitchero serves a purpose.

As it stands, we wouldn't go back to Pitchero because of the intrusive nature of their sponsored content, their adverts (minimum of 4 on the home page) and their videos along with the lack of control of content and the lack of customisability. But, just to have an online presence is good enough for a lot of clubs.


(This post was edited by Riverside64 on Aug 9, 2019, 12:18 PM)


paulh66
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Aug 9, 2019, 12:29 PM

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Post #132 of 162 (5009 views)
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Re: [SWP-Phil] Evo Stik Unstuck [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately


In Reply To

In Reply To
In terms of the sponsorship itself, yes, that is down to the Leagues and not The FA.

The discussion has branched out a bit and we're almost talking about the 'unintended consequences' of the sponsorship, in terms of potential issues around alienating volunteers and creating a personnel issue for clubs.

I think that both Phil and myself (in particular) were touching on wider points that affect the non-league game at all levels, which is why The FA got mentioned. After all, it is the governing body which set the rules within which the Leagues must operate and it also allocates the clubs to those competitions.

It is also The FA who - via their regulations and IT platforms - create the environment in which volunteers operate. If that environment becomes too hard to work in, people will stop doing it. I think that's why they came in to the conversation.


Fully agree Beano - It's the drip, drip of (over) regulation, no matter whether it comes from FA, County FA or Leagues


Nevertheless, if the league itself decides to accept sponsorship from a betting company, the league is surely accountable for that decision, and the impact it has, to its member clubs. Conversely, if clubs are not holding the league to account for its decisions, can't an argument be made that the clubs themselves are letting down their volunteers?


ladderman
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Aug 9, 2019, 4:31 PM

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Post #133 of 162 (4801 views)
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Re: [paulh66] Evo Stik Unstuck [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately


In Reply To
Cheers Beano, that's generally what I thought.
But I'm still curious about how this sponsorship deal - given the controversy it's attracted, the burdens it's creating with apparently minimal financial benefit to the clubs etc - seems to have been agreed by the leagues with little accountability back to the clubs.

This
The aount of extra cash over the glue money really can't be worth all the grief that being sponsored by a betting company simply can't be worth the effort. The clubs were certainly never told the level of grief the BevVictor deal would br bring, and I'm pretty sure they never voted on it


ladderman
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Aug 9, 2019, 5:16 PM

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Post #134 of 162 (4765 views)
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Re: [Beano] Evo Stik Unstuck [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately


In Reply To
I don't think we are. I copied and pasted from the FAQ myself.

It's possible that each League may have tweaked the document slightly; the version I have came from the NPL so filming is definitely mandatory in the North. Ladderman's comments earlier in the thread suggest that something is happening in the Isthmian League in this area but I'm not close enough to that to comment.

I'm told filming remains optional in the Isthmian. Obviously we have a cameraman, well we do until the league and pitchero really piss him off.


hawkwind
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Aug 11, 2019, 11:48 PM

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Post #135 of 162 (4209 views)
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Re: [DonQuixote] Evo Stik Unstuck [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately


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...and just to really fan the flames

Leagues and clubs to NEVER tag BetVictor in tweets or FB/IG posts or link directly to
http://betvictor.com . Apparently the repercussions are severe

they cite a case with Spurs and WilliamHill

This ain't gonna end well methinks


I have just spent five minutes surfing. In that time I have looked at the websites of Brentford, Charlton Athletic, Fulham, Millwall and QPR. Apart from Charlton Athletic I was able to connect to at least one betting site directly from the football club site.

If it's OK for Level Two clubs then it must be perfectly legal, mustn't it?


Hendonboy
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Aug 12, 2019, 11:30 AM

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Post #136 of 162 (4013 views)
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Re: [hawkwind] Evo Stik Unstuck [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately


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I have just spent five minutes surfing. In that time I have looked at the websites of Brentford, Charlton Athletic, Fulham, Millwall and QPR. Apart from Charlton Athletic I was able to connect to at least one betting site directly from the football club site.

If it's OK for Level Two clubs then it must be perfectly legal, mustn't it?


It's legal to advertise betting companies from club websites, social media, programmes and suchlike. However, it's not legal to include people who are under 25 or look under 25 in such communications.

