Politics Thread

Yatesman

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If you look at the number of postings (305) on the General Election thread compared to the other threads it's easy to conclude there is a desire for a political platform.
I thought it was a bit heavy-handed of SteveW to arbitrarily shut down the GE thread and don't accept the reason he used.
Aggressive disagreement between posters is not the same as personal attacks. Although I agree personal atttacks on politcians are not a substitute for incisive political comment
Let's see if we can reboot the poitical discussion without the vitriol and dubious crystal ball gazing.

The big domestic discussions unfolding will be the Labour leadership battle, the fight for a second IndyRef in Scotland and Brexit developments.
Internationally , Climate Politics, Trump, Trade wars and Russia/Chinese/Iranian expansionism will no doubt dominate.
 

Part-Timer

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Wouldn't it be better to have separate threads for each of these topics so that those of us with no interest in one or more of them don't have to wade through them to find postings about issues that are of interest?
 

PaulC

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The big domestic discussions unfolding will be the Labour leadership battle, the fight for a second IndyRef in Scotland and Brexit developments.
Internationally , Climate Politics, Trump, Trade wars and Russia/Chinese/Iranian expansionism will no doubt dominate.
I think it's make or break time for the Labour Party.

Long-Bailey, Rayner, Nandy are lightweights. I see three credible leaders, Starmer, Benn and Cooper. To my mind it has to be Starmer - who is the absolute antithesis of Johnson.

Choose the wrong leader and they are doomed.
 

007Dale

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I think it's make or break time for the Labour Party.

Long-Bailey, Rayner, Nandy are lightweights. I see three credible leaders, Starmer, Benn and Cooper. To my mind it has to be Starmer - who is the absolute antithesis of Johnson.

Choose the wrong leader and they are doomed.
Anyone but the odious Thornberry.
I’m not sure it should be anyone on Corbyn’s front bench. Benn or Cooper are good options.
 

PaulC

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I don't Thornberry is a leader, but why is she odious?
 

R.S.Cavendish

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As a Blairite my thoughts are that whoever Labour elects as leader will only resign after the 2024 thrashing. Then you will get a leader who just might make a difference.
 

derekn

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For Blairite, read Tory. It's pointless having a Labour Party that has no distinguishable left-wing policies.
 

007Dale

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As a Blairite my thoughts are that whoever Labour elects as leader will only resign after the 2024 thrashing. Then you will get a leader who just might make a difference.
Fundamentally, this country is not left wing. The last true left-wing Government was elected 45 Years ago.

Under our voting system, both parties need to occupy some of the centre ground. Failure to do so results in the sort of defeat we’ve just seen. Particularly for the left-leaning parties, as England is (if pushed) going to go to the right.

Now, there is room for a hard-left party a in PR system. You could envisage a left-leaning coalition included a hard-left party, where they might be able to negotiate getting one of their main policies through (say nationalising the railways) . The Lib Dems did something similar in 2010 (although maybe picking AV over tuition fees wasn’t the smartest move).

So, the realities of our voting system mean a socialist agenda is probably never going to get in and therefore a move to occupy some of the centre ground is needed.
 

TFW

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As a lifelong socialist the election result was very disheartening. However, the country voted for Johnson and his lies so they will have to live with that. Unfortunately, so will we. The one cloud on the horizon for me, having lived in Scotland for nigh on 30 years is that self determination for the country is now top of the political agenda again.

The original Referendum sparked off genuine political debate, the likes of which I'd never encountered before, and it was really invigorating. Am desperately hoping for the same again....eventually.
 

Yatesman

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My MP swears her oath to Queen Elspeth (I'm sure Yatesman will appreciate it)

Ha ha........... Not a problem with that, except nobody in Scotland actually speaks like that ,that I'm aware of .
Obviously Scots is widely included in local dialects , but no-one speaks pure Scots, so far as I'm aware..........Not even in Hawick!

I actually liked the MP who gave her oath in Urdu.
 

Yatesman

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Fundamentally, this country is not left wing. The last true left-wing Government was elected 45 Years ago.

Under our voting system, both parties need to occupy some of the centre ground. Failure to do so results in the sort of defeat we’ve just seen. Particularly for the left-leaning parties, as England is (if pushed) going to go to the right.

Now, there is room for a hard-left party a in PR system. You could envisage a left-leaning coalition included a hard-left party, where they might be able to negotiate getting one of their main policies through (say nationalising the railways) . The Lib Dems did something similar in 2010 (although maybe picking AV over tuition fees wasn’t the smartest move).

So, the realities of our voting system mean a socialist agenda is probably never going to get in and therefore a move to occupy some of the centre ground is needed.
Yes I did try to say this during the GE that Labour voters are not necessarily left wingers, ar at best are barely left wing.
That's why their extremist Socialist inspired manifesto failed to hit home with voters.
 

SteveW

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Yes I did try to say this during the GE that Labour voters are not necessarily left wingers, ar at best are barely left wing.
That's why their extremist Socialist inspired manifesto failed to hit home with voters.
I don't think there was much wrong with their manifesto. However it was trumped (no pun intended) by the GET BREXIT DONE slogan that was flogged at everyone repeatedly no matter what question was being asked.

There is public support for nationalising the railways for sure, for removing charity status from private schools, for raising the minimum wage, to stop raising the retirement age, on climate change to reduce the time length on targets, to scrap Universal Credit which is well documented to simply not be working, to protect workers rights at least to EU standards etc etc

I mean those policies can be described as 'extreme Socialist' if you want as though that is a dirty phrase but I don't see how anyone can argue against them in a fair and caring society.

