Coronavirus

Northstandexile

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Even the first figure is highly suspect given that that (a) many of the early 'tests' were not swab tests and (b) it still includes many 'mentioned on death certificate'.

The third figure will probably include many who have died without ever contracting the virus but have missed diagnosis of or treatment for other illnesses because hospitals were effectively closed for several weeks.

Given that it is highly unlikely that a proper audit of all the deaths will be ordered, we shall never know the true number.
what I am saying is that the 63k is the true figure even if folk have not tested or had it on the death certificate. 63,000 have died before their time because of Covid. I agree an extra cancer death is down to Covid because the NHS wasn’t there for the cancer patient because they were dealing with Covid patients Instead.
 

Mr. T

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Indeed, but it gives a greatly exaggerated impression of the virulence and danger of the disease.
 

Northstandexile

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Indeed, but it gives a greatly exaggerated impression of the virulence and danger of the disease.
so are you saying that society should return to normal, the NHS gets over run with elderly Covid patients, meaning cancer patients die before their time because the government haven’t provided enough resources to treat cancer patients as they normally do pre Covid.
 

Mr. T

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No.

And that's the line of questioning that raises the temperature.
 

Ronsdog

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Indeed, but it gives a greatly exaggerated impression of the virulence and danger of the disease.
I'm now even more convinced that the only European nation that acted in the overall best interests of their citizens was Sweden.
See post #552
 
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Chris1963

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I'm now even more convinced that the only European nation that acted in the overall best interests of their citizens was Sweden.
See post #552
Agree with you. Mind you, they still stopped football there!
 

MattRam

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so are you saying that society should return to normal, the NHS gets over run with elderly Covid patients, meaning cancer patients die before their time because the government haven’t provided enough resources to treat cancer patients as they normally do pre Covid.
I am currently undergoing chemotherapy and radiotherapy, the NHS are still working where needed.
My ex has had to wait for an operation she desperately needs though.
The excess deaths figure is highly volatile and often determined by factors such as a cold winter or a virulent strain of flu so to attribute it to Covid-19 is simply nonsense.
To me I think the best we can do is let as many people as possible get back to normality whilst supporting those who need to shield.
The economic consequences of not doing so will cost more lives and misery, well in my opinion
And the Nightingale hospitals weren't used, so still some spare capacity, it's hard but I think we are just going to have to expose ourselves to it somewhat as that's how you get the herd immunity, some of us will die, myself being quite vulnerable due to suppressed immune system, but I can't see any other way out other than finding a vaccine
 
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jon b

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"We are just going to have to expose ourselves to it"

I think I'll pass on that.
 

Lord Lucan

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And the Nightingale hospitals weren't used, so still some spare capacity, it's hard but I think we are just going to have to expose ourselves to it somewhat as that's how you get the herd immunity, some of us will die, myself being quite vulnerable due to suppressed immune system, but I can't see any other way out other than finding a vaccine
A realistic point of view, in my opinion. You appear to be one of the more vunerable people, but the vast majority of people who do catch the virus experience mild or even no symptons - latest figures from Worldometer show 99% of current cases are in mild condition and 95% of closed cases as recovered/discharged with, obviously, a front loading of deaths towards the start of the outbreak

Exposure doesn't means you go out to deliberatley get it. Basic good practice of regular hand washing, maintaining the "enhanced" cleaning of commonly touched surfaces, not getting unnecessarily close to people and so on should continue.

Of course, anyone who wants to avoid possible exposure to the virus is free to stay at home with all the windows firmly shut until a vaccine is found ... they should bear in mind, though, that even opening the door to take in delivered food will potentially expose them to the virus. They might also consider that a flu vaccine has been around for years and yet thousands die from flu every year, so the 'wait for a vaccine' approach is unlikely to be foolproof either.

>>>
I tend to agree with Ronsdog:
I'm now even more convinced that the only European nation that acted in the overall best interests of their citizens was Sweden.
 
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Mr. T

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They might also consider that a flu vaccine has been around for years and yet thousands die from flu every year, so the 'wait for a vaccine' approach is unlikely to be foolproof either.
2014-15 – 28,000
2017-18 – 26,000

 

jon b

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Exposure doesn't means you go out to deliberatley get it. Basic good practice of regular hand washing, maintaining the "enhanced" cleaning of commonly touched surfaces, not getting unnecessarily close to people and so on should continue.

