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Home: Non League Football Information: History:
The Watford Treasury: a visual history of a football club

 



wint&kidd
Junior Team Sub

Sep 29, 2018, 2:11 PM

Posts: 19
Location:
Team(s): Watford, Accrington Stanley, Berkhamsted, IOW Speedway

Post #1 of 13 (53438 views)
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The Watford Treasury: a visual history of a football club Can't Post or Reply Privately

This August saw the launch of a new and exciting publication aimed at all Watford supporters with an interest in the club's past. Born through a shared enthusiasm for Watford's heritage, The Watford Treasury is an independent, not-for-profit magazine, looking at what makes a football club so special through images, stories, collections and recollections.

The first volume of The Watford Treasury is available from the Watford Museum gift shop, along Vicarage Road on matchdays or by mail order from https://thewatfordtreasury.co.uk



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Straw Plaiter
Youth Team Sub


Sep 29, 2018, 9:34 PM

Posts: 117
Location: Luton
Team(s): Luton Town

Post #2 of 13 (53376 views)
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Re: [wint&kidd] The Watford Treasury: a visual history of a football club [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately

Has this been launched to mark this year's 120th anniversary of the formation of Watford FC?
Cheers

Brian


wint&kidd
Junior Team Sub

Sep 29, 2018, 10:21 PM

Posts: 19
Location:
Team(s): Watford, Accrington Stanley, Berkhamsted, IOW Speedway

Post #3 of 13 (53355 views)
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Re: [Straw Plaiter] The Watford Treasury: a visual history of a football club [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately

Thanks for your interest in Watford FC, Brian.

I'm afraid 1881 was more than 120 years ago, old chap. Unless you're speaking of Watford Rovers' absorption of St. Mary's?

Can I just say though, straight up, I've read your website and am very impressed at your presentation of your football club's history. I'm sure we can coexist quite happily with our mutually-exclusive interests!

Cheers
Tom



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Straw Plaiter
Youth Team Sub


Oct 3, 2018, 2:16 PM

Posts: 117
Location: Luton
Team(s): Luton Town

Post #4 of 13 (52528 views)
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Re: [wint&kidd] The Watford Treasury: a visual history of a football club [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately

I trust the Watford Treasury is more accurate than your statement that - in 1898 Watford Rovers absorbed Watford St. Mary’s.
As you know from reading the evidence on my website, Watford Rovers ceased to exist in the Summer of 1891 when they were absorbed by the West Herts Club and Ground. Watford St. Mary’s and West Herts amalgamated in 1898 to form a new club, Watford F.C. If you were an independent thinking person you might care to do your own research to corroborate my statements, bust the 1881 myth and enlighten your fellow supporters.
Cheers

Brian


wint&kidd
Junior Team Sub

Oct 3, 2018, 3:20 PM

Posts: 19
Location:
Team(s): Watford, Accrington Stanley, Berkhamsted, IOW Speedway

Post #5 of 13 (52513 views)
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Re: [Straw Plaiter] The Watford Treasury: a visual history of a football club [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately

Hi Brian

I'm sure we can be civil despite our different interests.

Regarding independent thinking, my corroboration is from the Victoria County History of Hertfordshire, published in 1902 very close to the events in question, which clearly describes Watford FC as a successor organisation from the outfit founded by Henry Grover in 1881. Aside from the absorption event in 1898, the original Watford Rovers played under the auspices of the West Herts Club in the early 1890s and endured a name change, not a merger or acquisition, despite some acrimony amongst the players. This event, which I didn't spot written about on your website, is detailed at length in the Watford Observer from the time.

Thank you for your contribution to my post. As trolling goes, it has been slightly more educated than I am accustomed to from twitter.

Best wishes with your research and website.

Tom



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Straw Plaiter
Youth Team Sub


Oct 3, 2018, 9:23 PM

Posts: 117
Location: Luton
Team(s): Luton Town

Post #6 of 13 (52479 views)
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Re: [wint&kidd] The Watford Treasury: a visual history of a football club [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately

The full F.A. committee meeting in May 1898 confirms that Watford St. Mary's and West Herts amalgamated to form a new club, Watford F.C.. Are you saying the full F.A. committee got it wrong?
Cheers

Brian


wint&kidd
Junior Team Sub

Oct 4, 2018, 10:27 PM

Posts: 19
Location:
Team(s): Watford, Accrington Stanley, Berkhamsted, IOW Speedway

Post #7 of 13 (51821 views)
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Re: [Straw Plaiter] The Watford Treasury: a visual history of a football club [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately

Unfortunately, the amalgamation theory would require two extant organisations to have come together.

Watford St Mary's became defunct in 1898, and their registered players therefore immediately became free agents. Five of them were signed by Watford FC as players. Neither those five players, nor the officials under which they had played for St Mary's, had any administrative function in the affairs of Watford FC.