I assume that to minimise the likelihood of flouting this law BetVictor and the leagues have decided a blanket ban on links from football club social media is the easiest way forward - it potentially would only take one volunteer making an innocent mistake to see BetVictor and the relevant football club on the wrong end of the ASA.


boyspen
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Aug 15, 2019, 9:29 PM

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Post #137 of 162 (3470 views)
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Re: [Beano] Evo Stik Unstuck [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately


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Loathe as I am to side with authority, I think I'm with them on this occasion however. Aside from whether it's something worth insiting on (which is certainly debatable), if the leagues or FA or whoever want to insist that clubs to film games, if you're playing at Step 3 then unless you've just hit some recent financial hardship, it's surely easily affordable? A separate issue is whether many clubs at step 3 have a sensible balance between the percentage of income spent on players' wages versus other stuff, and on that score I'd say the majority are very much out of sync with reality. But if they can afford step 3 wages, then I reckon they can easily afford a small buget for the media side of things if it makes the league or FA happy.


I'll take your point about 'Step 3 wages' as I have no idea what the going rate is at Step 3 these days; both Ashford and Prescot are at Step 4. For me though, it is about more than the money aspect. It is about the fact that yet another mandatory task has been added to the matchday burden largely borne by volunteers.

Why has videoing matches become compulsory now and are there any restrictions on how and when clubs can use the footage they are producing? There certainly are in the National League, where volunteers are being threatened with sanctions for publishing their own work before Pitchero have finished playing with it.

I don't volunteer to "keep the league and FA happy" as you put it, although there's obviously an element of that involved. I do it because I enjoy being part of something bigger. At the moment, it is hard to derive that enjoyment. I'm ten days away from my first competitive programme of the season going to print and I don't have the high resolution artwork for the five pages of compulsory adverts. I've spent hours going through compliance documents and tweaking how websites work to meet the new regulations. Plus there's new restrictions on how clubs can publish photos on their websites.

This is supposed to be my hobby!

I think we're both coming from the same starting place, just that I see many clubs nowadays chasing each 'step up' in the pyramid and assuming that if they can afford the wage bill then everything else will fall into place via volunteers. So I think clubs in general need to look after their volunteers more, and as they move into Step 3 or National League, either take more responsibility for their volunteers or accept that they may need to have more paid positions behind the scenes. It's probably going to be a trade-off, because it'd be a shame if people who wanted to do stuff like filming games free of charge and other stuff they enjoyed were then put off due to league whip-cracking. But I also feel that clubs who are paying multiples of four figures per game in wages, can't argue legimately that they don't have the resources to produce a video, if that's one of the hoops that the league want them to jump through.
I would also say the same goes for other media such as programmes and websites - by all means have it done by volunteers, but as a club oversee how they're run and take the responsibility for them, whether through a club secretary, volunteer co-ordinator, or actually pay people to do them - it'd still be a fraction of what the player wage bill is each week.
That aside, the strictness now being applied on videos, programmes, websites etc also seems harsh, and in danger of backfiring on those who are bringing in the regulations.



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Beano
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Aug 15, 2019, 10:23 PM

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Post #138 of 162 (3429 views)
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Re: [boyspen] Evo Stik Unstuck [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately


In Reply To
I think we're both coming from the same starting place, just that I see many clubs nowadays chasing each 'step up' in the pyramid and assuming that if they can afford the wage bill then everything else will fall into place via volunteers. So I think clubs in general need to look after their volunteers more, and as they move into Step 3 or National League, either take more responsibility for their volunteers or accept that they may need to have more paid positions behind the scenes. It's probably going to be a trade-off, because it'd be a shame if people who wanted to do stuff like filming games free of charge and other stuff they enjoyed were then put off due to league whip-cracking. But I also feel that clubs who are paying multiples of four figures per game in wages, can't argue legimately that they don't have the resources to produce a video, if that's one of the hoops that the league want them to jump through.


I don't disagree with you in principle. The two clubs that I care about are certainly not paying out the kind of money you allude to and I don't think either would ever be in a position to.

Prescot do actually have a volunteer filming games and putting highlights out via a club YouTube channel, so I suppose Cables would be in a better position than many Step 4 clubs to comply with this directive in the event of gaining promotion. That's not really my issue, though. What irritates me about the edict from the NPL is that it has appears to have been sneaked 'under the radar', as it were.


In Reply To
I would also say the same goes for other media such as programmes and websites - by all means have it done by volunteers, but as a club oversee how they're run and take the responsibility for them, whether through a club secretary, volunteer co-ordinator, or actually pay people to do them - it'd still be a fraction of what the player wage bill is each week.
That aside, the strictness now being applied on videos, programmes, websites etc also seems harsh, and in danger of backfiring on those who are bringing in the regulations.


Your last sentence strikes at the heart of my point.