We're heading for a no deal Brexit now which is why the ERG group are so happy to support Johnson following private meetings. We will have a year of blaming the EU for being intransigent before we leave without a deal. You can quote me on this in a year from now.
 

007Dale

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I don't think there was much wrong with their manifesto. However it was trumped (no pun intended) by the GET BREXIT DONE slogan that was flogged at everyone repeatedly no matter what question was being asked.
I have to disagree with you on this point, but clearly it’s only an opinion - one I’m surprised to find myself sharing with Tony Blair.

The Manifesto was super-charged socialism, which I doubt will ever get through the electorate in this country. If the Labour Party only blame Brexit, then we’re into ten years of a Boris Premiership.

There may well be support for nationalising Railways, but doing Water, Broadband, Mail and Energy at the same time was just not credible.

As I said in my earlier post, to get elected in this two party system, both parties need to flirt with the centre ground. Absolutely go for a few ‘socialist’ ideas, but not the whole manifesto.

Only my opinion, of course. If this thread is still going in 2024, feel free to remind me of this if a socialist manifesto sweeps to power!
 

SteveW

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My point is that it wasn't the manifesto that was the problem.... it was the stuff added on afterwards like free broadband that wasn't in the manifesto.

If Labour had stuck to the manifesto and had a much much clearer Brexit policy because even I as a Labour supporter (not member) didn't understand it then they may have had half a chance.

Once we have a no deal Brexit and the problems that will cause the Tory party who won't be able to blame Labour for that and the economic crash 10 years ago then yes I believe I will be reminding you in 2024 if I come out of my fridge by then :p
 

Yatesman

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My point is that it wasn't the manifesto that was the problem.... it was the stuff added on afterwards like free broadband that wasn't in the manifesto.

If Labour had stuck to the manifesto and had a much much clearer Brexit policy because even I as a Labour supporter (not member) didn't understand it then they may have had half a chance.

Once we have a no deal Brexit and the problems that will cause the Tory party who won't be able to blame Labour for that and the economic crash 10 years ago then yes I believe I will be reminding you in 2024 if I come out of my fridge by then :p
As an avowed Socialist it's understandable that the manifesto appealed to you but therein lies Labour's fundamental problem.

The majority of the electorate are pragmatic before they're idealistic.

The manifesto just didn't appear realistic. ....... Nor did it respect the result of the referendum.

And there you have it , when added to Corbyn's Passive Aggressive snarling ire ,McDonnell's disingenuity and Thornberry's odious, hateful pro-Corbyn take on everything , a woman who regularlly gets ripped to shreds by journalists only to pop up hours later spouting the same discredited b/s.

Labour has to move back to the centre and find it's own usp instead of slagging of Boris as though that a political movement makes.
 

Atavistic

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I think the interesting thing to observe moving forwards will be what kind of leader Labour choose next: will they go with another "Corbynite" socialist or will they move back towards the "Blairite" side of the party?

I think a large part of that will be determined by how Labour react to the election result. On the one hand, they could stick their heads in the sand and blame Brexit, the media and even the electorate for their defeat, or they could focus on figuring out what they actually did wrong and how to regain the trust and votes of the working classes (rather than just arrogantly assuming they'll come back without any effort post-Brexit).

If Labour want to be a credible opposition party again, I think they need to do the latter, but based on the Momentum part of the party I think they'll ignore reality and double down instead. That leftist fringe of the party seem to me to be in their echo chambers, to the point that they can't even fathom that anyone could disagree with theyr policies.

I think the impact of a new leader not being Jeremy Corbyn could be interesting as well, as it seems that quite a lot of staunch Labour voters changed to the Conservatives in this election as they felt that they could not support Jeremy Corbyn as leader.
This kind of loops back to the original point, but from a slightly different angle: will just getting rid of Corbyn be enough for Labour to regain votes in their traditional working-class heartlands, or will they need to move away from his leftist policies to regain their trust?

As for me, I voted Conservative again, but this time I'm more confident that the government can actually deliver Brexit in some form. That's not my only interest by any means, but I think it's absolutely important to sort that out one way or another so as to provide some degree of certainty for the economy and to allow the focus to shift back to the pressing domestic issues.

For my vote in future elections, that will be be Boris Johnson's main litmus test rather than Brexit.
 

PaulC

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My point is that it wasn't the manifesto that was the problem.... it was the stuff added on afterwards like free broadband that wasn't in the manifesto.

If Labour had stuck to the manifesto and had a much much clearer Brexit policy because even I as a Labour supporter (not member) didn't understand it then they may have had half a chance.
Free broadband was in the manifesto, P53.
 

Part-Timer

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There is public support for nationalising the railways for sure, for removing charity status from private schools, for raising the minimum wage, to stop raising the retirement age, on climate change to reduce the time length on targets, to scrap Universal Credit which is well documented to simply not be working, to protect workers rights at least to EU standards etc etc
Agreed. However, much as we like these things we realise that we will have to pay for them. Politicians need to tell us how much it will cost us - not just say that large corporations will pay for it in extra taxes. Ultimately we know that we pay. Be honest with how much these nice ideas will cost us so that we can judge whether they are value for money. Have the guts to stand up and say, "We want to do x and it will add y to your tax bill. Vote for us if you think that's a good idea." Not being clear on cost makes the ideas sound too good to be true and if something sounds too good to be true ...... we vote for other lot.
 

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