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Straw Plaiter
Youth Team Sub


Oct 5, 2018, 8:48 AM

Posts: 117
Location: Luton
Team(s): Luton Town

Post #8 of 13 (51443 views)
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Re: [wint&kidd] The Watford Treasury: a visual history of a football club [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately

With respect, that makes no sense. If Watford St. Mary’s had become defunct then West Herts would have simply asked the F.A. to approve a name change. As I have already stated, in May 1898 the full F.A. council met and as reported at the time “permission was given to Watford St. Mary’s and West Herts to take the name of Watford Football Club , the two clubs having amalgamated.” The F.A. would clearly have been asked to make this decision and would have wanted the requisite evidence and approval from both clubs officials before putting the matter before the full council.
More evidence from 1898 comes from the Watford Observer of the 7th May 1898 -
“when three-parts of the season was gone, there were whispers of the advantages of amalgamation of the two clubs. That the principle was right few disputed, and the question narrowed itself down to a few minor difficulties. It was ascertained that the executive on both sides regarded the suggestion favourably, and joint meetings of the officials were arranged. The proposals took a definite shape, and very soon amalgamation was a thing accomplished. It was decided, however, that each club should finish off its fixtures. Next season the Watford club will play on the Cassio-Road ground, and one of the chief ideas of the amalgamation is to have a second team of sufficient strength to be an attraction while the first string is engaged elsewhere. The details of the amalgamation scheme we have already given in these columns.
Generally speaking, then, the local football season which has just closed has been a most important one. It has witnessed two steps which have marked fresh epochs - the adoption of professionalism and the amalgamation of West Herts and Watford St. Mary’s.”

So directly from May 1898 you have evidence that the two sets of officials met, negotiated and agreed amalgamation which the F.A. approved and the Watford Observer reported. No mention of absorption. No mention of the premature demise of Watford St. Mary’s. “Amalgamation” has clearly been surgically removed from history. The duo of imposters “absorption” and its sidekick “demise” (of Watford St. Mary’s) have been inserted to open the door firstly to the 1891 formation claim and then to the 1881 claim. Where did this duo come from? Ask yourself where you read it.

Armed with this evidence I hope you understand why I opened this discussion with the question about marking the 120th anniversary of the formation of Watford F.C.. I am not a Luton fan trolling as you assumed. I am on the committee of Hatter’s Heritage (LTFC’s Historical Society), I have disputed Stoke City’s 1863 claim, busted many Luton Town myths, busted the date of the first penalty kick, was the first to unravelled the mysteries of the six yard box, assisted many other club historians, contributed to books, magazines, the historical football kits website, rediscovered many old photos and built up a decent website on Victorian football history - so I am not picking on Watford F.C. - I am picking on skewed history and the disrespect shown to the men of Watford St. Mary’s. It is a pity that I appear to be the only person willing to defend their honour and memory.
Cheers

Brian


MiddxSaint
Youth Team Star


Oct 15, 2018, 1:30 PM

Posts: 325
Location: Hayes
Team(s): St Albans City

Post #9 of 13 (38882 views)
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Re: [Straw Plaiter] The Watford Treasury: a visual history of a football club [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately

Hemel Hempstead's website history page put Watford's formation down as 1898 - http://www.hemelfc.com/news/the-history-of-hemel-hempstead-town-part-1-2355076.html

"The West Herts FA was formed in 1891, along with the formation of the West Herts League. There were seven founding member clubs which included three still around today - these were Watford St Mary's (who merged with West Herts in 1898 to form Watford FC); Kings Langley (our neighbours who currently compete in the Southern League Premier Division) and Apsley End. The first ever West Herts Football League was competed in 1891/92, Apsley End were kitted out in their original colours of claret and blue."


Straw Plaiter
Youth Team Sub


Oct 16, 2018, 6:08 PM

Posts: 117
Location: Luton
Team(s): Luton Town

Post #10 of 13 (38663 views)
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Re: [MiddxSaint] The Watford Treasury: a visual history of a football club [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately

It always has been, and always will be, 1898. I have some sympathy for Tom and his fellow fans as they trusted certain people and now the synthetic 1881 formation date is deeply embedded in the club. It’s a lesson to us all - keep your eyes peeled for skewed history, question everything, speak out.


Straw Plaiter
Youth Team Sub


Nov 19, 2018, 4:16 PM

Posts: 117
Location: Luton
Team(s): Luton Town

Post #11 of 13 (37800 views)
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Re: [Straw Plaiter] The Watford Treasury: a visual history of a football club [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately

I have added a photo of Watford St. Mary's to the Library on my website http://thestrawplaiters.com see the Library then A to Z of clubs.

Their colours, prior to the amalgamation with West Herts on the 15th April 1898, were blue and white stripes.
Cheers

Brian


Straw Plaiter
Youth Team Sub


Oct 25, 2019, 4:22 PM

Posts: 117
Location: Luton
Team(s): Luton Town

Post #12 of 13 (2042 views)
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Re: [wint&kidd] The Watford Treasury: a visual history of a football club [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately

I have revived this thread in order to draw Tom's attention to the part played by Watford St. Mary's in the 1898 amalgamation with West Herts.

http://thestrawplaiters.com/...n-1881-1891-or-1898/

Cheers

Brian


Straw Plaiter
Youth Team Sub


Dec 6, 2019, 9:12 AM

Posts: 117
Location: Luton
Team(s): Luton Town

Post #13 of 13 (710 views)
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Re: [Straw Plaiter] The Watford Treasury: a visual history of a football club [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately

The Historical Kits website has updated their info on Watford to include Watford St. Mary's including their last shirt. http://www.historicalkits.co.uk/Watford/Watford.htm
The essential facts are -
1. Watford St. Mary’s had a healthy balance and were not in financial trouble. West Herts were in deep financial trouble saddled with a huge debt.
2. Watford St. Mary’s did not fold for financial reasons and were not absorbed by West Herts.
3. Watford St. Mary's suggested an amalgamation for the sake of football in Watford - the town could not support two professional clubs.
4. There was an amalgamation between West Herts and Watford St. Mary’s in 1898.
5. Watford St. Mary's players loyally rallied to the cause of football in Watford by signing for the new club in 1898.

The Eminent Victorians section on Historical Kits has been expanded and is also worth a visit.
Cheers

Brian

 
 


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