I had a email exchange with an officer of the NPL last week where it took that individual three messages to clarify for me that the BetVictor logo has to be positioned in the bottom right-hand corner of the programme cover (and nowhere else). The reason it took three emails for this to become clear was their first message simply referred me to the six pages of instructions pertaining to programmes. This is a different document to the 8 pages of FAQs discussed elsewhere on this thread, meaning that I have some 14 pages of additional directives and instructions to comply with

When I asked whether we had to exactly follow the example image provided (which was from a Southern League club), the reply was that "the guidance is in the document". Which it wasn't. There was a picture, but no stipulation that this was exactly what we were supposed to do. So, I explained this to the League Official who came back to me with "we'd like you to replicate the picture, please" and an offer to give any revised layouts a once-over, which I was happy to accept to make sure we got it right (which we now have).

Now, I might have been being a little pedantic by this stage, but the fact is that I look after Prescot Cables' website and programme on a voluntary basis. The 6 pages of dos and don'ts for programmes were issued on top of the 8 pages of FAQs and directives discussed elsewhere on this thread. So I've got 14 pages of extra instructions over and above the Rules published in the Handbook to comply with, which seems like quite a burden to put on people with full-time jobs and families.

I will say that my contact at the League is very helpful and the issue was more to do with ommissions from the guidance as opposed to the actual requirements for programme advertising being unreasonable. They're no worse than previous seasons.

That's not the point. The point is that the harder it gets to do something, the less likely people are to do it. That's the point I'm getting to.

I got involved in my home town non-league club at the age of 10 and I've been volunteering in football ever since. This summer has been a non-stop grind to tick boxes and if it weren't for the fact that I know that walking away would create all manner of problems for people who have more than enough on their plates as it is, I would have jacked it in already. I'm getting on with it, for now, in the hope that flagging up how jaded I am becoming will spur the club to find one or more people who have the energy I am running out of early enough that I can perform an orderly handover.


(This post was edited by Beano on Aug 15, 2019, 10:26 PM)


ladderman
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Aug 16, 2019, 1:54 PM

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Re: [Beano] Evo Stik Unstuck [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately

Agreed,
This is highly likely to be my final season doing Stortford's website.
While I get the point about paying someone to film/progamme edit/manage the website, other volunteers then expect to get paid. It's the start of a slippery slope.


DT Snapper
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Aug 16, 2019, 4:44 PM

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In Reply To
Agreed,
This is highly likely to be my final season doing Stortford's website.
While I get the point about paying someone to film/progamme edit/manage the website, other volunteers then expect to get paid. It's the start of a slippery slope.


Like Club Photographers many like me do it totally voluntary to help the clubs we love, most of us do i t for free, with just entry being free. Talking to a few photographers doing local Sport in Dorset its now becoming more & more of a nightmare with most Papers/on line media asking (sometimes just taking) for pictures of this & that and offering a free name credit another topic on its own. You can only expect Volunteers many unpaid to give up their time/effort doing their roles with as much pride in them as can be given, without putting too much on to them before those people have enough and say enough is enough. Sorry for the waffle


Gresleyprog
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Aug 16, 2019, 8:26 PM

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Post #141 of 162 (2680 views)
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Re: [ladderman] Evo Stik Unstuck [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately


In Reply To
Agreed,
This is highly likely to be my final season doing Stortford's website.
While I get the point about paying someone to film/progamme edit/manage the website, other volunteers then expect to get paid. It's the start of a slippery slope.


Perhaps the leagues would rather every club in their set ups subscribe to the ubiquitous and dreadful Pitchero websites. All their rules would then be applied by Pitchero rather than the hardworking volunteers individually.
Perhaps the next step is to get one programme printer who prints every club's programme so they will become all the same with a club volunteer having access to edit one or two pages the rest done by the printer. Maybe Pitchero would consider this as another step to non-league domination?


DonQuixote
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Aug 17, 2019, 8:50 AM

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Post #142 of 162 (2436 views)
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Re: [Beano] Evo Stik Unstuck [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately

I wonder what the ramifications would be, if say, the match programmes
for all Butt-Factor games were sold [or by donation only] outside of the
grounds, a la fanzines back in the day?

Would all the latest petty constraints still have to be adhered to?

As somebody alluded to earlier, it's like dealing with the bastard little
brother of the odious Dataco....




FA Vase semi programme wanted: 2001 Taunton v Clitheroe.



ladderman
Man City Transfer Target!

Aug 17, 2019, 5:14 PM

Posts: 7419
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Post #143 of 162 (2224 views)
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Re: [Gresleyprog] Evo Stik Unstuck [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately

"Perhaps the leagues would rather every club in their set ups subscribe to the ubiquitous and dreadful Pitchero websites."

In the case of the Isthmian, I think it's quite clear that Nick R and his minions would be truly orgasmic if that happened. The main reason that won't happen is that Pitchero is truly awful.