Of course, anyone who wants to avoid possible exposure to the virus is free to stay at home with all the windows firmly shut until a vaccine is found ... they should bear in mind, though, that even opening the door to take in delivered food will potentially expose them to the virus. They might also consider that a flu vaccine has been around for years and yet thousands die from flu every year, so the 'wait for a vaccine' approach is unlikely to be foolproof either.

>>>
I tend to agree with Ronsdog:
I've spectated at three junior football matches recently, been in pubs, shops, chemists, bank, GP surgery and visited friends and relatives.

In all that I've tried pretty hard to do all the obvious things to avoid exposure to the virus. It would seem strange to deliberately risk exposure.

Until a vaccine is produced (and hopefully the Oxford team's efforts will be as successful as current reports indicate) it seems sensible to try to live as normal lives as possible but take the recommended precautions.

As for Sweden the jury's still out. I suspect the debate as to which governments followed the best strategy will go on for years.
 

Lord Lucan

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Until a vaccine is produced (and hopefully the Oxford team's efforts will be as successful as current reports indicate) it seems sensible to try to live as normal lives as possible but take the recommended precautions.
I agree, as long as the recommended precautions are grounded in evidence and are not seemingly made up on a whim and actually make things worse.

A good example of the latter was when a shop near me introduced a one way system which requires you to walk up and down three aisles, following or passing any number of people on the way and spending longer than necessary in there, when previously you could go straight up to the till to purchase the one item you wanted without coming near anyone other than the cashier, and be out again in seconds. When I queried the arrangement I was told the one-way system was to ensure they passed the "covid secure" test (whatever that may be). As it is not possible to bypass the one way system because the direct access to the till is now blocked off, the only way to avoid unecessary proximity to other shoppers is to not use the shop - which was my solution.
 

buncranaboy

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paulh66

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⁩ you’re our MP. Please explain why the first picture is more acceptable than a few fans socially distancing? Non league clubs are already starved of cash and this current rule is slowly killing us.
Is anyone actually saying the first picture is acceptable? Unless the angle's deceptive, it seems to be of people breaking the rules.

The second picture is comparable with beaches before they were allowed to open up (well, kind of), and that's only because we're awaiting approval of the proposed new rules that'll finally allow spectators. Which may or may not also end up being routinely broken by covidiots!
 

Unicorn

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Is anyone actually saying the first picture is acceptable? Unless the angle's deceptive, it seems to be of people breaking the rules.

The second picture is comparable with beaches before they were allowed to open up (well, kind of), and that's only because we're awaiting approval of the proposed new rules that'll finally allow spectators. Which may or may not also end up being routinely broken by covidiots!
Of course we have no way of telling how many of those people on the beach have subsequently died.
 

Lord Lucan

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Often the pictures of beaches have been taken at an angle that makes them look more crowded than they actually are. There was drone footage a few weeks ago clearly showing this - very busy but nothing like shoulder to shoulder.

Why people would want to go to a busy beach Is beyond me but if they choose to, as they are entitled to do, I don’t get why people feel the need to throw insults at them. I was always taught that if you resort to insults you have lost the argument.
 

Unicorn

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Often the pictures of beaches have been taken at an angle that makes them look more crowded than they actually are. There was drone footage a few weeks ago clearly showing this - very busy but nothing like shoulder to shoulder.

Why people would want to go to a busy beach Is beyond me but if they choose to, as they are entitled to do, I don’t get why people feel the need to throw insults at them. I was always taught that if you resort to insults you have lost the argument.
Because they could give the disease to others.
There is no argument. People will do as they please.
Only Boris and co have to power to stop them if they evoke the proper emergency powers and that resist doing it.
They clearly take the view that possibly Autumn will come early and the beaches and parks will be deserted for a few months.
Problem solve without getting too draconian about it all.
 
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paulh66

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Often the pictures of beaches have been taken at an angle that makes them look more crowded than they actually are. There was drone footage a few weeks ago clearly showing this - very busy but nothing like shoulder to shoulder.

Why people would want to go to a busy beach Is beyond me but if they choose to, as they are entitled to do, I don’t get why people feel the need to throw insults at them. I was always taught that if you resort to insults you have lost the argument.
Looks like a straightforward answer to a disingenuous question has touched a disingenuous nerve.
Let's hope the covidiots over the weekend haven't contributed to Alvechurch and the rest of non league football losing the argument.
 

Unicorn

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The chances of catching the disease outdoors is all but nil and especially so on the beaches where the vast majority will be young.
Yes its mild in young people but they can give it to others.
Lets hope your right because if your wrong they will not live to be old.
 

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