Code



      
    


Beano
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Aug 17, 2019, 8:03 PM

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Post #144 of 162 (2181 views)
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In Reply To
I wonder what the ramifications would be, if say, the match programmes
for all Butt-Factor games were sold [or by donation only] outside of the
grounds, a la fanzines back in the day?

Would all the latest petty constraints still have to be adhered to?


They most certainly would. There's a section of the Standardised Rules (which govern all the Leagues at Steps 1-6) specific to programmes. They are suitably vague as to let each competition do what they like whilst also being prescriptive enough to ensure clubs do enough to tick whichever boxes their League asks them to.

Not only are Northern Premier League clubs unable to go online only, they have to send printed copies of their first two programmes to the Compliance & Commercial Officer. There will be "spot checks" carried out through the season, then all clubs have to send their Easter issue in as well. If I had a current handbook, I'd set out the fines for naughty boys and girls as well.


Beano
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Aug 23, 2019, 12:40 PM

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In Reply To

In Reply To
If I had a current handbook, I'd set out the fines for naughty boys and girls as well.


Apparently, the Handbook is due to be published around mid-September... Mad. In fairness to the NPL, they have supplied a list of Secretaries to their member clubs and there is an online File Store (on Pitchero, natch) where I can get histories and pen-pictures.

The debate on here, coupled with some social media chatter, inspired me to put something in the first Cables programme of the season about how difficult it is for clubs these days. If anyone would like to read it, the full text is at:

https://www.garethcoates.com/...ack-on-the-treadmill


Repoman
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Aug 23, 2019, 3:28 PM

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Post #146 of 162 (1708 views)
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Re: [Beano] Evo Stik Unstuck [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately

The debate on here, coupled with some social media chatter, inspired me to put something in the first Cables programme of the season about how difficult it is for clubs these days. If anyone would like to read it, the full text is at:

https://www.garethcoates.com/...ack-on-the-treadmill


Found myself nodding along sagely as I read your article - probably because I wrote something along the same lines in the programme for Romford's opening Isthmian League game against Canvey Island.

At a slightly higher level, volunteer media people at National League clubs have to put up with strict deadlines to upload video footage, and get abusive emails if they miss deadlines. And that footage can't be used by them for 36 hours after the game. With more and more clubs at Steps 3 & 4 videoing matches, I wonder how long it will be before it becomes compulsory? If that does happen I know that many clubs - mine included - will struggle to comply.

Almost without exception, volunteers in non-League football do what they do through the love of the club they support, and few walk away from those roles without intense provocation. The more responsibilities that get foisted upon these volunteers, and the more draconian the response to any infraction of the rules, the more likely it is that people are going to give up.


TonyD
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Aug 23, 2019, 4:18 PM

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Re: [Repoman] Evo Stik Unstuck [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately

I went to see Tooting & Mitcham during the week. The programme contained comments from the vice Chair saying that the club was firmly against sponsorship by betting companies as it was not appropriate to the club's attitude to youth development. I notice that the programme did not carry the sponsor#s name.
Well done the Terrors!


GRIFFON
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Aug 23, 2019, 8:44 PM

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Re: [Beano] Evo Stik Unstuck [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately

Not only are Northern Premier League clubs unable to go online only, they have to send printed copies of their first two programmes to the Compliance & Commercial Officer.

Same in the top two divisions of the Midland Football League. many clubs send a programme in with the match details. When the league have finished with them they are apparently given to the Programme Award sponsor who then sells them on!
The handbook gives out the same info on programmes for all Steps 1 to 6 and adds that team sheets are not to be counted as programmes.


ladderman
Man City Transfer Target!

Aug 23, 2019, 9:12 PM

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Re: [Beano] Evo Stik Unstuck [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately

Totally agree with your article, accept you've been a bit too nice to the NPL.
Publishing the handbook in September is classic.


hawkwind
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Aug 24, 2019, 12:41 AM

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Post #150 of 162 (1220 views)
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Re: [Beano] Evo Stik Unstuck [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately

I agree with your expressed sentiments. Whether the problem is the FA, Pitchero, or the Leagues, or combination of all three I'm not close enough to say but clearly something has to change. Club volunteers should be being fully supported.

Two specific points.

I'm sure that there isn't a law that places more restrictions on club websites level five and below than on club websites of the top 92. So why are you being subjected to these restrictions?

Age-Gating. Maybe I'm missing something obvious but it strikes me that you can only restrict access to a website by age group if you know the ages of every visitor to your site. This sounds like mandatory registration which I suspect would drive away all but the most dedicated fans. Putting it simply there is no reason for anyone to be obliged to share their personal data with Pitchero in order to access a website.

Finally, thanks for sharing your article. It's a terrific example of why this forum is such a great asset for non-league football.

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